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6 years ago  ::  Aug 27, 2008 - 1:58PM #31
Shlomo613
Posts: 131
[QUOTE=Shlomo613;718193]...Eber, the grandson of Noah. Eber established Beit Eber....[/QUOTE]

Oops, my bad. I meant to say he was descended from Noah, not grandson. Eber was the great-grandson of Shem, who was the son of Noah. Shem also established a Noachide school, Beit Shem, but Eber's lasted longer.  I guess one can't edit posts after a while, I was meaning to come back and fix that. Also I wanted to add to my post that Christians and, well, just about any gentile who doesn't worship actual idols can become Noachide without compromising their current religion. Shalom.
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 17, 2008 - 6:07PM #32
basbaisdovid
Posts: 7
I have spent many years teaching Bnei Noach, also known as Noachides. Bnei Noach means descendants of Noach, and as all humans are descended from Noach and associated with the lessons and commandments from that point, all humans are technically Bnei Noach. Since one of the mitzvot/commands for Bnei Noach, for all humans, is to not worship idols, a ben Noach or Noachide who worships idols is doing what he ought not. A better understanding of Bnei Noach would be, humans who are dedicated to the path that G-d set out for humans after the Flood, with Jews being a specific subset; aside from the 7 categories (there are actually far more than 7 specific laws), we have many other mitzvot that are not required of the rest of humanity. When looking at it this way, one can consider the Bnei Noach path, or the Noachide movement, to be a path to G-d with a religion of 7 main (and many other details) mitzvot, while Judaism is a path to G-d with a religion of 613 mitzvot.

There was a Catholic priest, Aime Paliere,  in France who, after learning and praying and thinking, was motivated in  heart, mind, and soul to become a Jew, but did not because it would have brought pain to his mother, a devout Catholic. He poured out his heart and soul in letters to a rabbi Eliyahu Benmozegh, who told Palliere that he did not have to convert to Judaism to be loved by G-d, and there was great worth in being a ben Noach devoted to the halachic path for Bnei Noach. The correspondence was made into a book called, "The Unknown Sancutary."

I recommend and even urge you to read this, and if you would like, write to me and ask any questions, give me  your impression of the book, or just chat.
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 17, 2008 - 6:10PM #33
basbaisdovid
Posts: 7
The school (Beit Midrash) was called the beit midrash or yeshiva of Shem v'Ever. Ever was Shem's grandson and Noach's great grandson.
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 17, 2008 - 6:07PM #34
basbaisdovid
Posts: 7
I have spent many years teaching Bnei Noach, also known as Noachides. Bnei Noach means descendants of Noach, and as all humans are descended from Noach and associated with the lessons and commandments from that point, all humans are technically Bnei Noach. Since one of the mitzvot/commands for Bnei Noach, for all humans, is to not worship idols, a ben Noach or Noachide who worships idols is doing what he ought not. A better understanding of Bnei Noach would be, humans who are dedicated to the path that G-d set out for humans after the Flood, with Jews being a specific subset; aside from the 7 categories (there are actually far more than 7 specific laws), we have many other mitzvot that are not required of the rest of humanity. When looking at it this way, one can consider the Bnei Noach path, or the Noachide movement, to be a path to G-d with a religion of 7 main (and many other details) mitzvot, while Judaism is a path to G-d with a religion of 613 mitzvot.

There was a Catholic priest, Aime Paliere,  in France who, after learning and praying and thinking, was motivated in  heart, mind, and soul to become a Jew, but did not because it would have brought pain to his mother, a devout Catholic. He poured out his heart and soul in letters to a rabbi Eliyahu Benmozegh, who told Palliere that he did not have to convert to Judaism to be loved by G-d, and there was great worth in being a ben Noach devoted to the halachic path for Bnei Noach. The correspondence was made into a book called, "The Unknown Sancutary."

I recommend and even urge you to read this, and if you would like, write to me and ask any questions, give me  your impression of the book, or just chat.
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 17, 2008 - 6:10PM #35
basbaisdovid
Posts: 7
The school (Beit Midrash) was called the beit midrash or yeshiva of Shem v'Ever. Ever was Shem's grandson and Noach's great grandson.
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 17, 2008 - 10:29PM #36
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617
[QUOTE=basbaisdovid;767518]Since one of the mitzvot/commands for Bnei Noach, for all humans, is to not worship idols, a ben Noach or Noachide who worships idols is doing what he ought not.



Good thing, then, that pretty much no major religion today actually practices idolatry.

A better understanding of Bnei Noach would be, humans who are dedicated to the path that G-d set out for humans after the Flood,



That's a bit problematic, since there never actually was a Flood. Moreover, isn't it interesting that God never bothered to actually inform anyone about these laws until some rabbis with way too much time on their hands deduced them from their own sacred scriptures -- and that no one outside fo Judaism had heard of these things until the Chabadniks started to popularize the idea? I guess God works in mysterious ways.

There was a Catholic priest, Aime Paliere,  in France who, after learning and praying and thinking, was motivated in  heart, mind, and soul to become a Jew, but did not because it would have brought pain to his mother, a devout Catholic. He poured out his heart and soul in letters to a rabbi Eliyahu Benmozegh, who told Palliere that he did not have to convert to Judaism to be loved by G-d, and there was great worth in being a ben Noach devoted to the halachic path for Bnei Noach.



Except there isn't much in that halakhic path for bnei Noach. No prayers, no liturgies, no holidays, no customs, none of the elements of religion that sanctify time and life cycle events and imbue the world in meaning. It's little more than a 2nd class auxiliary club attached to some ultra-Orthodox communities.

That priest would have been better served either remaining a Catholic or converting to Judaism.

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6 years ago  ::  Sep 22, 2008 - 4:45AM #37
Shlomo613
Posts: 131
I've thought a lot on this, but I doubt I will do a very good job in explaining, but I will try anyways....

First off, there are at least two MAJOR religions that make use of actual physical statue Idols. We all know who they are, I don't want to point fingers.

The 7 laws have been around alot longer than the Chabadniks, they just popularized them.

Ah, the Flood. I myself have issues with the flood, either it has to have taken place way earlier than the account indicates or has to be a lot more local. Sorry, the image of Polar Bears getting into the Ark prior to a global flood is just beyond my ability to accept. Now, a local flood like the Black Sea flood, there's maybe some hope. Or a bigger flood but further back in human history when all of humanity was still in one basic geographic area.  It bothers me. BUT it doesn't change the fact that while mankind had no Moses to bring them the 7, they knew these were G-ds commandments nevertheless. Tho shalt not Murder is as old as Cain & Able, for example.

On to the Noachide religion. That's the problem really, it's not much of a religion is it? Seven laws or 30 or whatever, they're all negative... 'Tho Shalt Not"...

That's great for a 'Minimum System Requirement' for humanity, a bedrock foundation for all religions to build from.
All of humanity is Nochide, in addition to Jew or Christian or Moslem or anything else, whether they know it or not.

However for someone who wants to be Noachide exclusively... well... not much there is there? No positive Mitzvot. Nothing to do. No way to come closer to the Almighty... a dead end...

or is it?

What religion is a Noachide, a pure Noachide...? Could it be... now here you are gonna freak... JUDAISM?

WHAT? Shlomo, your nuts!

Nope. When the Temple stood, Nochides were an active part of it. They came and gave offerings. Offerings were made on their behalf. Jews might have been the priests, but the nations were the Laity, if they knew it or not. I could give many examples, but you know this to be true.

So, the Temple was destroyed and Jews found new ways... To cope. To serve. To pray. The Laity?... pretty much left on their own, eh? In my world view, this is what gave rise to Christianity and Islam... the failure of the Temple. HaShem gave Edom and Ishmael a new way to come to him. Not a popular view, but it fits. The failure of the Temple would not be allowed to remove these descendants of Abraham from their blessings, and HaShem.

I don't expect anyone to agree with this, but it's what I believe. So, just keep this in mind. Rosh HaShana is almost here. HaShem will judge ALL humanity, not just Jews.  EVERYONE gets Judged. Yom Kippur these judgments are sealed. For everyone. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone realized these are NOT 'Jewish' holidays? Don't they effect everyone? At least Noachides have a clue this is true, and repent and fast, as co-religionists. Maybe someday Jews will get the word out to everyone, and they will heed too. Would be nice, eh? I have little hope this will happen.

Or is there?
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 22, 2008 - 11:41AM #38
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617
[QUOTE=Shlomo613;775977]
First off, there are at least two MAJOR religions that make use of actual physical statue Idols. We all know who they are, I don't want to point fingers.



I count three: Catholicism, Buddhism (certain varieties), and Hinduism.

In no instance, however, do these religious pray to or worship the statues. They are not distressed that the statues have eyes but do not see, ears but do not hear, etc. because they do not believe that the statue is Jesus or Buddha or Vishnu. Nor do they believe, as the Egyptians did, that the deities in question inhabit the statues during worship. In all three religions, the statues (like the icons of the Eastern Churches) serve as focal points for concentration. They do not worship the statues, therefore they are not committing idolatry. The statues are OK for them because they are not subject to the detailed laws prohibiting images that Jews subscribe to.

The 7 laws have been around alot longer than the Chabadniks, they just popularized them.



Of course, but before Chabad -- before Schneerson, really, -- Noachidism was not touted as some kind of religious movement or label for people to follow. It was simply a legal category so that Jews could know who they could do business with and who could (theoretically) settle in Eretz Yisrael as a ger toshav.

Ah, the Flood. I myself have issues with the flood, either it has to have taken place way earlier than the account indicates or has to be a lot more local. Sorry, the image of Polar Bears getting into the Ark prior to a global flood is just beyond my ability to accept.



Don't forget koalas, who can eat only eucalyptus leaves, somehow had to get from Turkey to Australia without any source of food.

Now, a local flood like the Black Sea flood, there's maybe some hope. Or a bigger flood but further back in human history when all of humanity was still in one basic geographic area.  It bothers me.



If you just acknowledge that it is a myth -- that is it a story told to convey truth that doesn't need to be factually true -- then there is no problem. The further back you try to put the story, the more difficulty you have because of technology. It is generally agreed that Homo sapiens originated in the Great Rift Valley in Africa, although it's like that other sentient hominids like Neanderthals evolved in other locations. If we put the Flood back when all humans lived in the same area, we have to explain how  they suddenly developed shipbuilding technology sufficient to construct an ark. Moreover, you have to explain the bit about two of every kind of animal and water covering the tops of the highest mountains. It just doesn't work.

BUT it doesn't change the fact that while mankind had no Moses to bring them the 7, they knew these were G-ds commandments nevertheless. Tho shalt not Murder is as old as Cain & Able, for example.



Most species generally do not murder their own kind. It seems that human beings with our highly evolved brains can overcome the natural instinct against killing on of one's own. War has existed as far back as we can tell, and then there ancient religions that required human sacrifice. Claiming that this is somehow a divine command known to everyone in antiquity is a stretch.

But what about stealing and adultery? Private property and marriage are socially constructed things dependent on a given time and place. Stealing means something totally different in capitalist society than a tribal communistic society. Adultery means something totally different in a polygamous patriarchal society than a presumably egalitarian monogamy. For these to have been commandments binding from the dawn of recorded history is also problematic.

Then there are ritual ones -- idolatry and blasphemy. These are likewise determined culturally and socially and pretty much no one seemed to be aware of these laws until Jews told them about them.

Nope. When the Temple stood, Nochides were an active part of it. They came and gave offerings. Offerings were made on their behalf. Jews might have been the priests, but the nations were the Laity, if they knew it or not. I could give many examples, but you know this to be true.[/'quote]

Interesting. It was, of course, a common practice to pay honor to the gods of place you happened to visit. It was considered good manners, like thanking the host of a party you've attended. If one was in Rome, one honored Jupiter and Mars; if one was in Egypt, one honored Horus and Isis. Yahweh was the god of Judea, and so Gentiles made offerings at the Jerusalem temple. Indeed, a sacrifice was offered every day for the Roman emperor until they decided to destroy the Temple.

Yahweh/El started out as a local tribal god just like Jupiter, Mars, Horus, and Isis. The difference is that He became first the exclusive God for Israel and then the only God for the whole universe. Our ancestors originally believed that all these other gods existed, but Yahweh/El was the greatest and most important and the one they had a special exclusive relationship with. It was not until later that they came to believe that He was the ONLY God and that the other gods worshipped were either false lifeless idols or angels apportioned by the One God or something else. Certainly by the First Temple period Jews believed that all the nations of the world could worship Yahweh and that His Temple was a house of prayer for all peoples -- and the 70 bulls incinerated during Sukkot were offerings for the 70 nations of the world.

So, non-Jews would worship Yahweh in Jerusalem, but that doesn't mean they didn't worship other gods elsewhere. Also, it's worth noting that no where do the Jewish scriptures enjoin their readers to go out and convert other people to the One True Faith. Why is that?

]b]So, the Temple was destroyed and Jews found new ways... To cope. To serve. To pray. The Laity?... pretty much left on their own, eh? In my world view, this is what gave rise to Christianity and Islam... the failure of the Temple. HaShem gave Edom and Ishmael a new way to come to him. Not a popular view, but it fits. The failure of the Temple would not be allowed to remove these descendants of Abraham from their blessings, and HaShem.[/b]



This is cool.

At least Noachides have a clue this is true, and repent and fast, as co-religionists.[/QUOTE]

Noachides are not required to fast like Jews are.

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6 years ago  ::  Sep 23, 2008 - 4:30AM #39
Shlomo613
Posts: 131
[QUOTE=nieciedo;776461]
Of course, but before Chabad -- before Schneerson, really, -- Noachidism was not touted as some kind of religious movement or label for people to follow. It was simply a legal category so that Jews could know who they could do business with and who could (theoretically) settle in Eretz Yisrael as a ger toshav.


Yes, I have posted somewhere already that the ger toshav, aka ger ha-sha'ar is currently getting a raw deal as, for some reason, accepting them is tied to the Jubilee, which of course can't be resolved without the Moshiach. Why one issue is chained to the other makes no sense to me, sorry. They're similar but not at all co-dependent. Israel as a sovereign nation could and should declare the laws of gerim in force. It's a travesty, IMHO, how we treat the ger toshav. So we must have the Noachide separate from the fulfillment of a true co-religionist, a Ger Toshav. Because we won't let them fulfill what is, to them (I know a couple) their highest calling. WE shove them off on their own. It's sad, to me, and I grieve often of what could be.

If you just acknowledge that it is a myth -- that is it a story told to convey truth that doesn't need to be factually true -- then there is no problem.


I'm not quite ready to write off a major Torah event as myth. Some kind of flood happened, and it may have indeed been the Black Sea flood, which is AFAIK about the right time frame and certainly a major event that would have lasting effect. That is if Noach was there.

So, non-Jews would worship Yahweh in Jerusalem, but that doesn't mean they didn't worship other gods elsewhere. Also, it's worth noting that no where do the Jewish scriptures enjoin their readers to go out and convert other people to the One True Faith. Why is that?


Actually, from what I read from a lot of Christian scholars, communities of Noachides or semi-converts or  חסידי אומות העולם‎, Chassidey Umot HaOlam whatever you wish to call them were common throughout the Roman world, and was in no small part responsible for the spread of Christianity.

Noachides are not required to fast like Jews are.[/QUOTE]
True indeed, but it would be counted in their favor if they did so. What comes to mind is the story of Jonah we hear every High Holidays, how the people of Nineva fasted and put on sack-cloth and ashes and were spared. A bit of that kind of repentance would do the world good, I'm thinking.

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6 years ago  ::  Oct 04, 2008 - 1:42PM #40
etsryan
Posts: 1,640
[QUOTE=clyde5001;49544]Gavrie,

I was just going to say that and you beat me to it. Weren't they also call G-D fearers?

There should be some category of a friend of the Jewish people who has attached themselves to us in  a formal way. We've met people like that on these forums.[/QUOTE]

Friends of Jews...(what a concept)

Jews in Spirit?

Adopted Children of Abraham?
Risen Lord Jesus' Peace!
e.t./sue ><:> *:D (: + 
Yesh!  www.muttscomics.com
www.chesterton.org
American Chesterton Society Conference-usually in St Paul, MN Mid-June, but the 2009 Conference is scheduled Aug. 6-8 in Seattle, WA - you go, West Coast...
Some of what Gilbert K. Chesterton says:
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event."  (Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
"War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you."
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
"Men are ruled, at this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern."
"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."
"You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution."
"A citizen can hardly distinguish between a tax and a fine, except that the fine is generally much lighter."
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
"There are some desires that are not desirable."
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."
"You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion."
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