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6 years ago  ::  Dec 11, 2008 - 1:49PM #11
Anesis
Posts: 1,542

REteach wrote:

Again, it is really not the words that are the prayer.  The words just provide a background.  I really hate to use the word "mantra" because I know it will be misunderstood, but that is kind of the idea. Repeating the words provides a calming background to put oneself in touch with God and contemplate how God interacts in the world.  It isn't really a prayer in itself. It might be more like playing religious music in the background while you talk to God.



Deep breathing and meditating on the Word do the same thing.....

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6 years ago  ::  Dec 11, 2008 - 3:08PM #12
tawonda
Posts: 4,367
It's the same principle, I think, behind the repetitions in contemporary "praise" music.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 11, 2008 - 8:31PM #13
REteach
Posts: 14,429
[QUOTE=Anesis;949959]Deep breathing and meditating on the Word do the same thing.....[/QUOTE]

Well, it is not a method of prayer I choose, either.  However, just because a certain mode of prayer doesn't touch me doesn't mean it doesn't work for others. 

And some would claim that deep breathing and meditation is too Buddhist. 

I think the important thing is that in our hearts, we are reaching out to God.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 13, 2008 - 8:20AM #14
tawonda
Posts: 4,367
POC: I am an almost 50-year-old Lutheran Christian born/raised/catechized in the LCMS and (after an interesting meander in and out of churchgoing) am now a rostered lay minsiter in the ELCA.  I think I know a little more about Martin Luther than you do.

FIrst point: Roman Catholics are Christians. They are Roman Catholic Christians. My observation is that persons who frequent this forum have a great obsession with trying to kick persons they think are theologically/spiritually unworthy off the Christianity bus, but that's really not your job, is it.  Try to wrap your head around the idea that Christianity is a process; that some Christians are in one spot in their spiritual formation while others are at a different spot; that God's power, and not where we stand along the line of being theologically informed or "good" or emotionally engaged is what saves us (one of those Reformation-emphasized ideas, by the way).

Luther is also not the only person who translated the Bible into the vernacular of the people. I believe Wycliffe preceded him in this endeavor, in England.  And it should be pointed out that, in historical context, only a tiny percentage of the population could read anything in any language, so the idea that suddenly millions of peasants and other uneducated people ran to the nearest Barnes and Noble for Bibles of their own is a bit naive. Most people received the Word by hearing, because that's all they could do. It took time for the innovation of the printing press to lead to greater literacy among people, just as it's taken years after the advent of the personal computer for a tipping point of the population to become computer literate to any degree.

As far as Roman Catholics not studying their Bibles "enough" -- I'm wondering, especially in light of polls I've read about biblical literacy among a largely Protestant population, if Roman Catholics have the market cornered on biblical illiteracy among Christians. I'm thinking not. It's also interesting that, as long as you're talking about hearing Scripture in worship, a recent study showed that the worship services of liturgical churches -- RC, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, other churches using a lectionary for Scripture lessons and sermon texts during worship and whose liturgies are taken almost entirely out of Scripture -- had a greater quantity and variety of Scripture used in them than non-denominational churches that don't have that type of Scriptural scaffolding for their services. Hmmm.

The RC churches I know have Bible studies. The Vatican encourages Bible study. RC base community Bible studies in Latin America, especially are an important aspect of both religious formation and social action there. REteach, who's responded on this forum, has experience in RC religious formation and can probably give you a better picture of how contemporary Roman Catholics engage Scripture.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 17, 2008 - 8:49AM #15
REteach
Posts: 14,429
(((POC)))

I'm so sorry about your father.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 20, 2008 - 2:12PM #16
voice-crying
Posts: 7,222
Prayer & praying boils down to: who you follow! Who guides you? 
Is it the Word of God or is it the traditions and rituals of man!

"Luk 11:1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
Luk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
Luk 11:3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
Luk 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil."

"Main article: Rosary
The best known example of a rosary based prayer is simply called "The Holy Rosary" and involves contemplation on five rosary mysteries, while Our Father, Hail Mary and Glory be to the Father prayers are recited.[2]

This rosary prayer goes back several centuries and there are differing views among experts on its exact history.[3] In the sixteenth century, Pope Pius V established the current form of the original 15 mysteries for this rosary and they remained so until the 20th century.[4] Pope John Paul II extended the mysteries in this rosary during his reign, while keeping the original mysteries intact."
"Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof."Proverbs 18:21
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 21, 2008 - 8:29AM #17
tawonda
Posts: 4,367
Two observations:

1. Jesus was an observant Jew who went to synagogue and the Temple. As such he would have participated in the ritual, liturgical practices of those contexts.

2. Evangelical churches may not use "smells and bells," but they all follow their own orders of worship and have their own rituals -- the "altar call," the public testimonies, behaviors during music -- that are...ahem...cultural artifacts.  Worship of any kind involves ritual. Ritual is not a bad thing, as long as it remains a means and not an end.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 21, 2008 - 1:07PM #18
voice-crying
Posts: 7,222
I have often said that Jesus obeyed the Mosaic Law; I should have said that He acknowledged the Mosaic Law; for the law was made for those of us with flaws.  The Jew and the rest of us had to have guidlines to abide by, otherwise they/we would lean on our own ideas of what is right and what is wrong.  Remember when there was no law and the Judges ruled Israel and everyone did whatever they thought was best for them and their families?

Jesus did go to the temple but, Jesus did not offer sacrifices because He was without sin; sacrifices/rituals are for the benefit of those [with] sin, not those without sin.  Even the priests offered sacrifices for their own sin and the sin of the masses (back then).

It is amazing that on the 14th of Nisan the day that the lamb was to be slain in preparation of the following seven feast days that would start on the 15th, Jesus didn't have His followers kill a lamb, instead they met in a room and shared their last meal together.  Was the lamb there?  Yes, Jesus is the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world.  Was the Lamb dead in the upper room?  No, Jesus was still alive until the next day. 

There is no ritual in the New Testament for any follower of Christ to perform; there should be an order in a Church service (of course) but, God has not required that we perform a rite.  We are told to join together in fellowship to praise and worship God.
"Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof."Proverbs 18:21
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 21, 2008 - 1:19PM #19
Anesis
Posts: 1,542
I think every religion has its own set of rituals, as well as their own ideas of how strictly one should adhere to them. Evangelicals don't seem to place as much importance on ritual as some other religions. For example, we have a ritual of baptism, but it is not a requirement; we do it out of our own conviction to obedience. However, baptism in some other churches is almost like a requirement...it is a "given" that members will simply do it because that is the way it's always been done, no questions asked. Likewise with prayer - some religions will pray rosary, while Evangelicals pray in the name of Jesus. All religions have rituals....
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