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Locked: Evangelical view of catholicism
6 years ago  ::  Aug 04, 2008 - 2:24PM #1
Eddie13
Posts: 40
I know there have been several threads  in which  the beliefs of catholics abnd evangelicals have been compared.  However i do not want to go over the differences and have a few simple questions.  Do you either personally or speaking for evangelicals as a whole cobnsider roman catholics to be christians? I know some radical fundementalists believe the catholic church is a non christian cult  that worshipps  the pope, or that it is pagan. Are these common evangelical bel;iefs?  Do you conbsider the catholic church to be valid church through which people can be saved, or do you believe that their beliefs are to different from evangelical christianity and that all catholics will go to hell?
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 04, 2008 - 8:34PM #2
POC777
Posts: 1,546
[QUOTE=Eddie13;668127]I know there have been several threads  in which  the beliefs of catholics abnd evangelicals have been compared.  However i do not want to go over the differences and have a few simple questions. 

Do you either personally or speaking for evangelicals as a whole cobnsider roman catholics to be christians?

I personally know many on this website and in person at church. They're born-again Christians!

I know some radical fundementalists believe the catholic church is a non christian cult  that worshipps  the pope, or that it is pagan.

[/b]To break it down for you Evangelical Christians don't believe in the following:

1. Salvation through the seven sacraments
2. Not
3. Prayer to Mary, saints and angels
4. The doctrines of the purgatory and indulgences
5. Worship of Mary
6. The Aprophyca
7. The infallibilty of the Pope
8. Salvation by works
9. RCC only saves

There's many more things but you get the idea[/b]

Are these common evangelical beliefs?

Does the above answer your question?

Do you conbsider the catholic church to be valid church through which people can be saved, or do you believe that their beliefs are to different from evangelical christianity and that all catholics will go to hell?[/QUOTE]

I asked a Catholic once this question: If you die today(God forbid) will you go to Heaven?. Many have told me, no and others yes, I asked them why and only few told me because Jesus died for their sin and have received Him.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 04, 2008 - 8:36PM #3
POC777
Posts: 1,546
Forgive me, for number 2, it meant to say Not Justisfied in God's Sight.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 04, 2008 - 8:34PM #4
POC777
Posts: 1,546
[QUOTE=Eddie13;668127]I know there have been several threads  in which  the beliefs of catholics abnd evangelicals have been compared.  However i do not want to go over the differences and have a few simple questions. 

Do you either personally or speaking for evangelicals as a whole cobnsider roman catholics to be christians?

I personally know many on this website and in person at church. They're born-again Christians!

I know some radical fundementalists believe the catholic church is a non christian cult  that worshipps  the pope, or that it is pagan.

[/b]To break it down for you Evangelical Christians don't believe in the following:

1. Salvation through the seven sacraments
2. Not
3. Prayer to Mary, saints and angels
4. The doctrines of the purgatory and indulgences
5. Worship of Mary
6. The Aprophyca
7. The infallibilty of the Pope
8. Salvation by works
9. RCC only saves

There's many more things but you get the idea[/b]

Are these common evangelical beliefs?

Does the above answer your question?

Do you conbsider the catholic church to be valid church through which people can be saved, or do you believe that their beliefs are to different from evangelical christianity and that all catholics will go to hell?[/QUOTE]

I asked a Catholic once this question: If you die today(God forbid) will you go to Heaven?. Many have told me, no and others yes, I asked them why and only few told me because Jesus died for their sin and have received Him.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 04, 2008 - 8:36PM #5
POC777
Posts: 1,546
Forgive me, for number 2, it meant to say Not Justisfied in God's Sight.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 06, 2008 - 1:45PM #6
LiveOak
Posts: 119
Dear Eddie:

There is only one church, which is the body of Christ, and it is irrespective of the sign on the door of the building where Christians congregate. That said, the Bible is clear on how each of us can become a Christian, and stay a Christian, and unfortunately there are a lot of teachers in many of these building that don't teach what the Bible says on how to become and stay a Christian, such that many people are steered away from salvation.

See Rev 2-3 and see the judgments on the churches in Asia, and see which of those churches you would want to fellowship with. Specifically, the judgment on the church in Sardis was that they were dead as a whole, but there were a few people that would walk with Jesus, despite the cancer around them. I use Sardis to represent most "Christian" communities whose teachings do not match the Bible, especially regarding how to become a Christian, which makes it hard for their disciples to be disciples of Christ. Is it possible to be a Christian there? Yes. Are there better choices? Absolutely, and we should be very diligent about searching the scriptures and join ourselves with a body of believers that teaches the truth according to the Bible, or we may find ourselves in the dead portion of Sardis.

In addition to POC777's list of RCC teachings that don't follow the Bible, I find the biggest issue left off the list, which is the role of baptism as stated in the Bible. The RCC will srinkle infants and call it "baptism", but in the original Greek, the word "baptism" means "immersion", and was their term for an immersion in water that was the rite of passage for a believer to become a Christian.

Galatians 3:26-28 says "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Romans 6:3-4 describes how baptism is the burial of our sinful selves into Christ's death, and our arising from the water is our uniting with his resurrection. We do not bury a body by sprinkling it with dirt, but by completely covering it in the earth (or with a big stone). We also don't bury living bodies, but dead ones (for those who believe salvation comes before baptism - there are more scriptures on this if anyone's interested).

1 Peter 3:20-21 compares baptism to the flood that covered and cleansed the sinful world; "this water symbolized baptism that now saves you also, not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." People have in recent centuries decided that we can offer that same pledge of a good conscience toward God by saying a "sinner's prayer", but that is not what the Bible says (and see Romans 10:1-4 to see that Jews who were "zealous for God" were not saved, because they did not submit to God's righteousness. "Loving God" cannot be accomplished without "obeying God.").

In Acts 2, Peter gave a sermon to the Jews gathered for the feast of Pentecost, and convinced them that they had crucified the Christ. They were cut to the heart and asked what they should do? Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." "Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about 3000 were added to their number that day."

After Jesus was raised, he gave last instructions in Mark 16:15-16, saying "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Baptism without belief (which is what infant baptism is) does not save souls, as it is not the pledge of a good conscience towards God.

So the question regarding the RCC, or any church for that matter, how many members were added to their number (the church) the way that the Bible shows?
If baptism means to be immersed in water for the forgiveness of our sins, because in baptism a believer/repenter gives his/her pledge of a good conscience toward God, and if in baptism we are united with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and in baptism we are clothed with Christ, then can we be a Christian without following these instructions? (note that the thief on the cross died before the resurrection of Jesus, therefore dying under the OT; all other salvations in the NT involved baptism in water.) If not, that teaching is a clear sign of the "church of Sardis" (at best), and everyone there should be correcting that teaching or finding another congregation that teaches correctly.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 07, 2008 - 9:03AM #7
walkingeagles
Posts: 790
Some Catholic Biblical beliefs.

II. We are not Guaranteed Salvation; We Hope For Salvation

Heb. 7:27, 9:12,26;10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.

Heb. 9:12 - Christ's sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God's doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of "once saved, always saved," such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.

Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the "hope" (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?

Rom. 5:5 - this "hope" does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Our hope is assured if we persevere to the end.

Rom. 8:24 - this "hope" of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?

Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews "may be saved." Why pray if it's guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?

Rom. 12:12 - rejoice in your "hope" (not your certainty), be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.

2 Cor. 3:12 - since we have a "hope" (not a certainty), we are very bold. We can be bold when we are in God�s grace and our persevering in obedient faith.

Gal. 5:5 - for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the "hope" (not the certainty) of righteousness.

Eph. 1:18 - that you may know what is the "hope" to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance.

Eph. 4:4 - there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one "hope" (not the one certainty) that belongs to your call.

Eph. 6:10-17 � Paul instructs the Ephesians to take the whole armor of God, the breastplate of righteousness, and the helmet of salvation, in order �to stand,� lest they fall. Paul does not give any assurance that the spiritual battle is already won.

Phil. 3:11 - Paul shares Christ's sufferings so that "if possible" he may attain resurrection. Paul does not view his own resurrection as a certainty.

Phil. 1:20 - as it is my eager expectation and "hope" (not certainty) that I shall not be at all ashamed before Christ.

Col. 1:5 - Paul refers to the "hope" (not guarantee) that Christ laid up for us in heaven.

Col. 1:23 - provided that you continue in the faith, not shifting from the "hope" of the gospel which you heard.

Col. 1:27 - to them God chose to make known His mystery, which is Christ in you, the "hope" (not the certainty) of His glory.

1 Thess. 1:3 - remembering before our God your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of "hope" in Jesus Christ.

1 Thess. 2:19 - for what is our "hope" or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?

1 Thess. 5:8 - we must put on the helmet of "hope" (not of certainty) of salvation.

2 Thess. 2:16 - the Lord Jesus and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good "hope" through grace.

1 Tim. 1:1 - Paul describes Christ Jesus as our "hope" (not our guarantee). We can reject Him and He will allow this.

1 Tim. 4:10 - Paul says we toil and strive because we have our "hope" (not our assurance) on the living God. This is not because God is unfaithful, but because we can be unfaithful. We toil and strive for our salvation.

1 Tim. 5:5 - she who is a real widow, and is left all alone, has set her "hope" (not her assurance) on God. Our hope is a guarantee only if we persevere to the end.

1 Tim. 5:15 � Paul writes that some have already strayed after satan, as God Himself tells us in 1 Tim. 4:1. They were on the right path, and then strayed off of it.

2 Tim. 2:10 - Paul endures for the elect so that they "may also obtain salvation." This verse teaches us that even the "elect,� from the standpoint of human knowledge, have no guarantee of salvation.

Titus 1:2 - Paul says that he is in the "hope" (not the certainty) of eternal life. Paul knows that his hope is a guarantee if he perseveres, but his ability to choose sin over God makes his attainment of eternal life less than an absolute certainty until it is actually achieved.

Titus 2:13 - awaiting our blessed "hope," the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 3:7 - Paul says we have been given the Spirit so we might become heirs in the "hope" (not the certainty) of eternal life.

Heb. 3:6 - we are Christ's house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our "hope" (not our certainty).

Heb. 6:11 - we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of "hope" (not certainty) until the end.

Heb. 6:18 - we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the "hope" (not the certainty) that is set before us.

Heb. 6:19 - we have a "hope" that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone before us.

Heb. 7:19 - on the other hand, a better "hope" (not certainty) is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

Heb. 10:23 - let us hold fast the confession of our "hope" without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.

Heb. 11:1 - now faith is the assurance of things "hoped" for (not guaranteed), the conviction of things not seen (heaven).

Heb. 12:1 � let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.

Heb. 12:15 � see to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness spring up and cause trouble, and by it many become defiled.

James 1:12 - we must endure trial and withstand the test in order to receive the crown of life. It is not guaranteed.

1 Peter 1:3 - by His mercy we have been born anew to a living "hope" through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

1 Peter 1:13 - set your "hope" (not assurance) fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:21 - through Him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead so that your faith and "hope" are in God.

1 Peter 2:2 - like newborn babes, long for spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation. How can you grow up to something you already possess?

1 Peter 3:15 - always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the "hope" that is in you.

1 John 3:3 - and everyone who thus "hopes" in Him purifies himself as He is pure. These verses teach us that we must cooperate with God�s grace and persevere to the end to be saved. We can and do have a moral certitude of salvation if we persevere in faith, hope and love.

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6 years ago  ::  Aug 07, 2008 - 9:06AM #8
walkingeagles
Posts: 790
Scripture

I. Good Works in Sanctifying Grace are Necessary for Salvation

Neh. 13:14, Psalm 11:7,28:4, Isa. 3:10, 59:18, Jer. 25:14, 50:29, Ezek. 9:10, 11:21, 36:19, Hos. 4:9, 9:15, 12:2, Sir. 16:12,14 - The 2,000 year-old Catholic position on salvation is that we are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone (cf. Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and works. Many Protestants, on the other hand, believe that one just has to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior to be saved, and good works are not necessary (they just flow from those already saved). But these verses, and many others, teach us that our performance of good works is necessary for our salvation. Scripture also does not teach that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved.

Sir. 35:19; Luke 23:41; John 3:19-21, Rom. 8:13, 2 Tim 4:14, Titus 3:8,14, Rev. 22:12 - these verses also teach us that we all will be judged by God according to our deeds. There is no distinction between the "saved" and the "unsaved."

1 Cor. 3:15 - if works are unnecessary for salvation as many Protestants believe, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works?

Matt. 7:1-3 - we are not judged just by faith, but actually how we judge others, and we get what we have given. Hence, we are judged according to how we responded to God's grace during our lives.

Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. If this is true, then how can Protestants believe in the erroneous teaching of "Once saved, always saved?" If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved.

Matt. 16:27 � Jesus says He will repay every man for what he has done (works).

Matt. 25:31-46 - Jesus' teaching on the separation of the sheep from the goats is based on the works that were done during their lives, not just on their acceptance of Christ as Savior. In fact, this teaching even demonstrates that those who are ultimately saved do not necessarily have to know Christ. Also, we don�t accept Christ; He accepts us. God first makes the decision to accept us before we could ever accept Him.

Matt. 25:40,45 - Jesus says "Whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did it to Me." We are judged and our eternal destiny is determined in accordance with our works.

Mark 10:21 - Jesus says sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. This means that our salvation depends upon our works.

Luke 12:43-48 - these verses teach us that we must act according to the Lord's will. We are judged based upon what we know and then do, not just upon what we know.

Luke 14:14 � Jesus says we are repaid for the works we have done at the resurrection of the just. Our works lead to salvation.

Luke 23:41 - some Protestants argue that Jesus gave salvation to the good thief even though the thief did not do any good works. However, the good thief did in fact do a good work, which was rebuking the bad thief when he and others were reviling Jesus. This was a "work" which justified the good thief before Jesus and gained His favor. Moreover, we don't know if the good thief asked God for forgiveness, did works of penance and charity and was reconciled to God before he was crucified.

Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God's grace.

2 Cor. 5:10 - at the judgment Seat of Christ, we are judged according to what we have done in the body, not how much faith we had.

2 Cor. 9:6 � Paul says that he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully, in connection with God�s judgment.

2 Cor. 11:15 - our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation.

Gal. 6:7-9 � whatever a man sows, he will reap. Paul warns the Galatians not to grow weary in doing good works, for in due season they will reap (the rewards of eternal life).

Eph. 6:8 � whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same again from the Lord.

Col. 3:24-25 - we will receive due payment according to what we have done. Even so, Catholics recognize that such payment is a free unmerited gift from God borne from His boundless mercy.

1 Tim. 6:18-19 � the rich are to be rich in good deeds so that they may take hold of the life which is life indeed, that is, eternal life.

2 Tim. 4:14 � Alexander the coppersmith did Paul great harm, and Paul says the Lord will requite him for his deeds.

Heb. 6:10 - God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for His sake. God rewards our works on earth and in heaven.

Heb. 12:14 � without holiness, no one will see the Lord. Holiness requires works of self-denial and charity, and does not come about simply by a profession of faith.

1 Peter 1:17 - God judges us impartially according to our deeds. We participate in applying the grace Jesus won for us at Calvary in our daily lives.

Rev. 2:5 - Jesus tells the Ephesians they have fallen from love they used to have, and orders them to do good works. He is not satisfied with their faith alone. They need to do more than accept Him as personal Lord and Savior.

Rev. 2:10 � Jesus tells the church in Smyrna to be faithful unto death, and He will give them the crown of life. This is the faith of obedience to His commandments.

Rev. 2:19 - Jesus judges the works of the Thyatirans, and despises their tolerance of Jezebel, calling them to repentance.

Rev. 2:23 - Jesus tells us He will give to each of us as our works deserve. He crowns His own gifts by rewarding our good works.

Rev. 2:26 - Jesus says he who conquers and keeps my works until the end will be rewarded in heaven. Jesus thus instructs us to keep his works to the very end. This is not necessary if we are "once saved, always saved."

Rev. 3:2-5,8,15 � Jesus is judging our works from heaven, and these works bear upon our eternal salvation. If we conquer sin through faith and works, He will not blot our names out of the book of life. This means that works bear upon our salvation. Our �works� do not just deal with level of reward we will receive, but whether we will in fact be saved.

Rev. 3:15 � Jesus says, �I know your works, you are neither cold nor hot. Because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth.� Jesus is condemning indifferentism, which is often based on our works.

Rev. 14:13 - we are judged by the Lord by our works � �for their deeds follow them!� Our faith during our life is completed and judged by our works.

Rev. 20:12 � �the dead are judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.�

Rev. 22:12 � Jesus says, �Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay everyone for what he has done.�

Sirach 16:12,14 � we are judged according to our deeds, and will receive in accordance with our deeds.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 07, 2008 - 9:08AM #9
walkingeagles
Posts: 790
IV. Jesus' Teaching on Losing Salvation

Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.

Matt. 7:21 - all those who say "Lord, Lord" on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.

Matt. 12:30-32 - Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against Him, therefore (the Greek for "therefore" is "dia toutos" which means "through this") blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus' grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives.

Matt. 22:14 - Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God's banquet, but was cast out.

Luke 8:13 - Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.

Luke 12:42-46 - we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.

Luke 15:11-32 � in the parable of the prodigal son, we learn that we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as "alive again."

John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.

John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don't bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.

John 17:12 - we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.

John 6:37 - those who continue to come to Jesus He won't cast out. But it's a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.

John 6:39 - Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.

John 6:40 - everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person "continues" to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God.

John 6:44 - Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father "draws" him. This "drawing" is an ongoing process.

John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, "no one shall snatch them out of my hands," He does not mean we can't leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.

Rev. 2:4-5 � Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven).

Rev. 3:4 - in Sardis, Jesus explained that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.

Rev. 3:5 - Jesus says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life (see Exodus 32:33). This means that we can be blotted out of the book of life. We can have salvation, and then lose salvation by our choice.

Rev. 3:11 - Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown of salvation and lose it.

Rev. 13:10; 14:12 - we are called from heaven for the endurance and faith of the saints, keeping the commandments and faith.

Rev. 21:7 - we must conquer in order to share in our heritage and become a true son of Jesus.

Rev. 22:19 - we can have a share in the tree of life in God's holy city and yet have that share taken away from us.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 07, 2008 - 2:37PM #10
Anesis
Posts: 1,543
Hello, walkingeagles.

Thank you for  the Catholic perspective on those particular subjects. The OP was looking for an Evangelical Christian view on Catholicism.

I do not speak for all Evangelicals, of course. In my experience, I have known Catholics who go out  and live like there is no God to love, thinking it's okay because they will go to confession and do their penance and that will be that. I also know of a few Catholics who were very devout believers, born again as Jesus commanded, and who daily sought to live for him.

Here's the part that makes us all equal: There are evangelicals who also live like they want, "repent" in the morning, and think that's okay, but there are devout followers of the Lord Jesus.

It isn't so much a matter of 'religion', but of relationship. I have a friend I've known for 40 years. She was raised Catholic with her 8 brothers and sisters. Half of them left religion altogether, and the other half left Catholicism for Evangelical churches. I don't know anything about Catholic teaching, but my friend said many of their teachings were not biblically sound.
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