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Switch to Forum Live View Muslim men prefer non-Muslim women
6 years ago  ::  Jan 01, 2008 - 4:22AM #21
Atsila
Posts: 207
[QUOTE=Miraj;177348][B]
No way you can convince me that most converts aren't sold on marrying in as part and parcel of being accepted into their community, no matter what other ideals come alog with it.
  Salaam[/QUOTE]

This is certainly interesting.  I believed that muslims generally chose to marry other muslims (convert or not) because they shared a common faith, not so they can be the 'great white convert' or whatever.  I don't know what other converts want, but I know that I would only want to marry a muslim.  I wouldn't want to marry a Jew because I can't abide all of their laws and their views on women.  And I wouldn't want to marry a christian because I just can't tolerate all of this 'praise Jesus' stuff and their views on women.  I grew up christian and if I wanted a christian household, I wouldn't have bothered to convert; I am truly just tired of christianity and don't want it in my house.  Judiasm, just too damn confusing.  I don't care to have a kosher kitchen or a christmas tree in my house.


Quite obviously, just marrying another muslim doesn't cut it and it seems to me (from reading these boards) that's where some converts go wrong.  They jump into marriage before their beliefs have solidified and marry the first muslim that's thrown at them.  You have to have more than just a name of a faith to truly unite two people.  We have clearly seen the difference in beliefs between muslims on this board.  So, I would never say 'just send me a man, as long as he's muslim'.  Oh no, that wouldn't work for me. 

I don't know WHY some converts jump into marriage.  I think some reasons may be to fit in, some are pressured that it is HALF OF YOUR DEEN AND YOU MUST GET MARRIED YESTERDAY (and we have muslim babies to make!), some I think are naive and think that all muslims are wonderful and abide by islamic principles and therefore any ole muslim body will make a good spouse, some to escape a bad homelife with parents and some because they are lonely and the list goes on.  I never really thought about converts marrying to 'fit in', but I think many are pressured to marry, from what I hear.  Thankfully, I was never pressured to marry when I converted and it's a good thing, because it would have gotten ugly if I had to tell people to back off and I'll get married when I'm good and darn well ready.       

Having read these boards, I have discovered that I have missed out on some unique convertish experiences.  How unfair!  (but I'll get over it)

wassalam,
Atsila
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 01, 2008 - 3:50AM #22
Atsila
Posts: 207
[QUOTE=USMuslim;176225]You have got to be kidding me! It's folks like you that make the rest of us look bad to the world. It's the mentality of "Us against Them" that has caused so much trouble in the world. Follow the example of the Prophet, peace be upon him, and you won't be writing trash like that.
When you look at the men who come to study or work in the US, often when they involve with American women it's because there are simply more non-Muslim women around, non-Muslim women aren't bound by Islamic norms such as shyness or modesty. If you are a twenty-something Muslim man from some other country, away from your family and friends, and there are girls everywhere, dressed in ways you could never imagine, behaving in ways you could never imagine...and you have no experience in dealing with them growing up (like Endgame did as an American Muslim), how well will you handle it?
[/QUOTE]

I don't think endgame was promoting the idea, just saying that it is one reason and I also believe this.  It's the same sort of idea as the Black man, white woman thing back in the mid 1900s.  And, Lee Ann, in this case, sex is about power and domination.

And, goodness, maybe I took this the wrong way, but not all non-muslims are ignorant of shyness and modesty.  Can we not generalize ALL non-muslims and/or Americans?  Also, how should someone handle this?  Um, I don't know, maybe how their religion taught them?  But, no, I am not denying that many people who come to this country have problems fitting in or they get caught up in how those around them behave and want to join in to be part of the group.  Having said that, if they had a truly islamic (speaking only for muslims here) upbringing, they know right from wrong and no matter what others are doing, they know they shouldn't and don't have to play along. 

And I know it sounds like I am contradicting myself, although I am not, but what's with some girls dressing sleazy at a younger and younger age?  I was in a dressing room one time and there was this girl who tried on this pair of jeans; she was around 10 years old.  The mom told her to turn around and the girl whined and didn't want to turn around (for the mom to see her butt).  The mother then said 'TURN AROUND' and the girl turned around.  The mother said 'no, they're too tight.  Take them off'.  I just wanted to applaud the mother for having some common sense!  So, thankfully, there are still some parents out there who are interested in raising their kids. 

wassalam,
Atsila
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 01, 2008 - 3:53AM #23
Atsila
Posts: 207
[QUOTE=Miraj;176305]II'm not a convert and don't see the world thru convert eyes in that marriage is not about reaffirming our Muslimness as it is for many converts. 
Salaam[/QUOTE]

I'm a convert and I have no idea what you are talking about.  Please explain.

wassalam
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 01, 2008 - 4:22AM #24
Atsila
Posts: 207
[QUOTE=Miraj;177348][B]
No way you can convince me that most converts aren't sold on marrying in as part and parcel of being accepted into their community, no matter what other ideals come alog with it.
  Salaam[/QUOTE]

This is certainly interesting.  I believed that muslims generally chose to marry other muslims (convert or not) because they shared a common faith, not so they can be the 'great white convert' or whatever.  I don't know what other converts want, but I know that I would only want to marry a muslim.  I wouldn't want to marry a Jew because I can't abide all of their laws and their views on women.  And I wouldn't want to marry a christian because I just can't tolerate all of this 'praise Jesus' stuff and their views on women.  I grew up christian and if I wanted a christian household, I wouldn't have bothered to convert; I am truly just tired of christianity and don't want it in my house.  Judiasm, just too damn confusing.  I don't care to have a kosher kitchen or a christmas tree in my house.


Quite obviously, just marrying another muslim doesn't cut it and it seems to me (from reading these boards) that's where some converts go wrong.  They jump into marriage before their beliefs have solidified and marry the first muslim that's thrown at them.  You have to have more than just a name of a faith to truly unite two people.  We have clearly seen the difference in beliefs between muslims on this board.  So, I would never say 'just send me a man, as long as he's muslim'.  Oh no, that wouldn't work for me. 

I don't know WHY some converts jump into marriage.  I think some reasons may be to fit in, some are pressured that it is HALF OF YOUR DEEN AND YOU MUST GET MARRIED YESTERDAY (and we have muslim babies to make!), some I think are naive and think that all muslims are wonderful and abide by islamic principles and therefore any ole muslim body will make a good spouse, some to escape a bad homelife with parents and some because they are lonely and the list goes on.  I never really thought about converts marrying to 'fit in', but I think many are pressured to marry, from what I hear.  Thankfully, I was never pressured to marry when I converted and it's a good thing, because it would have gotten ugly if I had to tell people to back off and I'll get married when I'm good and darn well ready.       

Having read these boards, I have discovered that I have missed out on some unique convertish experiences.  How unfair!  (but I'll get over it)

wassalam,
Atsila
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 01, 2008 - 10:16AM #25
Miraj
Posts: 5,023

Atsila wrote:

I'm a convert and I have no idea what you are talking about. Please explain.

wassalam



You answered part of it in your post above.

For one thing, a born Muslim is less likely to be "tired of" Christianity, or have the kind of animosity expressed by many converts toward their old religion because of the harm they felt it did to them. I hear that alot from converts, a rejection of the old stuff that makes them want to emerge themselves into the new thing and creat a whole new identity. Creating new identity is a convert issue, although you can find it in those who become newly enamored with their current religion, too.

Converts are learning from scratch; that's another perspective they don't share with born Muslims, who, no matter how much or little engaged with the faith, simply have a higher comfort level with it and don't feel threatened by moving beyond what many converts would consider to be their boundaries as a Muslim. The reason why I'm asking the question is because born Muslims don't seem to any longer feel the same impetus you ascribe to them - to marry other Muslims because they would share a common faith. For one thing, Muslims don't seem to share a common faith anymore. There is far more sectarianism in Islam than in decades past. A lot of Muslims actually feel as comfortable with non-Muslims as they do with Muslims.

These are things you don't pick up if you are relatively new to being Muslims or relating to them. There is a difference between being born and raised Muslim and being a convert, and no one needs to be offended by that being said. It's the same as if you went to China and felt called to become Chinese. It would be obvious to the Chinese that you we'ren't born Chinese, that you had a learning curve, and that some of the things you believe about being Chinese or not being Chinese are a little strange to those who are already Chinese.

I hope that helps.

Salaam

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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6 years ago  ::  Jan 01, 2008 - 11:10AM #26
Faqir
Posts: 238
I skipped many of the posts in the middle, so if I am repetitive please forgive me. I do not believe that this is simply an issue of muslim men deciding that they would rather marry non-muslims than muslims and I also do not believe that this is a particularly muslim problem.

Most groups of people outside the mainstream suffer from this same problem. I heard from an orhtodox christian priest that something like 90% of orthodox christians marry outside their faith. This is not unexpected when you consider the fact that men will spend a many times more time with non-muslim women, and meet many more of them, than they will ever spend with muslim women. Extremes of gender segregation make the situation even worse in our community than in some others. The lack of an intelligent strategy to facilitate muslim men and women interacting and meeting with a view towards marriage is also a major barrier. If you look at places where muslims were a minority for long periods of time you will see that there has always been intermarriage. The pre-war(s) Balkans is a very good example. This is not something new or strange. In a lot of ways I think that it is often a case of situational pressures leading to muslim men marrying non-muslims rather than an absolute decision to do so by these men. That is not to say that there are not some men who consciously choose to marry non-muslim, but I do not think that is the norm.

As this thread seems to also have turned into a bit of a confessional I will admit that I would prefer to marry a muslim, I would not rule out marry a non-muslim. To put it bluntly, I would rather be with someone who I can relate to who is not muslim than someone who is muslim but with whom I have nothing in common and see the world in completely different ways. What I am saying is, thank you Mr. Pakistani, for the hundredth time, I do not want to marry your niece straight for Karachi. Some people can do that sort of thing, but not me. Compatibility is very important and we have to realize that you can't just stick two people around the same age together and expect things to work out and people are simply more compatible with people they have had similar experiences to. If I were to ever, by some miracle, to meet someone who could put up with me and I could stand them, then who am I to be picky.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 01, 2008 - 1:02PM #27
USMuslim
Posts: 167
[QUOTE=Atsila;178372]I don't think endgame was promoting the idea, just saying that it is one reason and I also believe this.  It's the same sort of idea as the Black man, white woman thing back in the mid 1900s.  wassalam,
Atsila[/QUOTE]

Just to clarify, I wasn't commenting on Endgame's posts, I was commenting on the guy who said, " It has been, and still is, used as means of emasculating the enemy, since they can't even defend their own women, reminding non-muslim men of their inferior status. There is more to this non-muslim woman chasing than just sex."

I find Endgame's comments very mature and sensible.

And I agree with you on the black man/white woman thing comment. I think there is a hint of resentment in a few of these comments toward convert women, as though we may be usurping a "born Muslim's" place with Muslim men or something....
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 01, 2008 - 1:32PM #28
USMuslim
Posts: 167
[QUOTE=Miraj;178639]You answered part of it in your post above.

For one thing, a born Muslim is less likely to be "tired of" Christianity, or have the kind of animosity expressed by many converts toward their old religion because of the harm they felt it did to them. I hear that alot from converts, a rejection of the old stuff that makes them want to emerge themselves into the new thing and creat a whole new identity. Creating new identity is a convert issue, although you can find it in those who become newly enamored with their current religion, too.

Converts are learning from scratch; that's another perspective they don't share with born Muslims, who, no matter how much or little engaged with the faith, simply have a higher comfort level with it and don't feel threatened by moving beyond what many converts would consider to be their boundaries as a Muslim. The reason why I'm asking the question is because born Muslims don't seem to any longer feel the same impetus you ascribe to them - to marry other Muslims because they would share a common faith. For one thing, Muslims don't seem to share a common faith anymore. There is far more sectarianism in Islam than in decades past. A lot of Muslims actually feel as comfortable with non-Muslims as they do with Muslims.

These are things you don't pick up if you are relatively new to being Muslims or relating to them. There is a difference between being born and raised Muslim and being a convert, and no one needs to be offended by that being said. It's the same as if you went to China and felt called to become Chinese. It would be obvious to the Chinese that you we'ren't born Chinese, that you had a learning curve, and that some of the things you believe about being Chinese or not being Chinese are a little strange to those who are already Chinese.

I hope that helps.

Salaam[/QUOTE]


Respectfully, I've known life-long born Muslims who have so much cultural baggage mixed in with their Islamic knowledge they understand less about the faith than their new Muslim counterparts. Convert Muslims may be more intent than you on following the tenants of the faith simply because they have already explored those "out of bounds" parts of life and don't have any need or desire to explore beyond them any longer.

Faith is not a birthright, nor is it a matter of your ancestors.  For those who have been guided toward Islam were destined be Muslims, regardless of their "heritage", so it's not a self-hatred thing. A person whose parents were Christians for example, doesn't reject Christianity because they are rebelling, it's because they have been guided by God in that direction. You are not the only one who thinks her faith is her heritage. I recall one day in the grocery store when an elderly, well dressed man approached me after several minutes of staring and said, "may I ask you where your people are from?" I told him in my obvious American voice, that my "people" were German. He continued to look puzzled and said, "but, why the..." and gestured to my hijab. I said, "This is an expression of my faith. I am a Muslim, it has nothing to do with my genealogy; it is my faith." He made more comments to the effect that he thought I looked German or Anglo Saxon and didn't understand why I was dressed that way, etc. His comments gave me the feeling that I had somehow "jumped ship" and betrayed the Lutherans, as if I was a traitor. I have had to answer this type of question so many times I've lost count over the years. So Christians also often look at their faith as a heritage issue. 

There are surely a few converts who end up there because they are chasing a Muslim man, however, the Islam doesn't "stick" and they weren't being thoughtful about the conversion to begin with, but my experience is that most young women are sincere in their beliefs. As any convert can tell all, it's not easy walking away from your family's faith, their traditions, and embrace a much more disciplined way of life, especially in the West, where you are not always welcomed by the greater society, given the current political climate. And then to top it off, you get the suspicious types like the Miraj inside the Muslim community who aren't ready to accept you as part the community because you weren't born into it. Every convert Muslim can relate to Yusuf Islam's (formally Cat Stevens) comment that if he had met Muslims before he learned about Islam, he wouldn't have embraced Islam.

Your last analogy regarding being Chinese is again going back to ethnic identity and your heritage perspective. It's a convenient example for you to use because being Chinese is something you can never change, nor could an African (as an example) ever become an Asian. It's a club the African cannot join, no matter how well he speaks Mandarin and knows the culture, and the Chinese can always say, "You speak the language perfectly, but, friend you are not Chinese!" This ethnocentric mentality in your comments are what I would say show arrogance toward convert Muslims.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 01, 2008 - 2:00PM #29
USMuslim
Posts: 167
[QUOTE=Faqir;178721]The lack of an intelligent strategy to facilitate muslim men and women interacting and meeting with a view towards marriage is also a major barrier. [/QUOTE]

You hit the nail on the head, at least in terms of American Muslim society. I have seen young Muslims struggling to find proper venues to even meet each other. You can read other posts in other threads that illustrate this point.
The American Muslim community around the country needs to step up and organize activities for singles to meet in halal ways and not think life is as it was "back home" where there was a huge network of family and friends. Muslim parents and community leaders need to put more effort into providing ways for young adults to interact and work together in a manner that is decent and engaging. and I'm not referring to the Islamic convention "speed-mating" venues!
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 01, 2008 - 3:23PM #30
sazaj36
Posts: 331
Atsila

I do know that sex is often used as a form of dominance and power...I was married to a man for 20 years that used sex for just that reason...and usually as a punishment as well....sigh...

I guess the point I was trying to make is that men see sex as the "reward" for efforts made...whether it be wooing his current interest...or conquering new lands and overcoming enemies....if the reward wasnt in the offing...then the effort probably wouldnt be made...
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