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7 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2008 - 1:10AM #41
splendid
Posts: 310

bytebear wrote:

Men and women have different roles, but both are equal in importance, and they do overlap.  The most equalizing doctrine of the church is that neither can be exhaulted without the other.



But is seems more like one is exalted and the other is well not.  Heavenly Mother has spirit kids and then poof they are gone can't even talk to her.  This would be like a family here on earth where mom and dad and kids live and the suddenly at age 12 a child is sent away.  Dad can exchange letters and phone calls but mom can never communicate with her child in any form.  What kind of exaltation is it that denies a mother a relationship with her kids? 

Gaia makes a lot of the points I would and she is the only person I've ever read on these boards that put LDS in a favorable light.  And I might add the only one I feel has in anyway shown that the LDS may have some truth in it.  I have found this to be true on other boards as well one person well versed in the particular religion explains it, and it's ok, then the "hardliners" or "orthodox" or "traditionalist" come in and spoil it.

I have probably overstepped boundaries and gone over to debate here so I don't expect an answer I will leave with my feeling toward the church as a result of this.  There is such disparity between the talk of exaltation of women and the treatment of such a being that I just can not believe it is anyway truth.  I am a mother and to deny me any contact with my children is to torture me and that is how I see the LDS theology regarding women and exaltation.

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7 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2008 - 12:48PM #42
Gaia-j
Posts: 636
[QUOTE=splendid;207780]
I haven't heard anything remotely like a "theology of Divine Mother"  from Catholicism, I can not imagine them (or Lutherans and Methodists) saying we are the product of a Divine Father and Divine Mother.  Could you explain??
[/quote]

GAIA:

Sure --As i've written in this thread previously, over 15 years ago I attended an international "Women in Religion" Conference, at which delegates from ALL different religions and spiritual paths (and i do mean "ALL" - from Catholic and Protestant to Jehovah's Witness, Buddhist,  various Native American, Wiccan, Jewish, etc, etc)   All  met to discuss what they felt were the most pressing. crucial  and significant issues facing or related to Women AND Religion  or  Women IN Religion --

-= And one of the most important, immediate, univeral and "hottest" topics, was that of the Divine Feminine, and how to restore Her, and incorporate Her, into the various Religions and their practices.


ALL different relgions have re-discovered the Sacred Feminine -- whether  by the ancient names / identities like the Hebrew "Shekhina" or "Hokhma" (Spirit) , the Early Christian "Sophia-Wisdom",  or by more modern designations, like "God the MOther" --

Mormons don't know much about this development because they think it's just an insignificant, localized,  odd little "hobby" on the part of a few (MOrmon) extremists --

But  the reality is that the re-discovery of and interest in the Divine Feminine  is one of the most significant developments in modern religion.  Go into any major bookstore and check the literally hundreds of books on the topic ; or check out the recent major News magazines like Time, USNews, etc who have all run stories on it  -- You'll see it's no minor idiosyncracy - it is a world-wide MOVEMENT that crosses all religious, cultural, national  or dogmatic boundaries.


Blessings --
~Gaia
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7 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2008 - 1:13PM #43
Gaia-j
Posts: 636
[QUOTE=bytebear;207797]Men and women have different roles, but both are equal in importance,




GAIA:

What this generally boils down to is a favorite (if illogical) saying among many LDS: 
"Men Have Priesthood, Women have motherhood."

The problems with that notion are many:

1.  Men "have" BOTH Priesthood and Fatherhood;

2.  Being a Father certainly doesn't preclude men from also being Priests -- in fact, the two roles compliment each other.

3.  The corollary of  Mother hood is NOT Priesthood, it's Fatherhood;
and the corollary of "Priesthood" is PriestESShood.

4.  Women are not anointed in the Temple to become "Mothers"; they're anointed to become PRIESTESSES.


Obviously,  that saying -- although popular -- demonstrates a pitiful lack of understanding of basic Gospel principles, and Temple ordinances.

For a more complete discussion on the ERROR of this idea that "Men have Priesthood, Women have Motherhood" -- please see (On the old board) --
Mormonism's "Odd Couple" :  Priesthood & Mothrhood 
http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message … onID=44102
Posted by  Gaia-j  73  4/27/01 10:51 AM 



BYTEBEAR:

and they do overlap. The most equalizing doctrine of the church is that neither can be exhaulted without the other.





GAIA:

But as you've discussed / portrayed here, the relevance and importance of women ENDS when men have used   their wives to qualify for Godhood. 

Women then become "silent and invisible partners" whose  "role" we "don't understand" but is obviously LIMITED and CIRCUMSCRIBED -- and DEFINITELY does NOT include any contact with her own children. 

What Mother do you know would stand for such a set-up???  Is that any vision of Heaven that you think any woman -- let alone a CElestial one, who loved her children -- would enjoy, or agree to???



BYTEBEAR:
And Animal Farm is an example of unrightious dominion.  It is an example of a correct principle that was abused.[/QUOTE]


GAIA

I'm afraid you and many other Mormons fail to see the point:  Many feel that there is an over-abundance of evidence that LDS leaders are yet MORE "examples" of such abuse.  Their notion of what "Heaven" involves for women,  is NO "Heaven"  that any woman would want! 

I think God has much more sensitivity for -- and actually cares about  -- what REAL women, really want and need.  And i think he's going to have some things to say to (some of)  his LDS  sons about the nature -- and consequences of --  Unrighteous dominion.

~Gaia

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7 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2008 - 12:04AM #44
splendid
Posts: 310

Gaia-j wrote:

GAIA:

Sure --As i've written in this thread previously, over 15 years ago I attended an international "Women in Religion" Conference, at which delegates from ALL different religions and spiritual paths (and i do mean "ALL" - from Catholic and Protestant to Jehovah's Witness, Buddhist,  various Native American, Wiccan, Jewish, etc, etc)   All  met to discuss what they felt were the most pressing. crucial  and significant issues facing or related to Women AND Religion  or  Women IN Religion --

-= And one of the most important, immediate, univeral and "hottest" topics, was that of the Divine Feminine, and how to restore Her, and incorporate Her, into the various Religions and their practices.



I'm not sure what you mean when you use the word delegate.  If you are referring to the "establishment" or "hierarchy" or TPB within some of those religions I'd be startled.  I just can't see the Vatican or the Watchtower Society giving a hoot about restoring the Divine Feminine or incorporating Her into their practices. And I seem to recall the Southern Baptists taking a giant step backwards.  Perhaps by the year 3000.....:(


Gaia-j wrote:

  ALL different relgions have re-discovered the Sacred Feminine -- whether  by the ancient names / identities like the Hebrew "Shekhina" or "Hokhma" (Spirit) , the Early Christian "Sophia-Wisdom",  or by more modern designations, like "God the MOther" --



I would say there are many people in all different religions who have re-discovered the Sacred Feminine.  Whether or not they can affect change in religions remains to be seen.  This is an extremely intense issue, exactly the kind of thing  that led to "30,00 different denominations"  (Sigh) Like I said maybe by 3000.

Gaia-j wrote:

  Mormons don't know much about this development because they think it's just an insignificant, localized,  odd little "hobby" on the part of a few (MOrmon) extremists --



I doubt this is limited to Mormons and "odd little hobby" is probably among the nicer descriptions:mad:

Gaia-j wrote:

But  the reality is that the re-discovery of and interest in the Divine Feminine  is one of the most significant developments in modern religion.  Go into any major bookstore and check the literally hundreds of books on the topic ; or check out the recent major News magazines like Time, USNews, etc who have all run stories on it  -- You'll see it's no minor idiosyncracy - it is a world-wide MOVEMENT that crosses all religious, cultural, national  or dogmatic boundaries.


Blessings --
~Gaia



I just don't see it as a movement that will overcome all that religious, cultural, national and most especially in this case dogmatic inertia. 

I think the the pessimism I'm showing here is due the presidential election, they always leave me feeling fatalistic,  the old "It'lll neeverrr woooork, We're Dooomed" attitude.  I'm generally optimistic and

Splendid :)
Peace

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7 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2008 - 4:39AM #45
bytebear
Posts: 1,451

Gaia-j wrote:

GAIA:

What this generally boils down to is a favorite (if illogical) saying among many LDS:
"Men Have Priesthood, Women have motherhood."



I never said that, but it is a fact of nature that men cannot no matter how much they may desire the experiece, become pregnant. 

It often reminds me of the movie "Life of Brian" where one follower of Brian says he wants to be a woman and have a baby. and is criticized saying you have no womb. But after some bickering, Brian eventually says "Fine, you can have the right to have a baby."


[QUOTE]
The problems with that notion are many:

1. Men "have" BOTH Priesthood and Fatherhood;

2. Being a Father certainly doesn't preclude men from also being Priests -- in fact, the two roles compliment each other.

3. The corollary of Mother hood is NOT Priesthood, it's Fatherhood;
and the corollary of "Priesthood" is PriestESShood.

4. Women are not anointed in the Temple to become "Mothers"; they're anointed to become PRIESTESSES.
[/QUOTE]

But within the gosple there is priesthood, and there are callings within that priesthood.  You are ORDAINED a priest, but CALLED as a bishop, stake president, president of the church, etc.  Women can be ORDAINED priestesses, but their role or calling is still different than men.


[QUOTE]
Obviously, that saying -- although popular -- demonstrates a pitiful lack of understanding of basic Gospel principles, and Temple ordinances.
[/QUOTE]

It is still a fact that men and women have different roles and callings. And those callings are restricted (even amongst men), by the level of priesthood to which they are ordained.


[QUOTE]
For a more complete discussion on the ERROR of this idea that "Men have Priesthood, Women have Motherhood" -- please see (On the old board) --
Mormonism's "Odd Couple" : Priesthood & Mothrhood
http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message … onID=44102
Posted by Gaia-j 73 4/27/01 10:51 AM
[/QUOTE]

Again, I never used those words, and your link gives me an error, so I cannot comment, but I think the issue isn't with priesthood, but with callings under priesthood.

[QUOTE]
But as you've discussed / portrayed here, the relevance and importance of women ENDS when men have used their wives to qualify for Godhood.
[/QUOTE]

I suppose the same can be said in the reverse.  The importance of Men ends when women have used their husbands to qualify for Godhood.

[QUOTE]
Women then become "silent and invisible partners" whose "role" we "don't understand" but is obviously LIMITED and CIRCUMSCRIBED -- and DEFINITELY does NOT include any contact with her own children.

What Mother do you know would stand for such a set-up??? Is that any vision of Heaven that you think any woman -- let alone a Celestial one, who loved her children -- would enjoy, or agree to???
[/QUOTE]

Well, you assume Heavenly Mother is idol in her role as wife of the Father.  I doubt she is not used to help in his leadership.  We also do not know her role in the Spirit world, or the pre-existance.   I do know that for two years, young men and women are asked to leave their families and have no contact with them as they do the work of the Lord.  How many mothers would put up with such a situation?


[QUOTE]
I'm afraid you and many other Mormons fail to see the point: Many feel that there is an over-abundance of evidence that LDS leaders are yet MORE "examples" of such abuse. Their notion of what "Heaven" involves for women, is NO "Heaven" that any woman would want!

I think God has much more sensitivity for -- and actually cares about -- what REAL women, really want and need. And i think he's going to have some things to say to (some of) his LDS sons about the nature -- and consequences of -- Unrighteous dominion.
[/QUOTE]

I think God's ways are not always our ways, and I trust in the prophet.  And he has made it abundantly clear that right here and now we are not to contact our heavenly mother, just as missionaries are not to call on their mothers every time they get homesick.  I am sure a lot of mothers have struggled sending their sons on missions, and I am sure Heavenly Mother had similar feelings, but just as a missionary is supposed to go to their mission president with problems, we are to go to Heavenly Father.

I am also a little tired of "unrightious dominion" thrown around so flippantly.  It is probably a lesson that many of us need to learn to avoid, but to use it as an excuse whenever we disagree with the prophet.  I trust him more than I trust you (no offense).

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7 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2008 - 2:52PM #46
Gaia-j
Posts: 636
[QUOTE=bytebear;210062]I never said that, but it is a fact of nature that men cannot no matter how much they may desire the experiece, become pregnant. 



GAIA:

Sure -- But How is that relevant to Priesthood? 

Are you suggesting that God somehow "makes it up to men"  (that they cannot BEAR, "only"  SIRE Children)  by giving them Priesthood? 

That's just a rather obvious example of the reality of  "womb-envy"  *smile* --


BYTE:

But within the gosple there is priesthood, and there are callings within that priesthood. 




GAIA:

Well, as i quoted, there are actually  THREE GRAND ORDERS of Priesthood --

And the different ORDERS are organized differently, and have different focus, purposes and goals .

Joseph Smith taught:

"What was the power of Melchizedek?   'Twas not   the Priesthood of Aaron which administers in outward ordinances, and the offering of sacrifices."

  Those holding the fulness of the Melchizedek Priesthood are   kings and priests  [and of course, Queens and PriestESSes)  of the Most High God, holding the keys of power and blessings. In fact, that Priesthood is a perfect law of theocracy, and stands as God to give laws to the people,   administering endless lives   to the sons and daughters of Adam."

(TPJS 322)


BYTE:
You are ORDAINED a priest, but CALLED as a bishop, stake president, president of the church, etc.  Women can be ORDAINED priestesses, but their role or calling is still different than men.




GAIA:

I think my point here is still unclear; Let's try again:

Here's a quote that explains the DIFFERENCE between the different "ORDERS" of Priesthood -- and their relationship to each other -- and the place of those offices, callings and quorums within those Orders:

"The Prophet taught that there were "three grand orders of priesthood"—the [b]  Melchizedek, the Aaronic or Levitical, and the Patriarchal.
  fn

The first, with the second as an appendage, functioned as   the basis of   the Church fn and government of God,

- [b]  and the third was the perfected order in which man could receive a   fulness   of the Melchizedek Priesthood and be exalted  as a priest and a king in eternity.


(Hyrum L. Andrus, Doctrines of the Kingdom [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1973], 157.)


SO, The Melchizedek and Aaronic Orders of Priesthood exist in order to BUILD UP AND ORGANIZE the third, or PATRIARCHAL order, which is the one through which we become "Kings and Queens, Priests and Priestesses".


When people equate "being a Priest or Priestess" in the Kingdom of God, with Bishops, Apostles, etc - -they are demonstrating a LACK of understanding of Priesthood. 


Let's continue reading:

[i] "The patriarchal order of the Melchizedek Priesthood was given to the faithful in the temple, or house of the Lord. "Go to and finish the temple, and God will fill it with power," Joseph Smith explained to the Saints, "and you will then receive more knowledge concerning this priesthood." fn

Since the Prophet made it clear that all priesthood was Melchizedek, it followed that this was the Melchizedek Priesthood organized according to an eternal family order, rather than according to offices, quorums, and councils that comprised the Church   as an instrument to build up the divine patriarchal order.

The program given in the temple introduced man to "the highest order of the Melchizedek Priesthood" in which he could acquire "the fullness of those blessings . . . prepared for the Church of the First Born, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim [i.e., the Gods] in the eternal worlds."   fn

(Hyrum L. Andrus, Doctrines of the Kingdom [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1973], 159 - 160.)


  Do you see?  The whole system that includes "Bishops and Apostles" is (in a sense) LOWER than, and exists in order to build up -- the Patriarchal Order --  the through which one receives Exaltation. 

In the Patriarchal Order, BOTH men and women are anointed  to -- and receive their exaltation in  -- pretty much  the SAME "offices" or "callings", specifically:

- Father and Mother,
- King and Queen,
- Priest and Priestess.


One is NOT exalted as a Bishop, Stake Pres, Apostle or even a Prophet;  One is exalted as a   King and Priest, or Queen and Priestess.

Those offices (Bishop, Apostle, etc)  belong to the (Melchizedek) Order of Priesthood which exists only to administer the Church and to build up the Patriarchal Order -- wherein dwell "Kings and Priests, Queens and Priestesses" -- who  are  [i]   kings and priests    of the Most High God, holding the keys of power and blessings.....  administering endless lives [/u]  to the sons and daughters of Adam."


And in THAT Order, men and women ARE EQUAL.


BYTE:
I suppose the same can be said in the reverse.  The importance of Men ends when women have used their husbands to qualify for Godhood.




GAIA:

Nono, it's not the same thing at ALL.

Let's go back and read carefully:


Originally Posted by tameless_heart :
"How can somethign be equal but not equivilent? That reminds me of Animal Farm in which the pigs decide that all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."


To which you, BYTE, replied:
" The most equalizing doctrine of the church is that neither can be exhaulted without the other."


You seemed to be making the point that just because a man "needs" a woman to be exalted, that somehow "proves" that she is important,  and "equalizes" them.

My answer is that he may "need" her for exaltation, but that in NO way "equalizes" them:

After they're exalted -- at least according to YOUR view --  She becomes a "silent and invisible" partner; while NOBODY tells Him with whom He may or may not commune;  NOBODY tells his sons and daughters not to communicate with or even THINK about HIM --   That is not at ALL "equality", Byte.



BYTE:

Well, you assume Heavenly Mother is idol in her role as wife of the Father. 




GAIA:

I presume you meant "idle" ?   *smile*

No, i don't at all presume that -- But (many)  Mormons certainly seem to:   Other than bearing the Spirit-babies, most Mormons see no other acceptable role for Her.

You (with many LDS) seem to have the idea that women's entire "raison d'etre" (reason for being) is to be somebody's wife and mother -- whether that's in mortality or eternity.  And while they are both very nice roles, they are NOT the ONLY roles that most women want --
Just as most men may enjoy being a husband and father, but that is not ALL they want to be.


I don't know whether i've ever told you this story (i'll try to keep it brief  *g* ) --

I attended a Relief Socieity lesson several years ago, whose subject was "The Exalted Role of Woman" --

The teacher began by asking, "What is the exalted role of woman in the Church?"

Several answered with a quick,  reflexive, automatic  response,  "Wife and Mother".

After a bit, I took a deep breath, raised my hand , and tried to make several points:

1.  First of all, women don't have just ONE, single "role" -- They have MANY roles, just like men.

2.  Women are daughters of Heavenly Father and MOther, LONG BEFORE (and AFTER) they are or can be "wives and mothers".

3.  There are many women who will NEVER get to be wives and mothers -- for various reasons.  So there must be other roles that are acceptable for them.

4.  A woman spends only -- at the most -- one-THIRD of her life now, actively functioning as somebody's mother.  If we LIMIT the meaningful roles she is allowed,  to just motherhood, she will likely spend two-thirds of her life with virtually NO (or a very much REDUCED) role!  What sort of life would that be?

5.  Women have a right to decide for themslves -- in consultation  with the Holy Spirit -- what roles they take on, in life; and need be no more limited than are men, in decided what roles they should have.


Well, everyone sat uncomfortably quiet for a moment, and then the teacher said quickly, "Yes, but their role is Wife and Mother."  And then the "lesson" (or should i say indoctrination) moved on.


That's a classic example of the kinds of messages that women and girls are given in this church, all the time: that only one or two "roles" are acceptable,  and that their roles are absolutely and utterly LIMITED by their biology -- and that any other thoughts on the subject are NOT welcome, thankyouverymuch.


And of course, the "roles" that we assign to women in mortality, are just patterns for the roles we "assign" them in Eternity - so Heavenly Mother becomes in effect, a baby-making machine whose sole worth is that she "qualifies" her husband for Godhood, and then produced the babies through when He exercises that Godhood.
  Don't you see -- no wonder so many people MISUNDERSTAND LDS ideas, doctrines and values; no wonder they think Mormonism is sexist and misogynistic . . . .   This is NOT in harmony with the teachings or the vision of Joseph Smith, or the Revelations of God; it's the result of very human, cultural notions about females, that we all grew up with; --  It's the    "philosophies of men, mingled with scripture"!   


Continued --

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7 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2008 - 2:54PM #47
Gaia-j
Posts: 636

  BYTE:

I think God's ways are not always our ways, and I trust in the prophet.  And he has made it abundantly clear that right here and now we are not to contact our heavenly mother, just as missionaries are not to call on their mothers every time they get homesick.  I am sure a lot of mothers have struggled sending their sons on missions, and I am sure Heavenly Mother had similar feelings, but just as a missionary is supposed to go to their mission president with problems, we are to go to Heavenly Father.





GAIA:

You are certainly entitled to your own opinions, decisions etc, as to how YOU will deal with this issue; 
You are NOT entitled to decide for OTHERS how THEY will *smile* .


But i'm afraid there is LITTLE IF ANY comparison between how the Church deals with Heavenly Mother, and how missionaries relate to their parents:  For just a FEW examples:

1.  Missionaries DID have mothers -- and all the memories associated with those MOthers ---  for  18-20 YEARS before serving their missions; 

2.  It's BOTH parents, not just the mother, that Missionaries are not permitted to contact;

3.  MIssionaries are NOT told that their mothers don't WANT OR NEED or SHOULDN"T HAVE communication, but that temporarily their (MIssionary)  job precludes it;

4.  A missionary VOLUNTEERS for the job (well, social pressure notwithstanding!)  KNOWING the rules he'll have to abide by ;

5.  Missionaries DO get communication on special days;

6.  MIssionaries DO get assurances that when their mission is over, they can go home and BOTH parents will welcome them;

7.  MIssionaries ARE allowed to THINK ABOUT, share stories about, etc their mothers and home in general;

8.  NOBODY tells a missionary that Heavenly Mother is too fragile or sensitive  to BEAR communication;

9.  NOBODY tells a missionary that they should direct ALL Their thoughts, desires,  etc to their FATHERS and NOT their mothers;


10.  The mothers of misisonaries are REAL, actual beings and are respected as such;
They're not silent, invisible, faceless , characterless, personality-less phantom beings somewhere behind the fathers;

11  .  Two years is a considerable difference from an entire LIFETIME;

12. Don't missionaries get to write letters to mothers & fathers?  Don't they RECEIVE letters from both?

13.  Nobody implies that there is something wrong / sinful about a missionary who misses, talks about , honors or wants to communicate with his mother.



BYTE:
I am also a little tired of "unrightious dominion" thrown around so flippantly.  It is probably a lesson that many of us need to learn to avoid, but to use it as an excuse whenever we disagree with the prophet.  I trust him more than I trust you (no offense).
[/QUOTE]



GAIA:

NO offense taken; you're certainly taught to trust him; in fact you're told that if you DON'T, you will be punished by God.

I've never even suggested any such thing about myself! *g* 

ANY time somebody raises the spectre of punishment by God if you don't do what THEY claim you should, i think that is very suspicious and a potential for unrighteous dominion;

I think any time somebody takes it upon themslves to insert themselves between you and Deity, there is a serious potential for unrighteous dominion;

I think it is (unfortunately) VERY prevalent, especailly among men who think that "Priesthood" is some sort of whip, rather than a call to SERVE the FAther's Children.....


I think many forget that having Priesthood is NOT about HAVING offices, it's about GIVING  SERVICE.

(That's not any reflection or comment on you personally, i hope you understand; just a general observation.  In fact, in my experience, you seem to be one of those who actually does try -- as well as you can --  to follow your undersanding of the teachings of Jesus; and for that, i think you should be commended!)

Blessings --

~Gaia

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7 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2008 - 9:40PM #48
BackonTrack
Posts: 41
Oh goody, a Sunstone Symposium right here on the LDS Board.  {not}
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7 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2008 - 9:57PM #49
bytebear
Posts: 1,451
I find if funny how I can say "trust in the prophet" and to Gaia, it becomes "punishment by God if you don't do what THEY claim you should"  Honestly, you are a expert at hyperbole.
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7 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2008 - 12:43AM #50
tameless_heart
Posts: 2,084
This question might come out a little convoluted, but I'll give it a shot. If it needs clarification, let me know. My question is (since I"m not really all that familiar with how things work technically speaking with you guys) what does it take to have something included in the doctrine? Is there someway a revelation of sorts could be added? If so, who doe sit have to come from? If a leader were tohave a revelation of say, Holy Mother, would he be ostracized or is there some way of validating his revelation? Apologies for being confusing.
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