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Switch to Forum Live View The Divine Messiah ?
6 years ago  ::  Dec 04, 2008 - 9:13PM #1
Idbc
Posts: 4,597
It is my understanding that Messianic Jews believe that Jesus was "The Christ" 
aka "THE ANNOINTED ONE" aka "THE" MESSIAH. 

But do you consider Jesus to be "THE" Divine Son of God"? 

Do you consider the New Testament to be "scripture" ?
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 05, 2008 - 3:41AM #2
Shlomo613
Posts: 131
[QUOTE=IDBC;936189]It is my understanding that Messianic Jews believe that Jesus was "The Christ" 
aka "THE ANNOINTED ONE" aka "THE" MESSIAH.



There are varied types of MJ just as there are varied types of Christians. There are not very many MJ who are on B-Net, not surprising as there are not many MJ in the world, as a minority within a minority. Myself, I am an ex-MJ and can speak with some experience, even tho a bit out-of-date. The Jewish Messiah is typically expected to be a Triumphant King who brings peace, but obviously those expectations can't be credited to Yeshua in any honest way.

However, actually the messiah is depicted in two ways in Jewish tradition; the Davidic King of course but also as the Suffering Servant (Moshiah ben Yosef, in Hebrew) of Isaiah 53:3-5

MJ who are not puppets of Christianity focus on this second role, as the one that is worth considering at all.

But do you consider Jesus to be "THE" Divine Son of God"?

Again, MJ who are not Christian pets would NOT consider him any more Divine or a Son of G-d than any other human. Certainly not to be prayed to, that is idolatry.

Do you consider the New Testament to be "scripture" ?[/QUOTE]The NT was written well after the fact by Roman gentiles, so short answer is no. As a whole it's not 'scripture', from the viewpoint I already explain. However, it does contain some teachings of Yeshua, such as the Sermon on the Mount, so has some value.

NOT Divine, and not the Messiah in the way often portrayed.

JMHO

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6 years ago  ::  Dec 05, 2008 - 12:10PM #3
Idbc
Posts: 4,597
Howdy Shlomo


Shlomo613 wrote:



There are varied types of MJ just as there are varied types of Christians. There are not very many MJ who are on B-Net, not surprising as there are not many MJ in the world, as a minority within a minority. Myself, I am an ex-MJ and can speak with some experience, even tho a bit out-of-date. The Jewish Messiah is typically expected to be a Triumphant King who brings peace, but obviously those expectations can't be credited to Yeshua in any honest way.

However, actually the messiah is depicted in two ways in Jewish tradition; the Davidic King of course but also as the Suffering Servant (Moshiah ben Yosef, in Hebrew) of Isaiah 53:3-5



Thank you for you response.  It is my understanding that  most religious Jews are "messanic"  in that they are awaiting the return of  "the" messiah either the Suffering Sevant or the Triumphant King.   So how are "Messianic" Jews different from....other Jews who are religious ? 

I was told bu a Jew that Isa 53:3-5 was a reference to Israel and not to Yeshua.



Shlomo613 wrote:

MJ who are not puppets of Christianity focus on this second role, as the one that is worth considering at all.

Again, MJ who are not Christian pets would NOT consider him any more Divine or a Son of G-d than any other human. Certainly not to be prayed to, that is idolatry



By "puppets of Christianity" are you referring to "Jews for Jesus"?

.

Shlomo613 wrote:

The NT was written well after the fact by Roman gentiles, so short answer is no. As a whole it's not 'scripture', from the viewpoint I already explain. However, it does contain some teachings of Yeshua, such as the Sermon on the Mount, so has some value.



It is my understanding that Saul aka St. Paul was a Jew(or half Jewish?)pharisse before he became a.....heretic(?). 

I have also heard that at least some Jews consider Yeshua to have been a pharisee and a rabbi.

Shalom

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6 years ago  ::  Dec 05, 2008 - 12:10PM #4
Idbc
Posts: 4,597
Howdy Shlomo


Shlomo613 wrote:



There are varied types of MJ just as there are varied types of Christians. There are not very many MJ who are on B-Net, not surprising as there are not many MJ in the world, as a minority within a minority. Myself, I am an ex-MJ and can speak with some experience, even tho a bit out-of-date. The Jewish Messiah is typically expected to be a Triumphant King who brings peace, but obviously those expectations can't be credited to Yeshua in any honest way.

However, actually the messiah is depicted in two ways in Jewish tradition; the Davidic King of course but also as the Suffering Servant (Moshiah ben Yosef, in Hebrew) of Isaiah 53:3-5



Thank you for you response.  It is my understanding that  most religious Jews are "messanic"  in that they are awaiting the return of  "the" messiah either the Suffering Sevant or the Triumphant King.   So how are "Messianic" Jews different from....other Jews who are religious ? 

I was told bu a Jew that Isa 53:3-5 was a reference to Israel and not to Yeshua.



Shlomo613 wrote:

MJ who are not puppets of Christianity focus on this second role, as the one that is worth considering at all.

Again, MJ who are not Christian pets would NOT consider him any more Divine or a Son of G-d than any other human. Certainly not to be prayed to, that is idolatry



By "puppets of Christianity" are you referring to "Jews for Jesus"?

.

Shlomo613 wrote:

The NT was written well after the fact by Roman gentiles, so short answer is no. As a whole it's not 'scripture', from the viewpoint I already explain. However, it does contain some teachings of Yeshua, such as the Sermon on the Mount, so has some value.



It is my understanding that Saul aka St. Paul was a Jew(or half Jewish?)pharisse before he became a.....heretic(?). 

I have also heard that at least some Jews consider Yeshua to have been a pharisee and a rabbi.

Shalom

HAVE A THINKING DAY MAY REASON GUIDE YOU
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2008 - 4:43AM #5
Shlomo613
Posts: 131
[QUOTE=IDBC;937241]Thank you for you response.  It is my understanding that  most religious Jews are "messanic"  in that they are awaiting the return of  "the" messiah either the Suffering Sevant or the Triumphant King.   So how are "Messianic" Jews different from....other Jews who are religious ? 



Most Jews are awaiting the Messiah,  Messianic or not. There are other concepts of the 'Suffering Servant' Messiah, one of which is that he is contemporary with the Davidic Messiah and dies as the Davidic age begins.

This seems strange tho, that one Age has it's figurehead at the END while the other ushers in the Age at the beginning, where you'd expect!

I was told bu a Jew that Isa 53:3-5 was a reference to Israel and not to Yeshua.



He was correct. How is this possible?

Israel !!

What do I mean, Israel? Do I mean: the country of Israel, the land of Israel, Eretz Yisrael? Or do I mean the People of Israel, Am Yisrael, the Jews? Or, do I mean Jacob, Israel, the man? ALL THREE ARE ISRAEL!

It's the same concept with Moshiach. There is an Age of Moshiach. We are in the Age of Moshiach ben Yosef, also known as Galut Edom. This age ends when the Age of Moshach ben David begins. There is a People of Moshiach, The Jews, likewise now Moshiach ben Yosef (Suffering Servant) but one day Moshiach ben David. Of course, there is also Moshiach the man, who ushers in the Age and is the focal point of the transition.

This is how my Rebbi explained it, I hope I made it clear enough.

By "puppets of Christianity" are you referring to "Jews for Jesus"?



Yes, there is a wide spectrum of MJ. On the one end are J4J and 'Hebrew Christians' which are for all intents and purposes Christian, with only a thin veneer of Jewishness. Judaism is only cultural to them. At the other end of the spectrum is non-Christian MJ who only follow the teachings of Yeshua which are in harmony with Judaism.

It is my understanding that Saul aka St. Paul was a Jew(or half Jewish?)pharisse before he became a.....heretic(?). 

I have also heard that at least some Jews consider Yeshua to have been a pharisee and a rabbi.

Paul never met Yeshua and was a bitter rival of those who did, but his faction won out and we all know the winners write the history books and favor themselves. There is no prominent opinion about Yeshua among non-MJ Jews. AFAIK

Shalom

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6 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2009 - 1:10PM #6
Bekka
Posts: 1

Can anyone provide a Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 9, especially Isaiah 9.6 which seems to refer to a child being referred to as God? Also, is this passage considered messianic?  Does anyone have access to commentaries or a deprogrammer who can explain this?


Isa 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Be

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6 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2009 - 3:26PM #7
LeahOne
Posts: 16,463

There are any number of sites online which can provide that information - JewsforJudaism is one.  Try a search for 'Jewish apologetics'.....


And if you go to the 'Discuss Evangelical Christianity' board, there are a couple of LONG threads which include posts by a lovely lady whose ID is 'theprinterlady'.


 


Not trying to be abrupt with you, Bekka - just sort fo sqished for time right now.  Back later with more details....


 

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 03, 2009 - 9:37AM #8
Yehoshua
Posts: 3

Apr 17, 2009 -- 1:10PM, Bekka wrote:


Can anyone provide a Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 9, especially Isaiah 9.6 which seems to refer to a child being referred to as God? Also, is this passage considered messianic?  Does anyone have access to commentaries or a deprogrammer who can explain this?


Isa 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Be




El (the word for God) can mean exalted, and Yo-etz means "Helper" not "mighty".  "His" shouldn't be capitalized.  It's metaphorical, and doesn't refer to God.

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 29, 2009 - 2:54PM #9
Anders Branderud
Posts: 42

 


IDBC wrote: “I have also heard that at least some Jews consider Yeshua to have been a pharisee and a rabbi. “


I am not a “messianic Jew”, I (le-havdil) practise meta-orthodox Judaism.


First of all, let’s start with this important distinction: “No one can follow two polar-opposite masters — the authentic, historical, pro-Torah 1st-century Ribi from Nazareth and the 4th-century (post-135 C.E.), arch-antithesis anti-Torah apostasy developed by the Hellenists (namely the Sadducees and Roman pagans who conspired to kill Ribi Yәhoshua [ha-Mashiakh (the Messiah) from Nazareth], displaced his original followers and redacted the NT).” (quote: Netzarims website; with a little addition of mine)


A logical analysis (found here: Netzarim) of the earliest manusscripts (including the logical implications of the research by Ben-Gurion Univ. Prof. of Linguistics Elisha Qimron of Dead Sea Scroll 4Q MMT) of “the gospel of Matthew”, implies that Ribi Yehoshua was a Perushi (Pharisee). Ribi Yehoshua ha-Mashiakh (the Messiah) from Nazareth was called a Ribi and only the Perushim had Ribis. So yes, if you mean Ribi Yehoshua, then according to a historical analysis he was a Perushi Ribi (Pharisee Ribi).


 


Since NT contains anti-Torah statements the logical conclusion is that Ribi Yehoshuas talmidim (apprentice-students) Netzarim never accepted NT.


Anders Branderud


 

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 29, 2009 - 2:58PM #10
Anders Branderud
Posts: 42

Apr 17, 2009 -- 1:10PM, Bekka wrote:


Can anyone provide a Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 9, especially Isaiah 9.6 which seems to refer to a child being referred to as God? Also, is this passage considered messianic?  Does anyone have access to commentaries or a deprogrammer who can explain this?


Isa 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Be




Hello, Here is the correct translation of Yeshayahu 9:5: (source: www.netzarim.co.il ; “History museum”; “Mashiakh” (top menu); Messianic prophecies (In this page you will find the motivation of why Yeshayahu 9:5 must be translated in that way.):


“(wa-yiqrâ shәmo Pëlë yoeitz Eil Jibor; avi-ad sar- shâlom; “and he called his name ‘Wonder,’ a counselor of Eil Jibor; My Father is until [i.e. forever], a minister of peace”).



Best regards, Anders Branderud

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