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Switch to Forum Live View My hijab, or my job?
6 years ago  ::  Jul 11, 2008 - 8:14AM #81
sazaj36
Posts: 331
Teenagers are notorious for "feeling ashamed" of their own parents for a number of reasons...how they dress is just one of many issues that come up. Consider that he is being a teenager about this rather than hateful towards your choice of religions etc. All teenagers are under great peer pressure and dont want to be "looked" at as strange or different or associated with strange or different in any way. Dont worry how you come off looking to other people...they are strangers and who cares what they think...right....but to a teen its a very real emotional issue...so consider his thought processes in all this. After all...you were a teenager once...yes?

Nobody said abandon hijab if thats what you believe in...but is the breakdown of your family worth it....please dont try and convince me God cares about your hair showing to the world more than your relationship with your son...that aint the God I read within the pages of the Holy Quran...just my opinion.
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 11, 2008 - 2:14PM #82
Ceren
Posts: 1,430
[QUOTE=muaminva;617216]AsSalaamu 'alaikum,

May Allah (SWA) bless all those sisters with enough faith to keep to their required hijab.

Masalaamah[/QUOTE]

And may Allah swt bless all those brothers with enough faith to keep to their required beard ;)
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 11, 2008 - 2:33PM #83
magi_77
Posts: 32
[QUOTE=Ceren;618226]And may Allah swt bless all those brothers with enough faith to keep to their required beard ;)[/QUOTE]

What if they don't want to wear a beard?  By not wearing one does that some how make his faith less than the guy standing next to him?
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 11, 2008 - 4:34PM #84
muaminva
Posts: 18
[QUOTE=Ceren;618226]And may Allah swt bless all those brothers with enough faith to keep to their required beard ;)[/QUOTE]
AsSalaamu 'alaikum,

You are correct that a beard is a stressed sunnah (highly praised and blesssed practice all should strive to follow). But, unlike proper dress (regardless of cultural trappings or styles) it is not wajib (mandatory). Even those alim who consider it wajib accept that there are some people who for various legitimate reasons cannot grow a beard.

I for one am such a person. I work with hazardous materials and must by law be able to form a tight seal on a gas mask in the case of an accidental release. Yet, even with this exemption I am currently persuing educational and training opportunities to be able to find work that would void my own exeption.

One must never stop striving to improve ones iman and practice because,  noone knows the hour of their own death and we all will be judged by the greatest and fairest of judges.
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 11, 2008 - 5:29PM #85
Ceren
Posts: 1,430
[QUOTE=muaminva;618545]AsSalaamu 'alaikum,

You are correct that a beard is a stressed sunnah (highly praised and blesssed practice all should strive to follow). But, unlike proper dress (regardless of cultural trappings or styles) it is not wajib (mandatory). Even those alim who consider it wajib accept that there are some people who for various legitimate reasons cannot grow a beard.

I for one am such a person. I work with hazardous materials and must by law be able to form a tight seal on a gas mask in the case of an accidental release. Yet, even with this exemption I am currently persuing educational and training opportunities to be able to find work that would void my own exeption.

One must never stop striving to improve ones iman and practice because,  noone knows the hour of their own death and we all will be judged by the greatest and fairest of judges.[/QUOTE]

Actually... having a beard is wajib according to the consensus of the 4 sunni schools of thought. Now.. if you know more fiqh (or know someone that knows more fiqh) than Imam Abu Hanifa and his students, Imam Shafi'i and his students, Imam Malik and his students, Imam Ibn Hanbal and his students all together then... I would actually like to meet this person!

Someone who can't grow a beard is someone who, DOES NOT SHAVE IT, and still cannot grow it. Of course that person is excused because that person is not doing anything to shorten it.  Allah swt is the provider, not your job. And given the great amounts of jobs that are in the market, I would say that many (if not most) scholars would say that giving more priority to the dunya and your salary as opposed to Allah swt is does not exempt you from growing a beard. What if I said..."hey I have to support myself and my job is being a model so I have to dress in miniskirts. But I'm studying to change my line of job so I'm excused from dressing modestly". I don't think that would fly, would it?

The prophet pbuh said in a sahih hadith to let the beards be. I thought we're supposed to "hear and obey".

No before you jump on me, I'm not picking on you  just to pick on you, but to show you that...

There's difference of opinion on things. You seem to believe, against the consensus of the 4 madhahib, that beard is not wajib but sunnah.

However, I would not conclude that it's due to your "weak Iman" that you believe this.

The same thing happens with hijab. There ARE scholars who say that hijab is not wajib. There ARE people who believe that hijab is not obligatory and thus don't wear it. Who are you to tell them that it's because their iman is weak? Do you know what's in their hearts?

And how would you automatically conclude that it's the sister's "strong iman" that's keeping the hijab in place? I have worn hijab for so many reasons that have nothing to do with my iman! And so many women wear hijab for many reasons that have so little to do with their Iman!  (the same happens with brothers sporting beards, kufis, the whole works).

So basically I find it funny that...

Even though there's consensus on the 4 schools, that there are hadith sahih were the prophet COMMANDS to grow the beards... still people seem to be quite accepting of the fact that some people say beard is a "sunnah"

However, there's no such sahih hadith commanding women to cover their hair, or Quranic verse for that matter. However... people gasp if a woman doesn't consider is wajib.

Interesting.....

All the best,
Ceren
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 11, 2008 - 6:27PM #86
muaminva
Posts: 18
AsSalaamu 'alaikum Ceren,

Thank you. I appreciate your post although i disagree with several points you made. There are multiple hadith and several ayah stipulating that a Muslimah is required to were proper clothing (including covering her hair). For a complete list please refer to any number of books or fatwas on the subject by any reputable scholar. I am aware of no tradition with in any Sunni madhhab that contadicts that opinion, although I am certain that there must be some individual scholars someplace that disagree.

The term wajib indicates that failure to do so is a sin. The most convincing work I have read on the subject indicates that the beard is highly recommended but, falls short of this classification. As far as safety being an exemption from the sunnah of growing a beard, I simply  disagree based on the evidence available and the scholars I have had access to. I am more than willing to change my view on this matter based on sound evidence and agumentation.

As far as my prayer that Allah (SWA) bless these sistetrs with strong iman so that they may observe their religious requirments, I do not comprehend how you find this offensive. I am well aware that it is only Allah (SWA) who can judge anyone for their shortcomings. That does not mean that we cannot and should not encourage piety and obedience.

Thank you again for you time and effort.

Masalaamah
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 11, 2008 - 8:21PM #87
Ceren
Posts: 1,430
[QUOTE=muaminva;618830]
Thank you. I appreciate your post although i disagree with several points you made. There are multiple hadith and several ayah stipulating that a Muslimah is required to were proper clothing (including covering her hair). For a complete list please refer to any number of books or fatwas on the subject by any reputable scholar. I am aware of no tradition with in any Sunni madhhab that contadicts that opinion, although I am certain that there must be some individual scholars someplace that disagree. [/quote]

Then please quote here those SAHIH hadith where the prophet commands women to cover their hair. Unfortunately, all the hadiths that I have read that have a command involved (from an `usuli perspective) regarding hijab were not sahih. I'd be very interested in reading those.

And yes, I agree with you that hijab is wajib according to the consensus of the 4 madhahib (like the beard ;) ) And yes, some scholars disagree (like the beard as well).

[QUOTE=muaminva;618830]
The term wajib indicates that failure to do so is a sin. The most convincing work I have read on the subject indicates that the beard is highly recommended but, falls short of this classification. As far as safety being an exemption from the sunnah of growing a beard, I simply  disagree based on the evidence available and the scholars I have had access to. I am more than willing to change my view on this matter based on sound evidence and agumentation. [/quote]

Have you ever read any of the fiqh books of any of the 4 madhahib? Because it is indeed there. Since you don't read arabic, you could start with the english version of "Reliance of the Traveller", which is a great fiqh book to begin with (btw, I actually neglected to mention that in the shafi`i school there are 2 positions, one being that it's makrooh to shave). I also think that Kitabul Athaaris translated in english, for hanafi fiqh.

As for hadiths, there are many, but I'll just give you one on sahih Muslim:
Ibn Umar said: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Trim closely the moustache, and let the beard grow.


[QUOTE=muaminva;618830]
As far as my prayer that Allah (SWA) bless these sistetrs with strong iman so that they may observe their religious requirements, I do not comprehend how you find this offensive. I am well aware that it is only Allah (SWA) who can judge anyone for their shortcomings. That does not mean that we cannot and should not encourage piety and obedience.
[/QUOTE]

I think that brother you can't comprehend why I'm offended because you're not a sister :(  (well, alhamdulillah you're a brother).
Only if you're a sister you would understand how tiring, and OBJECTIFYING this obsession with hijab is.  I makes you feel like all you are is an object, an empty vase, a piece of meat that needs covering. It seems that for women, 100% of our obedience and of our iman goes through the hijab. Women in hijab? Good Muslim. Women with no hijab? Bad Muslim.  How shallow do we need to be as a community to judge a person by her external appearance.

The "bum" is as much awrah for men as it is for women. However I go to the mosque and I see  98% of the brothers wearing jeans (some following the "low rise" fashion) or slacks, or khakis and their shirts tuck inside, or short t-shirts. So I have to endure the unfortunate sight of their bum  and underwear while their are in rokoo` and if I'm really unfortunate I get to see their "cracks". If a woman went dressed like that... hell would break lose!!! Then all the khutbas about women's dress... how about those about men's dress????
Why don't I hear men going on and on about their modesty. After all, modesty is required for both men and women, and I can tell you that at my mosque the women do much better than men.
How many times have you heard "Masha' Allah brother you finally have decided to wear long shirts to cover your bum (awrah)!!"?? Me?  ZERO times. However, I have heard so many "Masha' Allah you're covered, blah blah".
We women are COMPLEX beings, with dreams, spiritual struggles, hearts that beat and need purifying, etc, etc. We're not just "women who need covering" . So why is everyone so into neglecting our many needs. Do you know how many of my hijab-wearing friends miss fajr?? Do you know how many pray as robots, with no presence of heart in prayer?  LOTS and LOTS and LOTS. Do you know how many miss prayers here and there? LOTS and LOTS and LOTS. Do you know how many of my hijabi acquaintances have gone on hajj?? ZERO, even though they have money to buy fancy cars, nice clothes, etc, etc. Do you know how many hijabis do not take zakat seriously and juggle to give as little as possible? LOTS! And these are the pillars of Islam!!!
Do you know how many hijabi women I've met that are mean, merciless, judgmental, angry-looking, and that have scared converts away? LOTS.

So if instead of being so shallow and keep hammering about hijab like it's the be-all end-all of a Muslimah's worship we would focus on other even more important things, we would be better as a Muslim community. If we would focus on establishing the pillars not only in our bodies but with our hearts, things would be better. And once our hearts are aligned to Allah swt, then all the other questions would be automatically answered, because we would know automatically what is right and what is wrong.

Sorry for my ranting but I'm just so tired of it.

All the best,
Ceren
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 11, 2008 - 10:33PM #88
muaminva
Posts: 18
AsSalaamu 'alaikum Ceren,

Thank you for the recommendations on the books. I will endeaver to find these titles and may Allah (SWA) bless you for your efforts.

I typically refer to Bukhari and Muslim and occasionally the compilation Bulugh Al-Maram regarding hadith since I have them at home. Tafsir Ibn Kathir for the same reason. For fiqh I usually reference Fiqh Us-Sunnah and Arkan al-Islam wal-Iman and follow up with the scholars I may have access to at the time to ensure that I understand some of the more difficult issues of evidence.

As far as any perceived disrespect or obsessiveness you detected in my postings on this subject I apologize profusely. I am well aware of this double standard and gave a khutbah about it 3 Fridays ago at the beginning of summer.

Proper dress and modesty is a 2-way street. Men and women have a responsibility to aid each other by dressing and behaving modestly as well as lowering the gaze to avoid temptation and show respect. All people have a right to be treated with a certain basic level of respect regardless of their dress and conduct. But we also have a responsibility to set a good example for others and encourage them to grow in faith, knowledge and actions.

Again, my apologies if my tone or manner of writing caused offense or seemed in any way belittling.

Masalaamah
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 11, 2008 - 11:35PM #89
Ceren
Posts: 1,430
[QUOTE=muaminva;619265]AsSalaamu 'alaikum Ceren,

Again, my apologies if my tone or manner of writing caused offense or seemed in any way belittling.

Masalaamah[/QUOTE]

Wa'alaykum salam brother.

No apologies needed. It was you who was patient enough to read through all my ranting and answer me nicely. Thank you very much. May Allah swt reward you for your adab.

All the best,
Ceren
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 12, 2008 - 3:27PM #90
Miraj
Posts: 5,020

muaminva wrote:

AsSalaamu 'alaikum Ceren,

Thank you. I appreciate your post although i disagree with several points you made. There are multiple hadith and several ayah stipulating that a Muslimah is required to were proper clothing (including covering her hair). For a complete list please refer to any number of books or fatwas on the subject by any reputable scholar. I am aware of no tradition with in any Sunni madhhab that contadicts that opinion, although I am certain that there must be some individual scholars someplace that disagree.

. . .

Masalaamah



There is no dress code in the Quran.  There is no command there to cover the hair.  There is not one reference using the word "hijab" that addresses clothing.  The Quran does say:

7.26 O ye Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness,- that is the best. Such are among the Signs of God, that they may receive admonition!

Please post an ayat that refers to hijab as proper dress, and commands covering the hair.  From that, all other demands regarding a particular mode of dress will flow.

Thank you in advance.

Salaam

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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