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Switch to Forum Live View Asatruar views on Social Issues
6 years ago  ::  Jan 16, 2009 - 1:52PM #51
omor01
Posts: 2
Hello all, I now have found with Asatru that my way of thinking has changed from were I thought about life before.
I believe we should no longer fear others who are different from us, (Race, Color, Creed) to each there own!
But I am from a fair skinned gender and have now found pride in my ancestor's pre-christian beliefs.
Now because of Christian,muslim,jewish beliefs we live in fear, we need to think outside the box and live the most noble life possible!  Asatru what is it?
Long before Christianity took over Europe, there was an organized indigenous religion already there. Ásatrú is indeed the original, or “native,” religion of the peoples who occupied most of Europe. Geographically speaking, on the European continent Ásatrú was practiced from Scandinavia and Britain in the north, down through France and Germany in the south, and to as far east as Russia... When the tribes migrated so did the religion. As an organized religion, Ásatrú seems to be about 8,000 years old.
Ásatrú was then and is now a tribal, or folk religion. As such, it shares much with other indigenous tribal traditions, including those of the Native American Indians. Ásatrú actually has a lot in common with the American Indian religion. Both are tribal, both honor the ancestors, and both have much to teach us about our connection with the natural world around us. Both teach high personal principles... Ásatrú and the way of the Indians are both the indigenous religions of a specific people.
People who resisted the new Christian religion were tortured and executed. The center of this Christian “new way” was the religion of Jesus Christ, some Jewish rebel who was condemned to death by his own people for impersonating himself as being the son of Yahweh, god of the Judaic monotheistic religion. But actually there is virtually no accurate historical proof that a Jew by the name of Jesus actually lived some 2000 years ago, doing his thing with miracles and rising from the dead. Practically everything people “know” about Jesus comes from the Gospels — all of which were written decades after his alleged death and resurrection. Curiously, no literature is existent from that period that questions the gospels and its bizarre tales.
The term worship implies that one being is higher then another and that is not the relationship that the Ásatrúers have with their Gods. Many of the Nordic Gods have a flaw, if you will, (Tyr is missing one hand, Odin is missing one eye and so on.) they are neither omniscient nor perfect. The Gods are said to come to Midgard (earth) and ask for the help of humans on many occasions. Thus, Heathens look up to, work along side of and commune with their Gods.
While individual Christians may honestly believe in freedom, yet their scriptures say that they all are slaves to their Almighty God. Judeo-Christian scriptures say all people are subject to the Will of their God — upon penalty of everlasting torture for refusal.
Christians may accept that joy is good, but their teachings burden them with guilt because of some imaginary “original sin” or other failings. They perhaps would like to understand the real world on a pragmatic basis, from verifiable evidence, yet they are told to suspend any critical thought and believe dogmas — black is white, round is flat, and natural instincts are evil —
Ásatrúers do not accept the idea of “original sin,” the notion that we are tainted from birth and intrinsically bad, as does Judeo-Christianity. Thus, people do not need “saving” and there is no need to ask forgiveness to be redeemed or else face an eternity burning in hell.
The whole concept of an eternal afterlife of suffering is alien to indigenous European religious thought. Why should one fear the afterlife? Everyone makes mistakes, but it’s how we deal with them that is important. We don’t ask our deities to forgive us, instead, we should try to learn from our mistakes and live our lives as honorably as possible.
The whole Christian concept of mankind is dominated by the concept of sin. Not the good and positive aspects of man are put in the foreground but his guilt (whatever this may be). In my opinion, this concept of sin is very much suited for the manipulation of people — as long as they are being told that they must repent of something they have not really done. The Christian concept of sin is truly, in all senses, an instrument of exploitation.
Guilt is indeed an immensely powerful weapon. If once you can make a person feel guilty, make feel that there is something wrong with her or him, you have gained a psychological ascendancy over that person. Guilt is a weapon often used on psychologically vulnerable people.
What better weapon could those who want to control us have than to keep us in a world of fantasy? It is highly important for those who want to maintain the society as it is to prevent people from seeing and dealing with the realities of their conditions, for if they did so they would at once take steps to alter them.
Good and evil are not constants. What is good in one case will not be good in another, and evil in one circumstance will not be evil under a different set of conditions. In any one instance, the right course of action will have been shaped by the influence of the past and the present. The result may or may not be “good” or “evil,” but it will still be the right action. In no case should good and evil be dictated to us by the edicts of some alien, authoritarian deity, such as in Judeo-Christianity. We should use our freedom, responsibility, and awareness of duty to serve the highest and best ends.
In Ásatrú there is simply no central authority that lays down dogma or tenets. There is no injunction to proselytize, or any precedent for intolerance of other beliefs. Ásatrúers do not proselytize. They will not come, like some Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses, knocking at your door trying to “sell” Ásatrú.
The followers of Ásatrú don’t believe that there is such thing as “One True Religion for Everybody.” They are convinced that ethnic ancestral religions that were built by and for various ethnic peoples, are the most suitable ones — these are manifestations of the inner self of every person, and an expression of their collective subconscious. The various branches of humanity have different ways of looking at the world, each of which is valid for them, and thus naturally should have different religions, which of course they do, or at least did...
Judeo-Christianity teaches either a hatred of other religions or a duty to convert others, often by force. They have often practiced these beliefs with cruel brutality. There was actually no history of religious warfare in Europe before the coming of Christianity...
Ásatrú is also not a dogmatic religion. Obviously, like any religion, Ásatrú does have certain rules of ethics but they are simply inherent to our people.
As a movement striving for European people to be freed of Judeo-Christian dogmas and dictatorship, Ásatrúers are often labeled today as “racists” or “hate-mongers” by the establishment. They are often being labeled even as “White Supremacists.”
But the truth is that Ásatrúers are in no way interested in a European “supremacy,” or “world government,” imposing European culture on Africans or Asians. They have no desire to make all of mankind build temples in the honor of Wotan, systematically destroying all traces of ethno-cultural diversity of the world. This is exactly what Judeo-Christians did to other cultures and religions.
Ásatrúers do not want to interfere with other cultures whatsoever. Ásatrúers do not want to destroy other races or religions just because they are different from us, because they are better or worse than us in one way or another... Ásatrúers definitely are not like Judeo-Christian conquistadors who felt the need to colonize America and turn Indians into Judeo-Christian “Latinos.” They are not like Judeo-Christianity’s missionaries who felt the need to colonize Africa and Asia.
We do not preach the supremacy of one people or race or religion above another. We do, however, believe that every person should try to keep his culture as pure as possible. This is not preaching racial hatred, as our praise of pure cultures means also pure African cultures, pure Asian cultures, pure Indian cultures, and, of course, pure European cultures.
Ásatrúers accept and respect the right of others — of whatever creed or color — to absolute self-determination. In return, they claim only the right to their own blood and soil — to inhabit and defend our ancestral lands in the way Europeans see fit. Ásatrúers believe that each individual culture is unique, as it is the result of the creative spirit of each individual people. Culture is the mirror that reflects the profound nature as well as the identity of a people. Our culture is our identity. Consequently, the mixing of cultures or peoples only brings the destruction of the identity of each race or ethnic group involved, of the cultural wisdom and richness accumulated over hundreds of years. Mixing cultures leads to anti-culture (America is an example) and decline, as it destroys our identity. Never, ever throughout history has one multicultural society survived. The Sumerian society, one of the earliest urban societies on the face of the planet disappeared because so many different cultures started to pop up in the city.
Another very important aspect of Ásatrú is the high respect, understanding and, most importantly, the agreement with Mother Nature. Ásatrú is based on will and joy for life, on the instinct of self-preservation, the need to search and find, the will to understand.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 05, 2008 - 5:20AM #52
Anáklasis
Posts: 14

L'Esprit wrote:

I've encountered information on some websites that I would rate as being very liberal/progressive as well as information on other sites that I would rate as being conservative/traditional.  Is this diversity typical of Asatru?


Chiming in late and skipping the whole sexuality thing because I'm lazy.

I hope the diversity is typical. Diversity is generally healthy. I've seen historians describe the norse social structure as "patriarchal communalist", and a lot of traditional people, even young ones, seem to still be thinking in those patterns even though they've never heard the term or seen a tun-tree. Norway used to have a large political movement based on it, but though the parties are still there, the ideology seems to be dissolving into social liberalism, neoliberalism and elitist radicalism/conservatism.

It's good to learn from history, not just to repeat it. It's pretty obvious that there are some nasty drawbacks to the old brand of communalism. An extremely low treshold for deviance is one of them. This makes communities vulnerable to the kind of conservatism which has you failing at subsistence farming while everyone around you are forming cooperatives and buying tractors. Raising the threshold and allowing more space for diversity of opinion and lifestyle can only be good.

However, at some point you have to draw a line. That's where you run into the problem of "if you tolerate other views, then you'd also have to tolerate mine as well". There are always some things a community just can't be brought to tolerate. The thing is, the list is different for each community. For some, it's gay people, for others, it's people with piercings, for others again, it's socialists, conservatives, fascists or some other political brand. Being part of one community or other, we're conditioned to tolerate some things and reject others. I'm not sure it's my business to lecture people, perhaps except where I'm in a position to see that they're hurting each other, and where I'm really, really sure I know a better way of going about it.

So, yes, I'm pretty conflicted on the whole thing. On one hand, I don't believe I get to be very choosy with whom I associate with. That's the communalism speaking, I guess. On the other, I can't help but consider some people's opinions and choices a standing threat to everything I hold dear. For example, I can't trust a fascist. They're people who quite openly want to murder anyone who stands in their way, enslaving everyone else in the process. They're so clearly the Enemy of any human being who isn't a fscist, they don't even get the benefit of doubt. I can't respect a white (or any other colour of) supremacist, because of their idiotic and unreasonable attitudes to people I consider part of my community, and people whom I respect a great deal. And so on. It's possible to draw a line, but it gets to look like a european border, lots of little squiggles and zig-zags and grey areas as you make the cut in each individual case.

The strange thing is that traditional attitudes work quite well as a guideline. I guess it can be worked ouy like this:
Would you welcome me to your house? Then we are friends.
Would you welcome my friend to your house? Then we're still friends.
Would you not welcome my friend to your house? Then we are not friends.
Would you welcome my enemy to your house? Then we're enemies as well.

Maybe the closest expression of this test in English would be that naty little phrase - "but would you want your daughter to marry one?" :)

Social issues can't be treated as something separate from the people which the issues are about. There is a network of responsibility and respect between people - wyrd - and that is the basis of all social issues. Disregard it when you make judgements, and you will be carving that network to bits, destroying the thing you were trying to understand and nurture in the first place.

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5 years ago  ::  Feb 07, 2009 - 8:22PM #53
giertruidis
Posts: 206
"Some of our Kindred are either just back from Afghanistan, or working up to go back again. For that matter some of the guys I trained still keep in touch, and are so much more positive about what we are doing in Afghanistan than any of that Blue Beret BS that it pretty much decides the issue for me."

I am glad to hear that.  My newphew will be going there next year.  He just signed up and is training in heavy artilery.   Taking after his mum & dad.  My sister was 25 years in the armed forces as an MP, but she prefered unarmed combat to guns.
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5 years ago  ::  Feb 07, 2009 - 8:27PM #54
giertruidis
Posts: 206
"Mixing cultures leads to anti-culture (America is an example) and decline, as it destroys our identity. Never, ever throughout history has one multicultural society survived. "

Every culture is mixed, none has survived. Life is change.  Though the biggest multicultural culture in the west  has been the Roman one, and it lasted for quite some time and it didn't fall because it was multicultural.  Europeans are a multicultural people, a simple DNA study will tell you that.  Mono culture leads to in breeding and genetic flaws.
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5 years ago  ::  Jul 07, 2009 - 6:19PM #55
Eveningrose1397
Posts: 6

"I think bisexual girls are hot (I have some good freinds that are pure lesbians) but look down on bi and gay men because I see them as lesser or somehow deviant from nature. Don't get me wrong, I don't bash gay men, I just think they need help and wouldn't trust them with male children, and I certianly don't hang out with them. I guess that gay people should be allowed to marry but would never vote for it. And I have to question the ability of gay couples to parent well. I mean it would never be "normal" and they would raise the boy to be a woman and the girl to be a man....ok maby not but its still not normal and everyone knows it. But as consenting adults it is their right to do with their own bodies what ever they want, but thats my veiw on homosexuality."


It's a disgusting thought that you think a homosexual male shouldn't be trusted to raise a male child! What about the straight men raising daughters? That's unfair and a perverted explanation and reasoning. As a bisexual woman and mother, that is very insulting! And (no offense) but who are you to judge what "normal" is? Are you trying to refer to "The Mainstream"? I think a person's sexual orientation has nothing to do with their ability to be amazing parents! Be them Straight, Gay, Bisexual, Lesbian or whatever! And they SHOULD be able to marry! It's unconstitutional to deny them that right!

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5 years ago  ::  Aug 05, 2009 - 12:25PM #56
Karl_s.
Posts: 1

In Europe, we Asatruar tend to be:


- Pro strong self defense rights (yup, most of us are pro-gun even in Europe).


- Pro choice, it is not our decision to make, it is not our business.


- Normally we don't care too much about gay marriage. We're not homophobic, but not gay rights activists either. It's their fight and their business. (In my particular case, it IS my business because I'm a bi man)


- We have strong family values. Our kids are the future of our tribe, we better raise them well and be good parents and role models. We want them to live happy lives, so we'll make sacrifices to raise them OK. While that commitment to family might make us conservative, don't err: We Asatruar have no problem with consensual sex between adults (on my particular strand of Asatru, we consider adults those over 15), unless it's cheating on a spouse in a not open relationship. That is oath-breaking, and is wrong because it hurts the family involved, and the family is the first link in the chain that goes from the man to the tribe.


- Race is irrelevant, culture isn't. For being a Heathen you need to be CULTURALLY germanic, not neccessarily by blood. We're not races, we're TRIBES. The blackest guy in the world could hold a germanic worldview and become a Heathen. From the point he joins the tribe, it's as Germanic for me as the average Icelander.


- Not traditionalists in gender roles. We believe in the sovereignty of the individual over his own life, and as long as he doesn't hurt the tribe, it's HIS BUSINESS.


 


Those are the basic views of most Asatruar I've met.

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 25, 2009 - 8:41PM #57
Ule_alfarrin
Posts: 5

Good Day, Cousin:


On my team of Heathens, when someone wishes to change their religious culture and become troth-pledged as a Heathen or one who maintains "Belief in the Gods", we have them pick a member of our community who is well learned in the Ancestral lore, to act as their "advice-man" for that time we call "Heathen Formation". I am currently acting in this capacity to a friend who is learning our lore and ways, and who will, if he chooses, become pledged in front of the community on the next Summer Solstice.


To help him as his advice man, I am composing a series of "Heathen Formation" essays for him, introducing all of the basic principles of our way. I currently have two of those essays done, and will write more in the weeks to come. I have invited all people who are interested in learning a general Heathen (Asatru, not Theodish) perspective to watch the essay series- and the discussions we have under them- unfold.


You can see them here:


ulesfarmstead.blogspot.com/


You might be interested. You will find that diversity is normal inside of Asatru, which is neatly reflected in the historical ways of Heathenry, across the world. There was no "one way" to believe or be Heathen, historically. Local customs for religion and practice were the way of things in the ancient world. My essays present our local custom, but you will see that our principles reflect a lot of general trends in modern Asatru.


Sig and Sal!


Ule


 

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 25, 2009 - 8:46PM #58
Ule_alfarrin
Posts: 5

And one more thing, cousin: the Heathen Formation essays at my Farmstead are posted in order from latest to first. Start by reading the first essay, entitled "Being True to the Gods".


Sig und Sal


Ule

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4 years ago  ::  Dec 27, 2010 - 3:04AM #59
Rognir_Odinnsson
Posts: 6

Jan 4, 2008 -- 1:53PM, L'Esprit wrote:

Hello everyone, I'm new to the community and am in the process of learning about Asatru.  I know a fair amount about the gods, the typical ritual practices, etc.  However, I've never known any practitioners of Asatru personally so all of my knowledge has come from online.  It seems to me that there is a great diversity amongst those that practice Asatru, particularly with regard to certain social issues.  I would be interested in any comments related to typical views on race, homosexuality, and any relationship between some in the community to right wing political organizations.  I've encountered information on some websites that I would rate as being very liberal/progressive as well as information on other sites that I would rate as being conservative/traditional.  Is this diversity typical of Asatru?






Yes we all tend to have differing opinions. I am and Asatruar and a folkish one at that. I believe that our Gods only call to those of us whose ancestors worshipped Them. I view my religion as ethnospecific and if you don't like it you can go to Hel. I am a hard polytheist meaning I see the Gods and Goddesses as real Beings not just sources of energy. I believe in protecting my faith, family and folk. I believe that alien gods destroy our minds and lead us into extinction. I hate people who would mix our faith with other religions (ie wiccatru, Norse wicca etc) worship one faith not blend many together as gods of different pantheons dont always get along.

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4 years ago  ::  Dec 28, 2010 - 1:12AM #60
Bairre
Posts: 122

Jan 4, 2008 -- 1:53PM, L'Esprit wrote:

Hello everyone, I'm new to the community and am in the process of learning about Asatru. I know a fair amount about the gods, the typical ritual practices, etc. However, I've never known any practitioners of Asatru personally so all of my knowledge has come from online. It seems to me that there is a great diversity amongst those that practice Asatru, particularly with regard to certain social issues. I would be interested in any comments related to typical views on race, homosexuality, and any relationship between some in the community to right wing political organizations. I've encountered information on some websites that I would rate as being very liberal/progressive as well as information on other sites that I would rate as being conservative/traditional. Is this diversity typical of Asatru?




I am an anarchist politically, as I feel no government could ever, in any way provide freedom or social justice.  I hold no political affiliation and feel that government is mostly an extention of Corporate interests.  As far as issues go.  I am pro-gun, pro-choice, pro-gay, anti-racist, anti-sexist, anti-Capitalist/Communist, radical enviromentalist.


Race has been a hard thing for me to deal with when it comes to others.  My wife is black, and that doesn't set well with a lot of people in the south.  And most Heathans here are National Socialists.  That being said, I have found a small group of Asatruars who practice Stav together and who are accepting of my wife.  That has been a blessing from the gods.  My wife knows more about the lore and the traditions than most anyone I know, so I find it odd that people would tell her she doesn't belong in our religion.  She was the one who introduced it to me.

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