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7 years ago  ::  Feb 02, 2008 - 2:24PM #1
newmuslimlady
Posts: 176
What the Qur'an and Sunnah say about different "Sects" in Islam.

"It is He (Allah), who has named you MUSLIMS.." [22:78]

And hold fast, all of you TOGETHER, to the Rope of Allah(SWT), and be not divided among yourselves, and remember Allah's Favor on you, for you were enemies one to another but He joined your hearts together, so that, by His Grace, you became brethren (in Islamic Faith), and you were on the brink of a pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus Allah(SWT) makes His Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.,) clear to you, that you may be guided." [Al Imran 3:103]

Prophet Muhammad(SAW) told us in a hadeeth; He had prayed and asked Allah(SWT) for three things, but he was only granted two of them. He tells us:

"I asked Allah that my nation(the Muslims) would not be destroyed by being out numbered.   And Allah granted that prayer.
I then asked Allah that my nation would not be destroyed from poverty. And Allah granted that prayer.
And I asked Allah that my nation would not be destroyed by being divided and fighting amongst themselves.  Allah did NOT grant that prayer."

In one hadeeth of the Prophet(SAW) drew a straight line in the dirt with a stick. He said, "This is the straight path to Allah." Then he drew angles right and left off of the straight line and said, "These are the deviant groups (or sects of Islam) and each one has a devil calling to it."

He, The Prophet(SAW) mentioned that there would always be a main body of Muslims who would be on the straight path until the Last Day.

And the Prophet(SAW) never said that he was a salafi or sunni or shiite, etc.  So we are suppose to as what our Prophet(SAW) did, which was  "Call ourselves Muslims and Muslims only."
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2008 - 6:40PM #2
Faqir
Posts: 238
And the Prophet(SAW) never said that he was a salafi or sunni or shiite, etc. So we are suppose to as what our Prophet(SAW) did, which was "Call ourselves Muslims and Muslims only."

That is mere semantics. We are no more of less divided if we use labels to describe certain groups or not. And labels serve an important function in that they allow us to understand people and groups and the world around us. We are not divided because of our names; We are divided because of our inability to deal in a mature manner with the differences of understanding we have with each other.
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2008 - 7:40PM #3
QureshiAbbasAli
Posts: 515
[QUOTE=Faqir;262228]And the Prophet(SAW) never said that he was a salafi or sunni or shiite, etc. So we are suppose to as what our Prophet(SAW) did, which was "Call ourselves Muslims and Muslims only."

That is mere semantics. We are no more of less divided if we use labels to describe certain groups or not. And labels serve an important function in that they allow us to understand people and groups and the world around us. We are not divided because of our names; We are divided because of our inability to deal in a mature manner with the differences of understanding we have with each other.[/QUOTE]

In the Name of the High
assalam o 'alaykum

the Quran has not prevented the formation of groups: it speaks of the consquences that come with the exclusivism that emanate from it. the Unifying principles are very basic, and have been the subject of much extensive "argumentation" on the 'Welcome Islam Board'.

the Muhammad, being esposed by one sect was a divisive, hell mongering, exclusive "prophet". we are seeing the fruits of such hell mongering quite self-evident with religion and politics mixed in Iraq, and prior to this with shi'i and ahmadie minorities in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

we see this how countries with a muslim Majority also treats the minorities, from Iran, to Sudan, to Nigeria, and to say the least, the land of Muhammads own birth place, Mecca and Medina and the land of the arabs.

the hell mongering Muhammad, certainly did not know of the Quran or his mission if the sayings he said are to be taken to be true. those who ignorant of the differences among religions (Christianity, Judaism) will never appreciate the Unity of the core beliefs within the sects of Islam.

but then we have another Muhammad, a Prophetic Muhammad, whose experience was enshrined with the Quran: with the revelation of 3:103, 30:30, 4:115 and him being the Prophet of Mercy for the 'Entire World'. so much for Mercy within his own following, Subhan Allah, if we take the hell mongering Muhammad.

so Sidi, it is just  not about "dealing with other in a mature manner". it is about accepting that not one sect holds exclusive claim over the Quran, the Sunna. there are certain MSA's within the US/Canada where certain minorities are bared from the mantle of leader-ship, with the stipulation that only, and only

ONLY AN ADHERENT OF THE FOUR SUNNI SCHOOL (S) CAN BE A LEADER OF THE MSA AND/OR A PRAYER LEADER

berkeley, rutgers, ann arbor, toronto to name a few

obviously, for blessed reasons, since the life line of these groups is based on public tax dollars, this tantamounts to a blatant mis-use of money: they have gotten into trouble and rightly so. once they do get into trouble, they bring out the sorry excuse that the minorities are being difficult and are not for Unity. at least not at the altar of their beliefs.

some-times the words of the Quran, to you - yours and to me - mine seem more apt in this context

regards, ali.q
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 04, 2008 - 8:27PM #4
Faqir
Posts: 238
Salams Ali,

the Unifying principles are very basic, and have been the subject of much extensive "argumentation" on the 'Welcome Islam Board'.

This is unrelated, but I wanted to gripe about the fact that the Welcome Islam board is not connected to the other Islam boards. It makes it too difficult to get over there so people like me just don't bother.

so Sidi, it is just not about "dealing with other in a mature manner". it is about accepting that not one sect holds exclusive claim over the Quran, the Sunna.

We have had this disagreement before. I do not necessarily see it as a problem to believe that you are right and others are wrong. The problem is where we go from there. If I say that you are wrong, but you have great value and dignity as a human being and treat you as such then I see little problem. Mature individuals work everyday with people they not only profoundly disagree with, but also those that they actively dislike in productive manners. If we can do it in the secular sphere we can do it in our masjids and homes.

there are certain MSA's within the US/Canada where certain minorities are bared from the mantle of leader-ship, with the stipulation that only, and only

Obviously that is wrongheaded and ridiculous. It actually surprises me as when I was in university the local msa and what I could tell from the national organization was heavily salafi influenced. At our msa we had shi'a, progressives, salafis and traditionalists making up our msa. I never liked the MSA organization personally.

obviously, for blessed reasons, since the life line of these groups is based on public tax dollars, this tantamounts to a blatant mis-use of money:

What? When I was in university the msa paid its own way. No public money. Based on some of what I have seen from msa's I do not really believe that they should receive public money.
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 04, 2008 - 8:28PM #5
Faqir
Posts: 238
I want to be clear that my statement that I have never liked the msa has no relation to the statement that preceded it about our local executives make-up. On review I noticed that it might seem the two statements were linked.
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 04, 2008 - 11:04PM #6
QureshiAbbasAli
Posts: 515
Mature individuals work everyday with people they not only profoundly disagree with, but also those that they actively dislike in productive manners. If we can do it in the secular sphere we can do it in our masjids and homes.

assalam o 'alaykum Sidi

actually, i don't pray jam'a'ah with the muslims at all, especially the sunnis. when they ask, i tell them on their face, why i don't: i don't want to be bothered.

it is more annoying to be questioned on various aspects of why the hands are down, why raised the hand in prayer, why strike the thigh when done with the sala, and why not offer the left and right salams.

the fact that i visit the mosque is good enough: they are brothers and sisters in faith, but there is a fine line

i once took my children to the sunni mosque, and wanted my son enrolled in the Quran Recitation Class: my sons visitation in a few weeks, and he informed me that the students were reading porno-graphic material and bringing them to their lessons (this mosque is called MCMC in Piscataway NJ - now the imam is gone, good riddance)

we mentioned this to the imam: he laughed about it, and said that those who are closer to God are tempted more, and hence it is offset by the deeds that they do by recitation

the MSA's are even worse, especially here in NJ. there is a infestation of both madhabi and la-madhabi mind-set. to every one their own

would you recommend other-wise or just simply stop visiting the mosque? sounds better

regards, ali.q
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 06, 2008 - 9:00PM #7
Faqir
Posts: 238
Salam Alaikum Ali,

I have lived for the past 7 months or so in forced isolation from being involved in or visiting mosques and I can say that while at first it was somewhat liberating, it has been a pretty negative experience. I have another few months more of this then I can move on and I can't wait. It is simply a different set of challenges going it alone.

the MSA's are even worse, especially here in NJ. there is a infestation of both madhabi and la-madhabi mind-set. to every one their own

MSA's tend to attract and be operated by very extreme people. I do not mean that they are terrorists or terrorist sympathizers, they are simply extreme and unwavering in their views. I am not sure if it is something to do with MSA's or if it has to do with the age group. Youth has always been a time of extremism and it is hoped that people mellow with time.

it is more annoying to be questioned on various aspects of why the hands are down, why raised the hand in prayer, why strike the thigh when done with the sala, and why not offer the left and right salams.

Certainly annoying. In response to these types of annoying questions I have adopted the standard answer of it being none of their buisness, stated as gently or bluntly as the situation merits. You could be me, then you could deal with every muslim with an inferiority complex wanting you to tell them how great Islam (and they) are and how bad Christianity (and all non-muslims) are. Luckily, I am not a psychiatrist so I feel no need to solve their issues for them.
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 06, 2008 - 10:03PM #8
QureshiAbbasAli
Posts: 515
MSA's tend to attract and be operated by very extreme people. I do not mean that they are terrorists or terrorist sympathizers, they are simply extreme and unwavering in their views. I am not sure if it is something to do with MSA's or if it has to do with the age group. Youth has always been a time of extremism and it is hoped that people mellow with time.

wa 'alaykum as salams Sidi

i think that it is a combination of both

there is definately a turf war happening among the MSA's, between the madhabi and the la-madhabi. for the most part the minorites have stayed out of it, for reasons quite obvious

God help us all, ali.q
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 07, 2008 - 2:17AM #9
Al-Hadid
Posts: 12
The Qur’an quote 22:78 at the begging of this thread would be better translated as “It is He who has named you- in bygone times as well as in this (Qur’an)- “Those who have surrendered themselves to God (Islam)”.

It is important to remember the timeless import of “surrender to God” as the true religion; of which “Islam” itself becomes the latest in a great historical lineage.

When we see “the best” of ourselves as something shared with “the best” of our brothers and sisters on different paths; it is easier to find common ground and to forgive the mistakes and follies of human beings.

Turn your face toward the primordial religion (Dini Hanifaa),
according to the innate nature (fitra) with which He has made humankind;
do not allow what God has made to be corrupted.
That is authentic religion,
but most people do not understand.
Turn in repentance to Him and remain conscious of Him:
be constant in prayer
and do not be among those who equivocate about God,
those who split apart their religion
and create sects—each group separately rejoicing in what it has!
[30:30-32]

As for those who have divided the unity of their faith into sects –
You have no part in their affairs..
Their case rests with God:
And in time He will make them understand what they were doing.
[6:159]

Numerous passages could be quoted pointing at the flawed logic of some Jews saying only Jews will be saved and some Christians saying only Christians will be saved (God says there are worthy people in all religions). These passages, taken together with the quotes above are a good warning for Muslims to not go down the same path of sectarian exclusivity.

On the other hand, the Qur’an tells all of the religious communities to “compete in good works”. The standard of who is more righteous must be demonstrated by our actions, and cannot be resolved by our loud rhetoric or use of force and coercion.

More attention could be paid to the good works that are calling out to us from beyond the concerns of corporate media; such as… 1.5 million Afghan widows, average age 35, average of 4 children each, average household income $16. [United Nations Relief 1/2008]
http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/SKAI-7BCMC8?OpenDocument

Working together as "the Muslim community" on fixing problems of such immensity and urgency brings people together and makes the lables of schools and groups seem much less important; and therefore less likely to solidify into sects.

Salaam,
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 07, 2008 - 2:21AM #10
QureshiAbbasAli
Posts: 515
Numerous passages could be quoted pointing at the flawed logic of some Jews saying only Jews will be saved and some Christians saying only Christians will be saved (God says there are worthy people in all religions). These passages, taken together with the quotes above are a good warning for Muslims to not go down the same path of sectarian exclusivity.

they do how-ever and even sanction it through prophetic traditions

unfortunately, there is no inclusivist reading of prophetic traditions, and if there is any reading at all, it is the projection of the exclusivist meaning to the Quran

personally, i could care less of such religion, fraternity or the prophet

so much for the Quran, ali.q
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