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Switch to Forum Live View SST: The Nitty Gritty of Magical Living
6 years ago  ::  Jul 07, 2008 - 11:01PM #11
Phreakiboi
Posts: 4
Never mind on the SST thing.  I just saw the sticky!  =)
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 08, 2008 - 9:29AM #12
KeaErisdottir
Posts: 222
[QUOTE=Phreakiboi;610029]I often find myself in the struggle to find the "right" way of Wicca.  And I think one of the things that renews my love of Wicca and interesting in it is exactly what you have said, Kea.  There isn't a right way.  All of the answers aren't out there, and no one would ever agree on them if they were.[/quote]

I think that you are entirely too quick to apply what I said to a religious setting, when really I was speaking of the spirituality of the individual.  Certainly, people can believe what they want in the privacy of their homes, and if they can live with the consequences of their actions, acknowledge that ALL of their actions have intended and unintended consequences, and further can acknowledge that sometimes there is not going to be a good outcome, and that all of it is going to be unpleasant, in order to get through or past something, then they have taken the necessary steps required to live a life constrained only by their conscience. 

Such a person, by definition, would have to be the most moral of creatures, in order to use such freedom responsibly and wisely.

At this point, I believe it is right for an individual to consider becoming Wiccan, not before.  Because religion is a shared experience between a group of individuals, rules have to exist, and people have to be free to agree to those rules in order to be part of a religious group.

[QUOTE]I like that you talk about self-responsibilty, Kea.  One of the tenets by which I try to live my life is self-responsibility.  America today has molded itself into a people who expect the world to kiss their ass.  And I'm sure you would agree that the world would rather its lips be elsewhere![/QUOTE]

The first two sentences seemingly have nothing to do with the last two.  While I commend you for taking personal responsibility seriously, I don't understand why it bleeds over into anti-American sentiment, or why Americans have a unique ownership of wanting the world to kiss its ass.  Nor do I agree that it is necessarily more true of Americans than it is anyone else--the West has plenty of hubris floating around these days.

But more to the point, personal responsibility is just that--personal.

[QUOTE]I lovelovelove that you nipped the Law of Return, etc., in the bud!  I always found that a bit silly.  And "three" seemed like a rather random number (as do five, seven, etc.!).  I do find the Rede helpful, though.  Not the watered down "Harm none," because that's completely impossible and *unnatural*!  [/QUOTE]

I think that you need to understand here that I am referencing those laws in the sense they were taught to me--as a highly nuanced set of maxims and axioms intended to remind a moral and ethical creature of themselves as they proceed.  The context that those maxims and axioms were taught to me was specifically magical, because it was understood that wielding magics of the sort that initiates have access to creates ripples through Reality, and that it is morally mandatory to be ready to accept responsibility for what you do. 

All this other moralism that has been applied to the maxims and axioms, while I believe well intended, is not the beliefs of free people.  It's just another case of people, being given the freedom to be what they will, choosing to be what they had always been, but under a shiny new name.

[QUOTE]The version I use, "An it harm none, do as you will" (or however you know it--it does vary a lot, doesn' tit?) is, to me, an ideal.  To me, it says "When you are harming no one, you are completely free."  But since that's completely impossible, it says to me that the goal is to try to help as much as possible.  That will involve harming at times, of course, but the goal is there.[/QUOTE]

To me, it simply states that acts that cause no harm, like singing, dancing, being naked, and making love, are completely permissable.  It is silent about acts that cause harm, because you are supposed to be able to live with the consequences if you do them.  IMO, the only goal of the The Rede in its original form, which is the only version I pay any attention to, is to serve as a poetic reminder of some basics--and I also note that there is a lot more in that poem that people conveniently ignore.
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 10, 2008 - 5:38PM #13
Phreakiboi
Posts: 4
(Firstly, forgive me if this formats incorrectly.  I'm new to quoting other messages, and I couldn't find any help on it.  Experiential learning at its best!)

[QUOTE=KeaErisdottir;611044]I think that you are entirely too quick to apply what I said to a religious setting, when really I was speaking of the spirituality of the individual.[/QUOTE]

I disagree.  I reference your original post: "This is Wicca. We aren't conformists. We supposed to be free."

I feel that working with a religion is a reflection of one's spirituality.  In the way that I discussed, I feel it reflects the choice you emphasize in your original post.  In trying to find the "right way" (inasmuch as there is one), one must make those very choices.  And accept the consequences that come from them as they support or challenge our original decision.

[QUOTE]The first two sentences seemingly have nothing to do with the last two. While I commend you for taking personal responsibility seriously, I don't understand why it bleeds over into anti-American sentiment, or why Americans have a unique ownership of wanting the world to kiss its ass. Nor do I agree that it is necessarily more true of Americans than it is anyone else--the West has plenty of hubris floating around these days.[/QUOTE]

I completely agree with your first sentence.  My original logic was that most Americans seem to want to place blame on others, be defensive, and thus not take responsibility.

And please understand that my sentiment is not anti-American or unique to America.  I simply speak from an American perspective that observes America.  I haven't been to any other country, and I can't speak for or about them.  Sorry for the confusion!

[QUOTE]All this other moralism that has been applied to the maxims and axioms, while I believe well intended, is not the beliefs of free people.[/QUOTE]

Could you please elaborate more on this?  I'm very intrigued!  What do you understand the beliefs of free people to be?  Based on your original post, I'd guess those beliefs that they chose to accept.  Perhaps reasoned on their own.  But I don't want to speculate too much!  =)

I look forward to your reply, Kea!

Best wishes,

Phreakiboi
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 10, 2008 - 6:31PM #14
KeaErisdottir
Posts: 222
[QUOTE=Phreakiboi;616509]I disagree.  I reference your original post: "This is Wicca. We aren't conformists. We supposed to be free."[/quote]

This incorrectly assumes that when I speak of Wicca, that I include the set of all people who identify themselves as Wiccans.  There is, in my estimation, very little that a person living by those principles has in common with the average self-identified wiccan, who is frequently not even close to embracing personal responsibility, let alone being a master of their Fate, and frequently prone to acting out without considering the consequences.

[QUOTE]I feel that working with a religion is a reflection of one's spirituality. [/QUOTE]

Whereas my religion and my spriruality are actually quite different.  This is especially true as I count myself a member of 4 religious groups, all of which require a certain amount of compromise of my spirituality in order to participate.

[QUOTE]In the way that I discussed, I feel it reflects the choice you emphasize in your original post.  In trying to find the "right way" (inasmuch as there is one), one must make those very choices.  And accept the consequences that come from them as they support or challenge our original decision.
[/QUOTE]

But as I have since pointed out above, you cannot really become a Wiccan until you have crossed a certain point in personal spiritual development and ethical conduct.  Lots of people, however, claim the title before they even understand what being a Wiccan is really about.

[QUOTE]Could you please elaborate more on this?  I'm very intrigued!  What do you understand the beliefs of free people to be?  Based on your original post, I'd guess those beliefs that they chose to accept.  Perhaps reasoned on their own.  But I don't want to speculate too much!  =)[/QUOTE]

In short, free people are commanded by no conscience but their own.  There has been a lot of turgid prose written about the last eight words of the Wiccan Rede.  To what end has all the chatter taken us?  Mostly a lot of interpretation, taken completely out of context of any tradition or oral teaching, that has subsequently elevated itself to Abrahamic Morality.

Why? because that is the system that the people adopting those interpretations find most comfortable to ultimately practice in.  People accept them, and the application of terminology from those religions applied to Wicca, for reasons related less to the worship of the Gods of Wicca and quite a bit more because they need to feel just as good as those other groups. 

Or, to rebel against them.  People in rebellion aren't free either.  I've rejected students in the past because they had not managed to reconcile their conflicts with former religious affiliations.  You can't move forward when you are eternally trapped in your past.
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2009 - 8:14PM #15
KeaErisdottir
Posts: 222

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