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Flag GraceSA November 22, 2007 3:00 PM EST
Thank you Miraj, Lee Ann and Ceren!
Salaam,
Grace
Flag Miraj November 22, 2007 4:56 PM EST

The-middle-way wrote:

Sister witness, Miraj's above opinion contradicts that of the consensus of the Scholars, as the following fatwa shows:.



I cannot be easily dismissed as a "non-specialist", so I'm delighted to respond to this.

A fatwa is a legal OPINION, not law. My response that there is no reference to hijab as clothing in the Quran is not a contradiction of Arabic lexicon. I am a naive speaker of Arabic, and, as a scholar of Islam myself, I have a strong understanding not only of the theology of hijab, but the history of its development as an "obligation to God" in the minds of scholars

Also, the word "khimar" did not mean headcovering in the Prophet's day, Sheikh Keller admits as much, stating that khimar is familar "in our day" as hijab. However, the fact remains that nowhere in the Quran does hijab refer to a means of costuming. That it does "in our day" is the result of fatwas, not sharia. Scholars connoted the word "khimar" to mean headcovering approximately 200 years after the death of the Prophet. Historically, it was not headcovering in the early ummah.

Not to mention that Quran 24:31 never directs women to cover their hair. It does say use your khimar to cover your breasts, but I don't see many hijabis taking that command literally. Muslim scholars may believe there is no ambiguity about 24:31, the meaning and historical context of the words "khimar' and "hijab" and the obligation from God for Muslimas to cover their heads, but there has been debate and dissent over the issue for centuries.

"Consensus", another word that is bandied about in a self-serving manner in order to stifle debate, is undefined - it is all too common for dissenting scholars to be dismissed as "illegitimate" - thus creating a consensus of convenience. A consensus of Sunni scholars, of Shia scholars; a consensus in the village, the nation, of the Arab world alone. There is a consensus for everyone who wants one. That doesn't make the fatwas Islamic.

What I want to see is the ayah/ayat that define hiajb as clothing, not some other Muslims saying that "this is what God really means". In the historical context, women were not compelled to conceal their hair, nor was khimar the equivalent of hijab. Those who claim this is so are not going back to the Prophet's day, but to dictionaries. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't get my Islam from the dictionary. If you can't speak Arabic and haven't studied the scripture in an historical context, perhaps that's the best you can do.

Salaam

Flag Miraj November 22, 2007 4:59 PM EST

GraceSA wrote:

Thank you Miraj, Lee Ann and Ceren!
Salaam,
Grace



You're welcome, hon!  :)

Flag Miraj November 22, 2007 5:11 PM EST
You got to be a specialist or your just a sad confused soul that doesnt know her "bosom" from her head.

A very astute observation, Lee Ann!  Very good for a non-specialist.
Flag GraceSA November 23, 2007 4:55 AM EST
Lee Ann- I dunno, you're kinda out on a limb there....head???  bosum??? can you cite sources for either???

((There is no other lexical sense in which the word khimar may be construed. ))

I think using the word "lexical" is supposed to scare us into acknowledging the superior intellect of this point of view.  I laugh every time I read that line- because sadly, it's been posted several times already.

Miraj, thanks for bringing up the issue of "consensus".  That has got to me one of the most abused concepts going right now.  And it usually has to do with putting women in their place.

Salaam,
Grace
Flag QureshiAbbasAli December 7, 2007 12:44 AM EST
In the Name of the High
assalam o alaykum

the whole notion of consencus, i.e Ijma, was borne out of a political necessity first and fore-most. in the absence of a stable political entity in Islam, in post 4 Caliphs, it was mandated as such to the myriad of the different schools that had emanated.

regards, ali.q
Flag arabianwitch December 12, 2007 6:34 PM EST
Salaam all :)

Nice to see that the hijab issue is still an issue, not that I'm surprised.

Hi there Sis Miraj.

And of course, I'm still in the don't wear it, never wore it, won't wear it, won't have my daughter wear it group!

Re-salaams,

Aisha
Flag BDboy December 30, 2007 11:52 PM EST
Dear sister,

I like to support what sister Ceren said here. Take it easy and take time to learn more about Islam. Start by practicing it privately.

Once you have some knowledge of Islam and start wearing hijab after than, maybe you will be able to remove misunderstanding about Islam from good Christian people. In the noble Qur'an God said Christians are "Nearest to the Muslims" [ Ref: The noble Qur'an 5:82 ] and there is a whole chapter devoted to our spiritual mother Mary [ Chapter 19].

The word "Jesus" was mentioned in the Qur'an 25 times and "Mary" was mentioned 32 time [ 19 times in the Bible].

We pray to the same God of Jesus, Moses, Abraham and Muhammad [ Peace  be unto them all] .

"And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone."

[ The holy Bible Mark 10:18 ]


For more information, please visit the following websites.

http://www.welcome-back.org/

http://www.harunyahya.com/





Feel free to ask as many questions about Islam you want. Then start wearing hijab when the time is right.

I wish you all the best.

May peace and blessings be unto all.
Flag Miraj December 31, 2007 1:54 AM EST
Or, maybe not wear hijab ever.
Flag hajali December 31, 2007 5:39 AM EST
[QUOTE=sazaj36;87409]There is no other lexical sense in which the word khimar may be construed. The wording of the command, however, “and let them drape their headcoverings over their bosoms,” sometimes confuses nonspecialists in the sciences of the Qur’an, and in truth, interpreting the Qur’an does sometimes require in-depth knowledge of the historical circumstances in which the various verses were revealed. .....

I like the use of the phrase "non specialist"...kind of makes the phrases God uses such as "easy and not a burden" when reading and understanding the Quran lose all its meaning. You got to be a specialist or your just a sad confused soul that doesnt know her "bosom" from her head.[/QUOTE]

Pro- interpretations

We can not take one word of the verse and we stick to it without other considerations. , no not like that,   here is some remarks;
We must follow such procedures,  Let have:

- the Surah/verse to three diff; translations.
-Topic/s to the Surah
-Verse to its topic
-Word to the verse
-And then word to the word.
-And then word to the grammar. and meanings
-All above to the prophet's (SAW) interpretation
-All above to the scholar's views.


Let try these with this verse;

33:59 O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Topic/s to the Surah
We can find this with the first verse;
33:1 PROPHET! Remain conscious of God, and defer not to the deniers of the truth and the hypo¬crites: for God is truly all-knowing, wise.

 
  [Muhammad: hearken not to the hypocrites and not to the  Unbelievers]
This verse is a subject to the Surah (chapter) it is the TOPIC of the whole Surah .

Then , Verse to its topic
Believers should not hearken to the unbelievers. Mean should not wear the way what they wear, should be with difference. (Hijab part)


And then word to the word.
Then the reason of casting the outer garment over own person is but to:
Not to be known to the public.  Abroad of the house.  Then not to be molested  (ill-treated,)  avoiding any harm.

So not to be know of their person, not to be know of their charms and not to be know as they careless.
This "hiding" is but to the benefit of the women even during one of the highest spiritual human meetings when be set to ask the prophet's (SAW)women (wives and daughters) P.B.U them all STILL Hiding is requested. Here is ;   


33.53    …..whenever you ask them for anything that you need, ask them from behind a screen: [69] this will but deepen the purity of your hearts and theirs……

Also this verse is giving more explanation why "hiding" WHICH IS :  will be deepening the purity.


SO, MUSLIMAT WOMEN, WHAT DO YOU THINK THE WAY COULD BE OF THE LOOK OF YOUR APPROCHING TO THE PUPLIC?   IN ORDER LOOK TO MEET THE REQUESTS   AND ITS BENEFICIERS,

   AND PLEASE LISTEN TO THE ENDING OF THIS VERSE,  (( ALLAH IS OFT- FORGIVING, MOST MERCIFUL, ))
THIS FORGINESS AND MERCY ARE FORWARDED TO THE PART (CHARM) WHICH CANNOT BE HIDDEN. SUCH LIKE NICE VOICE, NICE TALL, NICE SHAPE …ETC… TO MEET THE Islamic PRINCIPLE

((2:286 God does not burden any human being with more than he is well able to bear)).

Beyond these   bearers' ability, Allah do not burden any .

So, WOMAN do hide what ever can be hided to the public and do not panic to the part you with well able can not hide.

Each of each OF you is a valuable part of issue; lawful channels are most requested against "EARNING"  these values,  nothing OF YOU is cheap here. NOT A SINGLE THING.

LIVE HAPPY MRS BIG VALUE , GOD BLESS YOU ALL.



salam
Flag hajali December 31, 2007 5:56 AM EST
asslamu alaykum

YOU CAN DO HIJAB STEP BY STEP,  you start with long leaves,  no tied clothes,  and so on.. Soon you will be with your lawful Hijab,

Allah bless you

Salam
Flag Atsila December 31, 2007 3:48 PM EST
[QUOTE=hajali;175830]asslamu alaykum

YOU CAN DO HIJAB STEP BY STEP,  you start with long leaves,  no tied clothes,  and so on.. Soon you will be with your lawful Hijab,

Allah bless you

Salam[/QUOTE]


I do not see any argument that leads me to believe that hair should be covered/concealed.  However, if a new muslim chooses to do so, that is up to her.  The problem is that hijab is not what a new muslimah should be bombarded with.  Why are people so intent on focusing on hijab and trying to get new muslimahs in it so quickly?  Shouldn't a new muslimah learn about wudo, prayer, fasting, charity, and for God's sake, say the shahada before having a hijab shoved down her throat?  When did the hijab become the only thing that a muslim woman has to do?  Why did it become the most important step in becoming muslim?  And to think, it's not even required!

peace.
Atsila
Flag Miraj December 31, 2007 6:06 PM EST
If I was a Martian reading this board, I would be learning that the most important lessons a new Muslima should learn is to conceal her hair, marry quickly, and enjoy sharing her husband's penis with his right to other women he calls wives.

Salaam
Flag hajali January 2, 2008 11:43 AM EST
Atsila

the topic is :  My hijab, or my job?

and not my Islam or may job?

do not your read the different!!!!!???????

salam
Flag hajali January 2, 2008 12:43 PM EST
Miraj ;


For my life I did not hear such bad  words! Really I pay a compassion against such Muslimat women of believenet, do not you feel shy!!??  Is it that easy for you to say it here?

My sister it was enough for you to say it like : sharing her husband's bed , so from my side I can say SHAME ON YOU.  You should pay respect to the thread. Do I need to tell;  To be shy is a part of faith do I ?. 

I see you have an objection to have more than wife in one time,! Let me remind you that this is Allah's rules and is to fit to all people of the world, and is efficient all the time. And it is not Must and it is an ruled Optional and is Sunnah Manner. And is what we have men and women to thank Allah for such bounty.

Get your mind out of limit for wide judgement and you know little that for fact.

Allah bless you and give your heart more faith for more submissions of  satisfactions.

AMEEN

salam
Flag Atsila January 2, 2008 12:47 PM EST
I wasn't responding to the first post, that should be obvious.  I was referring to the so-called advice people were giving out.  The first post certainly isn't about islam vs her job, because she wasn't even muslim.
Flag Miraj January 6, 2008 6:03 PM EST

hajali wrote:

Atsila

the topic is : My hijab, or my job?

and not my Islam or may job?

do not your read the different!!!!!???????

salam



This is the ISLAM board.  Islam is not off topic for this forum.

Flag Miraj January 6, 2008 6:14 PM EST

hajali wrote:

Miraj ;


For my life I did not hear such bad words! Really I pay a compassion against such Muslimat women of believenet, do not you feel shy!!?? Is it that easy for you to say it here?

My sister it was enough for you to say it like : sharing her husband's bed , so from my side I can say SHAME ON YOU. You should pay respect to the thread. Do I need to tell; To be shy is a part of faith do I ?.

I see you have an objection to have more than wife in one time,! Let me remind you that this is Allah's rules and is to fit to all people of the world, and is efficient all the time. And it is not Must and it is an ruled Optional and is Sunnah Manner. And is what we have men and women to thank Allah for such bounty.

Get your mind out of limit for wide judgement and you know little that for fact.

Allah bless you and give your heart more faith for more submissions of satisfactions.

AMEEN

salam



Nothing about hijab in that post.

When there are Muslims, including yourself, who can come to his board and shamelessly claim that God Almighty gave Muslim men the unconditional right to treat Muslim women as collectibles, then, imo, the limits have been crossed already.

When the mandated respect for women and their right to be equals before God is declared to be trumped by Muslims who argue that God wants women to share a single penis, then the limits have already been crossed.

When we're told that Muslim men aren't required to control their sexual urges and live as the Prophet did, then the limits have already been crossed.

Since Muslim men have no haya when it comes to viewing women as sex toys, then, haya is also optional for women.

Shame on you! Settle for getting your guidance from God and leave the nafs of men's loins out of your mind.

Salaam

Flag Eileen28 January 10, 2008 1:42 PM EST
like the use of the phrase "non specialist"...kind of makes the phrases God uses such as "easy and not a burden" when reading and understanding the Quran lose all its meaning. You got to be a specialist or your just a sad confused soul that doesnt know her "bosom" from her head.

i like that.. since we know that most men are much more attracted to a womans hair than boobs lol
Flag Idbc January 24, 2008 6:15 PM EST
It seems to me that for the most part, it is Muslim MENwho want the women to wear a hijab. 
Women are urged to "guard their modesty" and  "adornments".  And who are the "guarding their modesty and adornments"  from ? MEN

Veiling, aka hijab was practiced a loooong time before Muhammad, the Quran and Islam appeared on the world stage.  Jews, Christians and PAGANS practiced veiling all over the planet, from the middle east to china.

There was nothing new and unique about it.  It is a religous and cultral affectation.
Flag Yusif January 24, 2008 11:48 PM EST
Islam is for everyone in every time everywhere it's international religon and that tell us we would get much of exceptional circumstances in where we live or with who we live and the community we among and you need to live your life as you want as you choose, and as much as the circumstances can't help you or the situation would be hard for you then you might need to match with it , Islam is religon of easiness not hardness [deen yuser] do what fit with your situation and Insha Aallah He will relieve this circumstances

and at the end God knows what in your heart and propher (pbuh) said follow your heart even if all gaves you fatwa
Flag Fondation January 25, 2008 11:25 AM EST
Reading about the various discussions and opinions one has to acknowledge that each individual using the Quranic versus relating to hijab is correct. However, one has to trascend beyond the physicality in order to understand the pardah of the heart.  Most people would strongly differ on this point maintaining that in order to reach the spiritual level, one needs to firstly implement the physical aspect. The mere fact that we reflect about the wonders of Allah, is that not spirituality on its own?
To the person who would like to embrace Islam, it is quite sad to hear how it is we as Muslims have so many different opinions when there is only one God and one Rasool (S.A.W). Instead of confusing and detering her from the path of Islam, there is always a deeper meaning behind everything. What led you to want to go into hijab? Surely it has nothing to do with God or Islam. For if you truly searching for the Ultimate Truth and only Reality, you would not be disputing about trivial matters such as co-workers and whether they are staunch Christians or not. God says He was a hidden treasure and wanted to be known therefore He created. We are created to know and thus through everything in life we are made to discover who God truly is.
Our greatest downfall is that we are so absorbed in looking at every other persons faults and weaknesses, we fail to acknowledge they are merely a reflection unto us in order that we may rectify it within ourselves. Through this we will realize there is much retrospection and no introspection.
So I pose the question to all who had commented in regard to this topic
What has each one of you learnt about yourselves through the person who would love to be in hijab?
Flag Fondation January 25, 2008 11:25 AM EST
Reading about the various discussions and opinions one has to acknowledge that each individual using the Quranic versus relating to hijab is correct. However, one has to trascend beyond the physicality in order to understand the pardah of the heart.  Most people would strongly differ on this point maintaining that in order to reach the spiritual level, one needs to firstly implement the physical aspect. The mere fact that we reflect about the wonders of Allah, is that not spirituality on its own?
To the person who would like to embrace Islam, it is quite sad to hear how it is we as Muslims have so many different opinions when there is only one God and one Rasool (S.A.W). Instead of confusing and detering her from the path of Islam, there is always a deeper meaning behind everything. What led you to want to go into hijab? Surely it has nothing to do with God or Islam. For if you truly searching for the Ultimate Truth and only Reality, you would not be disputing about trivial matters such as co-workers and whether they are staunch Christians or not. God says He was a hidden treasure and wanted to be known therefore He created. We are created to know and thus through everything in life we are made to discover who God truly is.
Our greatest downfall is that we are so absorbed in looking at every other persons faults and weaknesses, we fail to acknowledge they are merely a reflection unto us in order that we may rectify it within ourselves. Through this we will realize there is much retrospection and no introspection.
So I pose the question to all who had commented in regard to this topic
What has each one of you learnt about yourselves through the person who would love to be in hijab?
Flag Sanaa February 20, 2008 3:54 PM EST
As Salaamu Alaikum,

I am a 25 year old Muslimah, I am not currently wearing my hijab and I could say that there are reasons why but I know that they would all be considered excuses so I rather not waste the text I know that Allah comes first in all affairs but for whatever reason I am having a hard time wearing it constantly, I wear it 3 months, sometimes six sometimes a year and then I stop I really dont have a valid reason why I just feel that I sometimes fall victim to the "dress and Style" fthe non believers.  I really want to be pleasing to my lord and have taqwa at all times I know Allah test' everyone and overing will not be easy all the time but I t seems to be harder for me than others and all my friends and immediate family are musli so it isn't like I dont have anyone around me to influence me I'm just confused anyone have any suggestion.......

My second topic is that i have have Twins daughters who are five years old they are now at an age where they know and see things and they have "mature" understanding of things at 5 they often ask me if they could wear a khimar and I always tell them yes but I want them to know the true meaning of wearing it.  Also, their father isn't muslim and he feels that I should wait until they become of age to let them decide their religion but at the same time I feel I should instill islamic value in them he and I are no longer together but we have a close rlationship is it fair for me to not respect his opinions because he is a good father and provider and he his a part of their life
Flag sazaj36 February 21, 2008 12:36 AM EST
Just curious.....what does "coming of age" and "instill Islamic values" have to do with each other? I mean you can be teaching your daughters Islamic values from the moment they are aware of right and wrong...which is natural for every parent that wants to raise good moral children. Islamic values include being just, being honest, treat others well, treat your parents well etc...so no need to wait till they come of age...that stuff should be a given...no matter what your religion. It seems you are equating Islamic values with the khimar...which is fine if you want to base all your taqwa on a piece of cloth...but Islamic values are so much more than that.

Im not being critical..just giving my opinion. Good luck.
Flag Yodalady_AA February 21, 2008 10:03 AM EST
Sazaj

There are time ONE should cover one's hair...and I am there.  Incredibly bad hair cut growing out and I look like an OCedar mop....LOL!  Off to the hairdressers tonight...LOL!

YL
Flag MSTCOMESWITHWSDM February 21, 2008 12:48 PM EST
[QUOTE=witness22;23599]Asalamu alaikum. I hope I'm posting this in the right place.

I am seriously considering taking Islam as my faith. I've only been studying it for a few weeks, and there's many questions I still need answered first, but no other religion has captured both my heart and mind the way Islam has. I pray at the correct times whenever I can, or as close to it as I can get, and even if I don't convert I find myself loving the hijab and Islamic ways of dressing. But I've discovered that I work in an environment with deep-running prejudices and fears.

I told my boss that I wanted to wear the hijab to work one day to see how customers would react (and secretly to see how my coworkers would react). My conservative Christian boss was shocked at first (no one has any idea that I'm considering converting) and almost said no, but eventually agreed, thinking I was doing it as a social experiment since I want to go into theology. But he said I could only do it on a day when the store owner wasn't there, because if the owner saw me in the hijab he would "blow up". When I asked why, my boss told me that it was because the owner was a "good, faithful Christian" - a very complimentary, twisted synonym for "intolerant" in this situation. In the process of talking about me doing this "experiment" my boss also told me that there was actually a rule against it. Well, actually the rule is against wearing hats, but the rule says "no headgear", and now that I've brought this up "headgear" is now being interpreted as including hijab - and it was made very clear to me that this is the one and only time I will be allowed to do this "experiment", and that if it starts causing any problems with customers, I am to immediately take it off (although I think my coworkers are already reacting much more than the customers will).

So I'm faced with a dilemma: I want to wear the hijab! Even if I don't convert, I think I want to wear it. But now I could get fired, not on the basis of my religion, but because I'm wearing a headscarf. Do they really think that if I put a piece of fabric on my head it makes me a different person than I was yesterday? No! It is only an external expression seen today of what was already in my heart yesterday, and many days before that. But it has been made clear to me that these men I work with are extremely conservative Christians who want the entire world to be a reflection of themselves and their values, and I'm already forced to sit all day and listen to them vent their prejudices, and there is no room in their hearts for tolerance.

Part of me wants to start wearing the hijab just to get myself fired so I don't have to listen to their hate anymore. I took this job out of desperation, and I don't like the work or the people I work with. But to get the job I had to give my word that I would work there for a year. It's only been three months. As wrong as all this is, I'm not sure it would make it right to break my promise. It takes a month to train someone for this job, sometimes longer, so if I quit during the middle of the busy season I would be leaving them in a lurch. Part of me has no problem with that - if they don't want to work with a muslim, I don't want to work with them (really I'm rather afraid to), and I'd rather quit than have them looking for ways to fire me. I know that if I did convert they wouldn't allow me to pray at work - I had to fight with them and almost pass out just to get a lunch break! But on the other hand, the owner's son has cancer, and I have heard him crying to God to know why his son has to suffer, and I don't want to add to his burdens by breaking my word and putting him in a hard place.

So, the dilemma is: my hijab, or my job? Please give me advice!

Peace and blessings upon you all.[/QUOTE]

As an American it is your constitutional right to practice your beliefs. If you feel led to wear it so be it. New testament backs you up. Gods word has never changed from the Torrah, to the N.T.  to the Qur'ran. Modest appearal and the covering of the head is something we are instructed to practice. Yes even in the Bible it teaches that. Its just that We christians have fallen so far from what Gods word teaches and when we read those particular scriptures for some reason us students and layman either dont bother to question why its not being practiced or outr teachers have all their IDEAS  as to why we dont have to but none are Biblical just mans version and distortian of the truth. Ware your hajib if you feel Gods word telling you to do so. Every ones convictions are diffrent. If it makes you feel like you are doing the right thing for God and it is in His word to do so who cares what man says. See the other post on this Islam site in RE: to the same US MUSLIM gives a great manner of Versus from the holy Qur'ran as well if its Gods word you are most coincerned about.
Flag faiz4you February 27, 2008 11:14 PM EST
Hypocrit Camp of Muslim Women!

is there some defect with your faith?

Miraj

you call yourself a learned scholar on Islamic thoelogy! but how is it that you take one part of the ayats from the Quran and ignore another part of the Ayats from the Quran? IF you read the ayat below with three different translators, what does it say?

024.031
YUSUFALI: And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof;

Your Breast and your vagina DO NOT APPEAR Normally

that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex;

Do you walk naked infront of your Father, Sons, Father in Law and your Brothers? if not then what kind of modesty differentiates between your close relatives and the outside world? certainly your not suggesting it is OK to be naked infront of your father in LAW? 

and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.

What does it mean strike your feet? and to reveal what ornaments?

PICKTHAL: And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.
SHAKIR: And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known; and turn to Allah all of you, O believers! so that you may be successful.
Flag newmuslimlady February 29, 2008 8:11 PM EST
The word "adornment "is used in the much quoted scripture and is the key to understanding that a Muslim woman should wear the Hijab.  Adornment means Beauty and we Muslim women are suppose to cover it.  A woman's HAIR is Very Beautiful to Men, they love our hair and are very attracted to it.  Not just Muslim men but all men.   So it is a part of us that should be covered. 

Also wearing HIjab is good for Dawah.   Muslims are suppose to give Dawah, it is our responsibility to tell others about Islam.  Just the other day I was in J.C. Penney and a young lady who worked there came to me and asked if I was Muslim and had questions.  She was interested also in coming to a Masjid to find out more about our faith.  I gave her my phone number and she gave me hers.  Other people have asked me questions also.  I'm proud to be a Muslim and proud to be a Hijabi...
Flag Atsila February 29, 2008 11:02 PM EST
[QUOTE=newmuslimlady;323489]The word "adornment "is used in the much quoted scripture and is the key to understanding that a Muslim woman should wear the Hijab.  Adornment means Beauty and we Muslim women are suppose to cover it.  A woman's HAIR is Very Beautiful to Men, they love our hair and are very attracted to it.  Not just Muslim men but all men.   So it is a part of us that should be covered. 

Also wearing HIjab is good for Dawah.   Muslims are suppose to give Dawah, it is our responsibility to tell others about Islam.  Just the other day I was in J.C. Penney and a young lady who worked there came to me and asked if I was Muslim and had questions.  She was interested also in coming to a Masjid to find out more about our faith.  I gave her my phone number and she gave me hers.  Other people have asked me questions also.  I'm proud to be a Muslim and proud to be a Hijabi...[/QUOTE]

Adornment is the key word and can be interpreted many ways.  Hair is not an adornment, in my opinion.  It's just...hair.  Some may think it is beauty, others do not.  How about someones hands or their eyes?  I have gotten many more compliments on my eyes (for some reason) than I ever have about my hair.  Should I cover them up?  What is clear is that God commanded women to cover their breasts.  I can do that with a shirt.  Even not wearing hijab I have people asking me questions, so it's not the only way to start a conversation.  If so, then men would have to wear it too.  Also, I take the responsibility of telling others about islam differently.  I do not feel I need to go around like Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses and spread the word.  We do not have to do that.  However, when people respectfully ask, I try to answer questions, even though it gets old after awhile.  Just because someone doesn't wear hijab doesn't mean they aren't proud to be muslim (I'm not sure if you were implying that, but just clarifying).  Also, in reference to the other post, please be careful who you call hypocrite, as you are not God.

wassalam,
Atsila
Flag newmuslimlady March 1, 2008 11:35 AM EST
[QUOTE=Atsila;323835]Adornment is the key word and can be interpreted many ways.  Hair is not an adornment, in my opinion.  It's just...hair.  Some may think it is beauty, others do not.  How about someones hands or their eyes?  I have gotten many more compliments on my eyes (for some reason) than I ever have about my hair.  Should I cover them up?  What is clear is that God commanded women to cover their breasts.  I can do that with a shirt.  Even not wearing hijab I have people asking me questions, so it's not the only way to start a conversation.  If so, then men would have to wear it too.  Also, I take the responsibility of telling others about islam differently.  I do not feel I need to go around like Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses and spread the word.  We do not have to do that.  However, when people respectfully ask, I try to answer questions, even though it gets old after awhile.  Just because someone doesn't wear hijab doesn't mean they aren't proud to be muslim (I'm not sure if you were implying that, but just clarifying).  Also, in reference to the other post, please be careful who you call hypocrite, as you are not God.

wassalam,
Atsila[/QUOTE]

My post was not directed to you Atsia.  Your opinion is yours and my opinion is mine.  I was only stating why I believe the scripture says you should cover your hair.  Even most people do realize that a woman's "hair" is indeed beautiful to men, even non-muslim women see this to be true. 

And I'd like to know who I called a hypocrite?  I'm not going to judge anyone as I do know that Allah(swt) is the only one who has the right to judge mankind.
Flag Atsila March 1, 2008 11:54 AM EST
[QUOTE=newmuslimlady;324769]My post was not directed to you Atsia.  Your opinion is yours and my opinion is mine.  I was only stating why I believe the scripture says you should cover your hair.  Even most people do realize that a woman's "hair" is indeed beautiful to men, even non-muslim women see this to be true. 

And I'd like to know who I called a hypocrite?  I'm not going to judge anyone as I do know that Allah(swt) is the only one who has the right to judge mankind.[/QUOTE]

I know your post wasn't directed at me; I was just stating my opinion.  I guess I am not most people and never have been.  When I was a non-muslim, I never saw or heard about people being so obsessed with hair.  It just wans't a big deal.  Or maybe I just wasn't ever worried about mine and never gave it a second thought.  But I still wonder if the definition of adornment is something that is considered beautiful, then why not cover high cheekbones or your eyes, hands, etc.  Thank God I have ugly feet.  I consider an adornment to be something that is added and hair isn't added, it's already there.  I think that some of these hijabs that people wear could be considered an adornment, since they are so fancy.  I mean a pashmina hijab?  And this is modesty?  Anyway, I wasn't speaking about you with that hypocrite comment, I was pointing out the post that was before yours.  Sorry if that wasn't clear.

wassalam,
Atsila
Flag newmuslimlady March 1, 2008 12:10 PM EST
[QUOTE=Atsila;324812]I know your post wasn't directed at me; I was just stating my opinion.  I guess I am not most people and never have been.  When I was a non-muslim, I never saw or heard about people being so obsessed with hair.  It just wans't a big deal.  Or maybe I just wasn't ever worried about mine and never gave it a second thought.  But I still wonder if the definition of adornment is something that is considered beautiful, then why not cover high cheekbones or your eyes, hands, etc.  Thank God I have ugly feet.  I consider an adornment to be something that is added and hair isn't added, it's already there.  I think that some of these hijabs that people wear could be considered an adornment, since they are so fancy.  I mean a pashmina hijab?  And this is modesty?  Anyway, I wasn't speaking about you with that hypocrite comment, I was pointing out the post that was before yours.  Sorry if that wasn't clear.

wassalam,
Atsila[/QUOTE]

Allah(swt) knows we can't cover our eyes or else we couldn't see.  Some Muslim women do wear niqab so their cheeks, lips, etc. don't show.   I don't wear a niqab though but I don't wear make up either to make my face look better and attract more attention.  *You're right I feel about the women who wear Hijab and they are so fancy and brightly colored.  They are adornment which does attract more attention than if they weren't wearing a hijab at all.  Doesn't make much sense when you think about it and I've wondered why they haven't figured that out.
Flag Atsila March 1, 2008 12:54 PM EST
[QUOTE=newmuslimlady;324854]Allah(swt) knows we can't cover our eyes or else we couldn't see.  Some Muslim women do wear niqab so their cheeks, lips, etc. don't show.   I don't wear a niqab though but I don't wear make up either to make my face look better and attract more attention.  *You're right I feel about the women who wear Hijab and they are so fancy and brightly colored.  They are adornment which does attract more attention than if they weren't wearing a hijab at all.  Doesn't make much sense when you think about it and I've wondered why they haven't figured that out.[/QUOTE]

There are some women who do veil their faces, eyes and all, however I do not believe that this was asked by God of the general population of women.  My point being that if we had to cover any potentially beautiful object on our bodies, we would be walking around in tents.  I don't believe that God calls for that.  It's one reason I have a different take on the definition of adornment.  I do wear makeup and do not feel like I am being immodest or adorning myself.  I suppose each person needs to decide for themselves what is best. 


wassalam,
Atsila
Flag faiz4you March 2, 2008 8:55 AM EST
When ever a hypocrit has been exposed his/her defence is either God or a twisted view of the quran.

Because they know in this lifetime God will not speak and neither the quran will defend itself against thier ranting.

Those Woman that Call thenselves muslims and then do not believe in the Hijab ayats mentioned in the Quran are nothing more then hypocrits,

The Quran is so Clear and precise on this issue that you cannot refute the truth, MUSLIM woman are ORDERED to wear HIJAB!!! and yet no hypocrit muslim has been able to refute this claim from the quran.

Quran says clearly you can be yourself infront of your close relatives such as your father, brothers, children, uncles, father in law. however other then this close net of men you are ordered to wear the HIJAB.

if you think this is not right then prove it from the Quran!!! otherwise i can say confidently you are a hypocrit.

to be a muslim woman you have to believe in what god has said and has ordered you to do.
Flag newmuslimlady March 2, 2008 2:05 PM EST
[QUOTE=faiz4you;326639]When ever a hypocrit has been exposed his/her defence is either God or a twisted view of the quran.

Because they know in this lifetime God will not speak and neither the quran will defend itself against thier ranting.

Those Woman that Call thenselves muslims and then do not believe in the Hijab ayats mentioned in the Quran are nothing more then hypocrits,

The Quran is so Clear and precise on this issue that you cannot refute the truth, MUSLIM woman are ORDERED to wear HIJAB!!! and yet no hypocrit muslim has been able to refute this claim from the quran.

Quran says clearly you can be yourself infront of your close relatives such as your father, brothers, children, uncles, father in law. however other then this close net of men you are ordered to wear the HIJAB.

if you think this is not right then prove it from the Quran!!! otherwise i can say confidently you are a hypocrit.

to be a muslim woman you have to believe in what god has said and has ordered you to do.[/QUOTE]


I think we can reframe from calling another Muslim a hypocrate Faiz.  No Muslim is perfect.  Just because this sister doesn't see something the way you or I do doesn't make her any less a Muslim.  Maybe one day she will change her mind about this matter or maybe she won't.  But only God is the ultimate judge and we shouldn't be judging each other, only giving each other advice in a friendly way.  :)
Flag AshtarothKarnim March 2, 2008 3:58 PM EST
ilu shelem

do you have secret marks to denote things?

wear a red ribbon around your wrist and finger to denote I cannot do as my gods wish.
If you cant do that wear a black braclet, for it must be kept secret i cannot do as my gods wish
not that a black ring, for it must be kept a secret that it is a secret ...
not that write a mark on the palm of your hand...for it must be hidden that it must be a secret that ahh its umm...

you get the idea? I dont think moslems have such symbolism though so it only means something to those who read this post.

salem
Flag Atsila March 2, 2008 5:49 PM EST
I know that the Quran does not say for women to cover their hair.  If people want to interpret it differently, then that is up to them.  I also know that the Quran warns against muslims judging each other's faith, so you should be careful. 

wassalam,
Atsila
Flag deenbash March 13, 2008 2:26 PM EDT
assalamu alaikum,quiting the job is the best option
Flag witness22 March 17, 2008 10:20 PM EDT
Wow! Last time I looked at this post, I think three people had responded. I was shocked to see my post headlined on the Islam section at beliefnet today, and even more shocked to find *pages* of posts in response!

I'm sure some of you (Miraj) will be happy to hear that I've stopped wearing the hijab. I realized that as much as it felt right to wear it, I didn't know enough about Islam and I was afraid that in my ignorance I was going to do something very wrong that would give non-Muslims the wrong impression of the religion.

Thank all of you for your advice, even the tongue lashings! I didn't wear the hijab to cause conflict - it was just the reaction of my co-workers. (To give you an idea of how bad it was, one afternoon a couple months after my post, a man stopped his car alongside our building, probably the most private place he could find, laid out his prayer rug, and began praying. I litterally had to stop the men I worked with from calling the police to report "suspicious behavior" and going out to harass the man and chase him off. I kept them arguing with me until the man had finished and left.) I agree that I don't want my faith to antagonize other people. But where do we draw the line? We can't keep pulling the line back to accomodate other people's prejudices and misconceptions and hatreds. That only fosters it. I don't mean that we should be up in people's faces with it either, but if women stopped wearing the hijab - or people like that man stopped praying where they could be seen - because of the west's prejudices and misconceptions, people here would never have the chance to understand things differently.

It's hard for me to explain why I love wearing the hijab, even though I'm not Muslim - and even if it's not actually required. I felt *beautiful* in it - but it wasn't about how I looked. (I'm sure I was doing a really clumsy job!) When I get dressed in the morning, I always feel like I'm putting on someone else's clothes, even when I'm wearing things I've had for years. But the first time I put on the hijab, it was the first time it felt like I was putting on something that was mine, that I belonged in. I felt beautiful, not because of how I looked, but because I felt like myself in a way that I hadn't known was missing before. When I looked in the mirror, I recognized myself in a way I hadn't before. The only statement by it that mattered to me was the statement that it made to myself and to God - like wrapping myself in a promise or an idea of the kind of person I know I am not yet, but that I want to become. It was a reminder to myself of this. I felt like I was putting on my faith and my dreams. I don't know if that makes sense, but it's the best explanation I can give.

Unfortunately, I haven't gotten any further in my decision on whether to become Muslim. I need help understanding this, but haven't been able to get to a mosque from where I live. I'm moving though - this week actually - and I discovered there is a mosque near by. I've tried contacting them a couple of times by e-mail to find out about visiting, but I haven't gotten a response. Can anyone tell me how to find out about going there? Is it okay for me to just show up if I can't get a hold of anyone? What would be expected of me as a visitor? I know that they have classes there in English once a week. Does anyone know if it might be acceptable for me to go to learn more, even if I decide not to become Muslim? I'm finally getting back into school for a theology degree (thank God!), and I'm worried about learning about Islam from a text book taught by someone who doesn't practice the religion. Whether I convert or not, I would much rather learn about Islam from the teachers and Muslims at a mosque if I can.

Thanks and blessings and peace.
Flag newmuslimlady March 18, 2008 6:48 PM EDT
Quote: Unfortunately, I haven't gotten any further in my decision on whether to become Muslim. I need help understanding this, but haven't been able to get to a mosque from where I live. I'm moving though - this week actually - and I discovered there is a mosque near by. I've tried contacting them a couple of times by e-mail to find out about visiting, but I haven't gotten a response. Can anyone tell me how to find out about going there? Is it okay for me to just show up if I can't get a hold of anyone? What would be expected of me as a visitor? I know that they have classes there in English once a week. Does anyone know if it might be acceptable for me to go to learn more, even if I decide not to become Muslim? I'm finally getting back into school for a theology degree (thank God!), and I'm worried about learning about Islam from a text book taught by someone who doesn't practice the religion. Whether I convert or not, I would much rather learn about Islam from the teachers and Muslims at a mosque if I can.

Witness22- I'm sure any Mosque would be more than happy if you came and wanted to learn more about Islam, whether you decide to be Muslim or not.   The main Mosque and Islamic center where I live has open houses to anyone who wants to learn more about Islam.  Church groups, senior groups, etc. come most weekends and listen to a lecture and the Mosque even serves them lunch.   They also have classes on sundays for non-muslims who just want to show up and get information on Islam.  So I'd just show up and ask when they have classes or lectures open to the public.   As long as you dress modestly(not saying you have to cover your hair,etc.) when you come to the Mosque I wouldn't worry about anything else.   Just walk inside and be yourself.   No one is going to bite ya. LOL.    I'd like to say that I give you a lot of credit for wanting to learn about Islam from the source, not from some non-muslims who most likely will try to misguide you.  :)
Flag Cooper April 28, 2008 8:49 PM EDT
[QUOTE=monotheist;27276]Wa'alaikum Assalam:

I'm really happy for you that God is leading you to Islam.  Take your time.  Try attending a mosque.  Most have classes and halaqas (study circles) for new members or people interested in Islam. 

Peace.[/QUOTE]


Good advice.  I say the same thing to people who are considering conversion to Judaism....take your time, study, go to synagogue.


This woman should wear her head scarf and then take legal action if he fires her.



Shalom
Flag Ms_Sunshine May 2, 2008 4:56 PM EDT
How sad is it that people feel that they need to make a choice between wearing hijab and working?
Flag simply_believe May 6, 2008 4:46 PM EDT
[QUOTE=witness22;23599]Asalamu alaikum. I hope I'm posting this in the right place.

I am seriously considering taking Islam as my faith. I've only been studying it for a few weeks, and there's many questions I still need answered first, but no other religion has captured both my heart and mind the way Islam has. I pray at the correct times whenever I can, or as close to it as I can get, and even if I don't convert I find myself loving the hijab and Islamic ways of dressing. But I've discovered that I work in an environment with deep-running prejudices and fears.

I told my boss that I wanted to wear the hijab to work one day to see how customers would react (and secretly to see how my coworkers would react). My conservative Christian boss was shocked at first (no one has any idea that I'm considering converting) and almost said no, but eventually agreed, thinking I was doing it as a social experiment since I want to go into theology. But he said I could only do it on a day when the store owner wasn't there, because if the owner saw me in the hijab he would "blow up". When I asked why, my boss told me that it was because the owner was a "good, faithful Christian" - a very complimentary, twisted synonym for "intolerant" in this situation. In the process of talking about me doing this "experiment" my boss also told me that there was actually a rule against it. Well, actually the rule is against wearing hats, but the rule says "no headgear", and now that I've brought this up "headgear" is now being interpreted as including hijab - and it was made very clear to me that this is the one and only time I will be allowed to do this "experiment", and that if it starts causing any problems with customers, I am to immediately take it off (although I think my coworkers are already reacting much more than the customers will).

So I'm faced with a dilemma: I want to wear the hijab! Even if I don't convert, I think I want to wear it. But now I could get fired, not on the basis of my religion, but because I'm wearing a headscarf. Do they really think that if I put a piece of fabric on my head it makes me a different person than I was yesterday? No! It is only an external expression seen today of what was already in my heart yesterday, and many days before that. But it has been made clear to me that these men I work with are extremely conservative Christians who want the entire world to be a reflection of themselves and their values, and I'm already forced to sit all day and listen to them vent their prejudices, and there is no room in their hearts for tolerance.

Part of me wants to start wearing the hijab just to get myself fired so I don't have to listen to their hate anymore. I took this job out of desperation, and I don't like the work or the people I work with. But to get the job I had to give my word that I would work there for a year. It's only been three months. As wrong as all this is, I'm not sure it would make it right to break my promise. It takes a month to train someone for this job, sometimes longer, so if I quit during the middle of the busy season I would be leaving them in a lurch. Part of me has no problem with that - if they don't want to work with a muslim, I don't want to work with them (really I'm rather afraid to), and I'd rather quit than have them looking for ways to fire me. I know that if I did convert they wouldn't allow me to pray at work - I had to fight with them and almost pass out just to get a lunch break! But on the other hand, the owner's son has cancer, and I have heard him crying to God to know why his son has to suffer, and I don't want to add to his burdens by breaking my word and putting him in a hard place.

So, the dilemma is: my hijab, or my job? Please give me advice!

Peace and blessings upon you all.[/QUOTE]

Walaikum assalam,
Sister, they cannot tell you what to wear. if Hijab is your part of dress, you have to talk to your boss. My company have same rules but i have a beard, I have this jewish girl, she cover up her hair and our boss is okay.

If you worry about the job, then Allah hads promise for food. He said you born with your Rizq(food). Its pre-determined. so, don't worry about your job.  He is the Raziq(the Food provider). Ask God for help, believe in Him and then leave everything on Him. You are not doing any thing wrong.

Assalam u alaikum
Flag simply_believe May 6, 2008 4:49 PM EDT
[QUOTE=newmuslimlady;366345]Quote: Unfortunately, I haven't gotten any further in my decision on whether to become Muslim. I need help understanding this, but haven't been able to get to a mosque from where I live. I'm moving though - this week actually - and I discovered there is a mosque near by. I've tried contacting them a couple of times by e-mail to find out about visiting, but I haven't gotten a response. Can anyone tell me how to find out about going there? Is it okay for me to just show up if I can't get a hold of anyone? What would be expected of me as a visitor? I know that they have classes there in English once a week. Does anyone know if it might be acceptable for me to go to learn more, even if I decide not to become Muslim? I'm finally getting back into school for a theology degree (thank God!), and I'm worried about learning about Islam from a text book taught by someone who doesn't practice the religion. Whether I convert or not, I would much rather learn about Islam from the teachers and Muslims at a mosque if I can.

Witness22- I'm sure any Mosque would be more than happy if you came and wanted to learn more about Islam, whether you decide to be Muslim or not.   The main Mosque and Islamic center where I live has open houses to anyone who wants to learn more about Islam.  Church groups, senior groups, etc. come most weekends and listen to a lecture and the Mosque even serves them lunch.   They also have classes on sundays for non-muslims who just want to show up and get information on Islam.  So I'd just show up and ask when they have classes or lectures open to the public.   As long as you dress modestly(not saying you have to cover your hair,etc.) when you come to the Mosque I wouldn't worry about anything else.   Just walk inside and be yourself.   No one is going to bite ya. LOL.    I'd like to say that I give you a lot of credit for wanting to learn about Islam from the source, not from some non-muslims who most likely will try to misguide you.  :)[/QUOTE]
show up to your local mosque. no body should say any thing. If you still don't get any respone, go to www.sahriaboard.com and ask these well world known scholars to give you the response you were looking for. I know you will get the esponse from these scholars with in fews days at the most. take care and assalam u alikum
Flag simply_believe May 6, 2008 4:53 PM EDT
[QUOTE=witness22;364215]Wow! Last time I looked at this post, I think three people had responded. I was shocked to see my post headlined on the Islam section at beliefnet today, and even more shocked to find *pages* of posts in response!

I'm sure some of you (Miraj) will be happy to hear that I've stopped wearing the hijab. I realized that as much as it felt right to wear it, I didn't know enough about Islam and I was afraid that in my ignorance I was going to do something very wrong that would give non-Muslims the wrong impression of the religion.

Thank all of you for your advice, even the tongue lashings! I didn't wear the hijab to cause conflict - it was just the reaction of my co-workers. (To give you an idea of how bad it was, one afternoon a couple months after my post, a man stopped his car alongside our building, probably the most private place he could find, laid out his prayer rug, and began praying. I litterally had to stop the men I worked with from calling the police to report "suspicious behavior" and going out to harass the man and chase him off. I kept them arguing with me until the man had finished and left.) I agree that I don't want my faith to antagonize other people. But where do we draw the line? We can't keep pulling the line back to accomodate other people's prejudices and misconceptions and hatreds. That only fosters it. I don't mean that we should be up in people's faces with it either, but if women stopped wearing the hijab - or people like that man stopped praying where they could be seen - because of the west's prejudices and misconceptions, people here would never have the chance to understand things differently.

It's hard for me to explain why I love wearing the hijab, even though I'm not Muslim - and even if it's not actually required. I felt *beautiful* in it - but it wasn't about how I looked. (I'm sure I was doing a really clumsy job!) When I get dressed in the morning, I always feel like I'm putting on someone else's clothes, even when I'm wearing things I've had for years. But the first time I put on the hijab, it was the first time it felt like I was putting on something that was mine, that I belonged in. I felt beautiful, not because of how I looked, but because I felt like myself in a way that I hadn't known was missing before. When I looked in the mirror, I recognized myself in a way I hadn't before. The only statement by it that mattered to me was the statement that it made to myself and to God - like wrapping myself in a promise or an idea of the kind of person I know I am not yet, but that I want to become. It was a reminder to myself of this. I felt like I was putting on my faith and my dreams. I don't know if that makes sense, but it's the best explanation I can give.

Unfortunately, I haven't gotten any further in my decision on whether to become Muslim. I need help understanding this, but haven't been able to get to a mosque from where I live. I'm moving though - this week actually - and I discovered there is a mosque near by. I've tried contacting them a couple of times by e-mail to find out about visiting, but I haven't gotten a response. Can anyone tell me how to find out about going there? Is it okay for me to just show up if I can't get a hold of anyone? What would be expected of me as a visitor? I know that they have classes there in English once a week. Does anyone know if it might be acceptable for me to go to learn more, even if I decide not to become Muslim? I'm finally getting back into school for a theology degree (thank God!), and I'm worried about learning about Islam from a text book taught by someone who doesn't practice the religion. Whether I convert or not, I would much rather learn about Islam from the teachers and Muslims at a mosque if I can.

Thanks and blessings and peace.[/QUOTE]
You also have legal right to pray. If they don't let you prayat work, then you ask them to go to mosque. You could do that on office. This is in constitution. Nobody, even President Bush cannot stop you from your right to pray.

If they stop you from this, then get a good lawyer and sue them for discrimnation and hate crime. We all are with you..
Flag GraceSA May 7, 2008 5:29 AM EDT
[QUOTE=simply_believe;482035]

If you worry about the job, then Allah hads promise for food. He said you born with your Rizq(food). Its pre-determined. so, don't worry about your job.  He is the Raziq(the Food provider). Ask God for help, believe in Him and then leave everything on Him. You are not doing any thing wrong.

Assalam u alaikum[/QUOTE]

I disagree.  You should be concerned about your job, and food situation.  There are MANY starving Muslims in this world.
Flag docwitchy May 7, 2008 9:01 AM EDT
[QUOTE=simply_believe;482048]You also have legal right to pray. If they don't let you pray at work, then you ask them to go to mosque. You could do that on office. This is in constitution. Nobody, even President Bush cannot stop you from your right to pray.

If they stop you from this, then get a good lawyer and sue them for discrimnation and hate crime. We all are with you..[/QUOTE]
______________________________________________________________________________

Whereas everyone has the right to pray, an employer does not have to provide time off from work specifically at a certain time for prayers. An employer does not have to provide a specific place either. I'm not the only Muslim on the staff of my hospital. And all of us understand that our duties and responsibilities to our patients come first, every time, all the time, no exceptions for anything. We have a chapel in the hospital which may be used by anyone for prayer, and is in fact often used. It is not dedicated to any particular faith, but is open to all and I'd be among the first to complain if that ever changed.

I am concerned that some brothers and sisters seem to want employers in the United States to give Muslims special considerations and rights. This is the WORST thing we Muslims can do in terms of our being good Americans, which the huge majority of us are!

Getting back to the hijab issue, we don't care if employees wear religious clothing, including the hijab, a long as it doesn't  interfere with patient care, and, of course, does not intrude into sterile places like operating rooms or ICU's. NOBODY ENTERS MY OR WHEN I'M OPERATING IN ANYTHING EXCEPT STERILE CLOTHING IN ACCORDANCE WITH GOOD MEDICAL PRACTICES...which have nothing to do with any religion including mine. One of my favorite nurse-anesthetists is a sister who comes to work in a hijab and wears it when not in scrubs. When she is in scrubs, on the floor, or in the OR she OF COURSE is clothed like all the other medical professionals in our hospital.

I suppose this issue will never go away :(

Salaam,

Mariah
Flag tired1 May 7, 2008 12:56 PM EDT
Aslamu aleikum,
I'd have to weigh in on the side of postponing wearing the hijab to work. I'd suggest that you seek a more flexible employer first as it sounds like your work environment is pretty insensitive. I'd also like to point out the one can achive modesty with out wearing a large acarp as it typically seen. many sisters do exactly what Miraih is speaking about. They wear a modified version. I, for example, am a professor at a large university. Technically I could wear full abaya and niquab, but it wouldn't be tacitly accepted. I rpobably wouldn't be teaching and certainly wouldn't have the level of opportunity I have now. I know that's sad but I have to earn a livelihood and take care of my kids so I can't ignore the situation. What I do is to wear a full coverage hat and a turtle neck under a loose jacket. and  pants. I'm just a covered up but in a manner more in keeping with my role. Islam is not so rigid as to prevent better ways of living our lives. Work on Islam and the basics first and then gradually make changes in your life accordingly.
Flag simply_believe May 12, 2008 7:06 PM EDT
as to your comment, mr. docwitchy, I totally agree with you. but pray has thier times. You have to do them in that time. You cannot combine all of them in one time and do them when you have time. None of the thing in this world go as WE (human) plan. we had to follow the time and do our dews.
It is depend on Employer to give you the place to pray but he/she had to allow you to go to pray. Our duty toward ALLAH come first then any thing else, That include all and EVERYTHING including your own parents and wife and kids. it takes only at the most 20 minute to perform any prayer.
Flag simply_believe May 12, 2008 7:11 PM EDT
[QUOTE=GraceSA;483310]I disagree.  You should be concerned about your job, and food situation.  There are MANY starving Muslims in this world.[/QUOTE]

yes there are so many starving people in this world of all religion but they are not leaving their trust in GOD. I am not saying to leave your job right away, but If you don't find a common ground with your boss, then leave.
Flag GraceSA May 13, 2008 1:21 AM EDT
I"m glad you don't suggest leaving the job right away.

When some one is starving, that does not mean they don't leave their trust in Allah.  They may or may not.  Sometimes it is the consequences of their own actions- sometimes it is an injustice upon them.

I have seen so many Muslims encouraged to have HUGE families they cannot afford.  Because they are told Allah will provide.  Well- they are hungry now.  Allah gave us a brain.  We should try to be wise with our decisions.
Flag hajali May 13, 2008 7:38 AM EDT
[QUOTE=GraceSA;495481]I"m glad you don't suggest leaving the job right away.

When some one is starving, that does not mean they don't leave their trust in Allah.  They may or may not.  Sometimes it is the consequences of their own actions- sometimes it is an injustice upon them.

I have seen so many Muslims encouraged to have HUGE families they cannot afford.  Because they are told Allah will provide.  Well- they are hungry now.  Allah gave us a brain.  We should try to be wise with our decisions.[/QUOTE]


assalamu alyakum sister GraceSA

being long time i did not see you posting round, hope you all OK.,

sister it in not enough for Muslima  / Muslim to be wise with their decisions, here is;

16:42 (They are) those who persevere in patience, and put their trust on their Lord.

They must trust in their Lord (yatawakkaloona)  I afraid that this Translation is not reaching the sign of the Arabic word (yatawakkaloona) .

and in their Sustainer place their trust!

and put their trust, in their Lord and Cherisher. 

so, this trust is like advanced Hope as Allah may bring peace to this hope like this;

11:88 He said: "O my people! see ye whether I have a Clear (Sign) from my Lord, and He hath given me sustenance (pure and) good as from Himself? I wish not, in opposition to you, to do that which I forbid you to do. I only desire (your) betterment to the best of my power; and my success (in my task) can only come from Allah. In Him I trust, and unto Him I look.

Follow the words ……best of my power …. And my success (in my task)   can ONLY come from ALLAH, … in him I trust and Into Him I look.

Only Allah I trust He bring the "profitable to me. to My hope ,  to my work, and not my wise decision.

Go look how many tuff decision ended for good and how many high profaned decision ended for good too. How many  -what can be counted-  " Wise"  decision ended for terrible result.

So all decision need the Help and bounty of Allah Almighty, still weneed to  think and seek for wisdom.

but it is not all what we as Muslim do count on.

salam
Flag GraceSA May 13, 2008 2:47 PM EDT
[QUOTE=hajali;495761]assalamu alyakum sister GraceSA

being long time i did not see you posting round, hope you all OK.,

sister it in not enough for Muslima  / Muslim to be wise with their decisions, here is;

16:42 (They are) those who persevere in patience, and put their trust on their Lord.

They must trust in their Lord (yatawakkaloona)  I afraid that this Translation is not reaching the sign of the Arabic word (yatawakkaloona) .

and in their Sustainer place their trust!

and put their trust, in their Lord and Cherisher. 

so, this trust is like advanced Hope as Allah may bring peace to this hope like this;

11:88 He said: "O my people! see ye whether I have a Clear (Sign) from my Lord, and He hath given me sustenance (pure and) good as from Himself? I wish not, in opposition to you, to do that which I forbid you to do. I only desire (your) betterment to the best of my power; and my success (in my task) can only come from Allah. In Him I trust, and unto Him I look.

Follow the words ……best of my power …. And my success (in my task)   can ONLY come from ALLAH, … in him I trust and Into Him I look.

Only Allah I trust He bring the "profitable to me. to My hope ,  to my work, and not my wise decision.

Go look how many tuff decision ended for good and how many high profaned decision ended for good too. How many  -what can be counted-  " Wise"  decision ended for terrible result.

So all decision need the Help and bounty of Allah Almighty, still weneed to  think and seek for wisdom.

but it is not all what we as Muslim do count on.

salam[/QUOTE]

Salaam Hajali,

I'm fine thank you- just very busy.  I think perhaps you misunderstood me.  Of course we should always rely on the guidence of Allah.  I am just saying I believe it is wrong not to try to use the brains Allah gave us and make a good decision.  Of course, if our "decision" is something unIslamic than then we are on the wrong track.  Islam gives us guidelines.  But we can't just do whatever we want and leave it to Allah.

Many people where we live are doing that very thing.  They say it is up to Allah when people die- and they use that excuse to drive recklessly- I know you understand what I mean.  Yes, we should trust in Allah, but we have a responsibility to TRY not to endanger and kill others with our cars.

If you know you cannot afford food for your children- you should not be trying to have more.  Allah has given us a certain amount - though not total control.  But to say that Allah will provide food for every Muslim child-  is clearly being misunderstood and misapplied, or there wouldn't be so many starving Muslim children.

Salaam,
Grace
Flag hajali May 14, 2008 5:54 AM EDT
[QUOTE=GraceSA;496577]Salaam Hajali,

I'm fine thank you- just very busy.  I think perhaps you misunderstood me.  Of course we should always rely on the guidence of Allah.  I am just saying I believe it is wrong not to try to use the brains Allah gave us and make a good decision.  Of course, if our "decision" is something unIslamic than then we are on the wrong track.  Islam gives us guidelines.  But we can't just do whatever we want and leave it to Allah.

Many people where we live are doing that very thing.  They say it is up to Allah when people die- and they use that excuse to drive recklessly- I know you understand what I mean.  Yes, we should trust in Allah, but we have a responsibility to TRY not to endanger and kill others with our cars.

If you know you cannot afford food for your children- you should not be trying to have more.  Allah has given us a certain amount - though not total control.  But to say that Allah will provide food for every Muslim child-  is clearly being misunderstood and misapplied, or there wouldn't be so many starving Muslim children.

Salaam,
Grace[/QUOTE]


I got your point and I understand what you are saying, but maybe I did not make my self clear enough as the point is not easy to get to.

Now, the case is this:  I rely on the Guidance of Allah, I try my utmost  to use my brain I seek to state a good decision I am on the right tack. but still one thing here is missing;

STILL, not all,....   I have to add for those intentions my trust on Allah, I SHOULD not rely to my efforts,  but I should rely on Allah by  praying and looking to the help of Allah, the mercy of Allah, I count On HIM Only, and not on my effort.

  although  my decision can be considered "perfect" in all Muslim man's counts still I need the Help of Allah almighty.
this look will lead to  the completion of my wisdom, as it is Only with this hope (Allah will help) and not what I "wisely" count.

The wisdom is :  do all what can be wisely honestly done and follow it with  hope and look unto Allah to help  "insightful" to go through.

This as per the following Verse;

42:12 To Him belong the keys of the heavens and the earth: He enlarges and restricts. The Sustenance to whom He will: for He knows full well all things.

Comments; the keys of evrrrrry thing is in the hand of Allah, so what ever we seek we seek for one of these keeeeeeeys  what ever we pay it will come back to these keys.

Allah almighty is controlling and witnessing erey portion of this universe and sure we are part of this universal
So what ever we intend or do not intend is subject to the allowance of these "keys"  as may, may not our things come through the way we count. for it.

So we do and Allah almighty do totally manage all what is in this universe.

11:88 ……..and my success (in my task) can only come from Allah. In Him I trust, and unto Him I look.

This what should be though when we say ( up to Allah) as Up to Him of what HE control and witness every movement in the  universe. Even for the thing which comes to our thinking to our heart Allah know about it.   


((((If you know you cannot afford food for your children- you should not be trying to have more. ))))

You can read the past and the present but you can not read the future, so how you figure that the family will live all their life with poorness. ?
And if they will be little wealthy later on,  then it could be too late to have children so  they miss this valuable chance.
For what you brought as an example here is from the Quran;

17:31 Kill not your children for fear of want: We shall provide sustenance for them as well as for you. Verily the killing of them is a great sin.


salam
Flag GraceSA May 14, 2008 7:48 AM EDT
Killing them is a COMPLETELY different thing.  I am saying when your children are already starving- it is reckless not to try to stop.  IF you have more anyway then ALLAH has decided for you.  IF you later have wealth- you don't need more children if you are too old.  Feed some of the other starving children.  There are MANY valueble opportunities to feed starving children.

Too many men accumulate children they cannot take care of- one would think they are more concerned with the rewards of this world than the hereafter.  You don't need ANY children to get to Paradise.  Why the obsession?
Flag zaugatmisr May 18, 2008 1:32 PM EDT
Bismilllahi Rahmani Rahim - In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

Hello.  I congratulate you for learning about Islam and I sincerely hope you do accept Islam soon.  It will be the best decision you will ever make in your life.

I am an American revert.  I have been Muslim for 15 years.  I wear hijaab and have for most of the time I have been Muslim.  I have worked while wearing hijaab and I am now a work at home mom so I dress however I want.  I consider myself pretty conservative.  Here is how I would advise you in this matter.

Please remember that covering is very important in Islam but it is NOT one of the pillars of the faith that makes you Muslim or not Muslim.  I think many new Muslimahs tend to obsess over the hijaab and are pressured into wearing it or made to feel very guilty if they don't, as if the hijaab is a badge of righteousness.  Much more important is what is going on inside your heart and soul.  Deciding on wearing hijaab can become a natural outgrowth of that but a headscarf by itself does not make you a better Muslimah.  The fundamentals of Islam are prayer, fasting, and giving zakah.  If you are doing this or trying to do so you are actually doing really well.  I think you will put undue pressure on yourself and cause yourself much misery at work if you impose hijaab on yourself under these circumstances.

You could go all "I know my rights" with your bosses but believe me that you will have a very hostile work environment and you will end up either giving yourself an ulcer or quitting your job anyway.  You could come to resent the hijaab, Allah forbid, as the source of your misery, and then you'll end up second-guessing yourself or deciding you can't wear it.  It can be worse to wear hijaab and then take it off rather than easing into it in the first place. 

What you can do for now is to dress as modestly as you can at work, long skirts and long-sleeved loose shirts and such, and then you can put on your hijaab when you leave and wear it other places.  If it were me, I would be looking for another job, because as a Muslim with intolerant bosses you will no doubt start having troubles in the future no matter how you dress, now that they know you are considering Islam.  So what I would do is brush up the resume and start looking for a job - and interview IN HIJAAB so there will be no surprises for either side.  Staying at your current job is a short-term issue.  InshAllah, Allah willing, you will be able to find a better position in a better environment.

If you wish to contact me for more discussion about this please feel free to do so at zaugatmisr@yahoo.com.  I can help you with practical ideas for continuing to grow as a Muslimah while not putting yourself in the poor house, lol.  It is a complex issue and I don't want to just give you a "here, do this and all will be well" answer since I don't know all the details of your life, like are you a single mom trying to raise kids or is your job something you can replace farily easily and all that.  InshAllah Allah will make a way for you to be gainfully employed and dress in the best manner that is pleasing to Him.  But do remember that Islam was revealed over the course of 23 years, not all at once, and as long as you are making your baby steps in the right direction every day, then Allah will not allow any of your good deeds to be lost and He is the Most Merciful.

I would be very happy to help you and pray that you submit to Allah at the soonest.  The Shahadah, the Declaration of Faith, is an easy thing to say but it will be the most important thing you can say, because it will bring you officially into the fold of Islam.  May Allah guide you to the best in this world and the next.  Ameen.

Fi Aman Allah (I leave you in the trust of Allah)

Nancy Umm Abdel Hamid
Flag zaugatmisr May 18, 2008 1:32 PM EDT
Bismilllahi Rahmani Rahim - In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

Hello.  I congratulate you for learning about Islam and I sincerely hope you do accept Islam soon.  It will be the best decision you will ever make in your life.

I am an American revert.  I have been Muslim for 15 years.  I wear hijaab and have for most of the time I have been Muslim.  I have worked while wearing hijaab and I am now a work at home mom so I dress however I want.  I consider myself pretty conservative.  Here is how I would advise you in this matter.

Please remember that covering is very important in Islam but it is NOT one of the pillars of the faith that makes you Muslim or not Muslim.  I think many new Muslimahs tend to obsess over the hijaab and are pressured into wearing it or made to feel very guilty if they don't, as if the hijaab is a badge of righteousness.  Much more important is what is going on inside your heart and soul.  Deciding on wearing hijaab can become a natural outgrowth of that but a headscarf by itself does not make you a better Muslimah.  The fundamentals of Islam are prayer, fasting, and giving zakah.  If you are doing this or trying to do so you are actually doing really well.  I think you will put undue pressure on yourself and cause yourself much misery at work if you impose hijaab on yourself under these circumstances.

You could go all "I know my rights" with your bosses but believe me that you will have a very hostile work environment and you will end up either giving yourself an ulcer or quitting your job anyway.  You could come to resent the hijaab, Allah forbid, as the source of your misery, and then you'll end up second-guessing yourself or deciding you can't wear it.  It can be worse to wear hijaab and then take it off rather than easing into it in the first place. 

What you can do for now is to dress as modestly as you can at work, long skirts and long-sleeved loose shirts and such, and then you can put on your hijaab when you leave and wear it other places.  If it were me, I would be looking for another job, because as a Muslim with intolerant bosses you will no doubt start having troubles in the future no matter how you dress, now that they know you are considering Islam.  So what I would do is brush up the resume and start looking for a job - and interview IN HIJAAB so there will be no surprises for either side.  Staying at your current job is a short-term issue.  InshAllah, Allah willing, you will be able to find a better position in a better environment.

If you wish to contact me for more discussion about this please feel free to do so at zaugatmisr@yahoo.com.  I can help you with practical ideas for continuing to grow as a Muslimah while not putting yourself in the poor house, lol.  It is a complex issue and I don't want to just give you a "here, do this and all will be well" answer since I don't know all the details of your life, like are you a single mom trying to raise kids or is your job something you can replace farily easily and all that.  InshAllah Allah will make a way for you to be gainfully employed and dress in the best manner that is pleasing to Him.  But do remember that Islam was revealed over the course of 23 years, not all at once, and as long as you are making your baby steps in the right direction every day, then Allah will not allow any of your good deeds to be lost and He is the Most Merciful.

I would be very happy to help you and pray that you submit to Allah at the soonest.  The Shahadah, the Declaration of Faith, is an easy thing to say but it will be the most important thing you can say, because it will bring you officially into the fold of Islam.  May Allah guide you to the best in this world and the next.  Ameen.

Fi Aman Allah (I leave you in the trust of Allah)

Nancy Umm Abdel Hamid
Flag endgame May 20, 2008 2:15 PM EDT
[QUOTE=docwitchy;483453]____________________________________________________...

Whereas everyone has the right to pray, an employer does not have to provide time off from work specifically at a certain time for prayers. An employer does not have to provide a specific place either. I'm not the only Muslim on the staff of my hospital. And all of us understand that our duties and responsibilities to our patients come first, every time, all the time, no exceptions for anything. We have a chapel in the hospital which may be used by anyone for prayer, and is in fact often used. It is not dedicated to any particular faith, but is open to all and I'd be among the first to complain if that ever changed.

I am concerned that some brothers and sisters seem to want employers in the United States to give Muslims special considerations and rights. This is the WORST thing we Muslims can do in terms of our being good Americans, which the huge majority of us are!

Salaam,

Mariah[/QUOTE]

Asalaamualaikum sister,
I do not think any muslim looking to observe their religious practices is demanding any special considerations or rights. Contrary to what you said, federal employment law already gives protection of religious rights to employees.
Federal Law requires an employer to "reasonably accomodate" an employee's religious observances, practices and beliefs (this includes wearing hijab) unless the employer can show that accommodation would cause an "undue hardship" to the employer's business. What constitutes "reasonable accommodation" and "undue hardship" depends on the facts unique to a particular situation. Essentially, an employer must attempt to create a structure permitting employees to practice their religious beliefs while still maintaining their jobs. In some cases, accommodation may not be possible. However, the employer bears the burden of demonstrating that a serious attempt to accommodate the employee was made.
No muslim is asking for anything special, only their rights provided under secular law. An employee obviously can make the situation easier by being upfront about their needs during the acceptance of a job or what have you.
Flag endgame May 30, 2008 11:44 AM EDT
[QUOTE=VICTORIA JEAN;532018]SALAAMS ALL-  While the laws may state that our religion is protected, in reality no employer is dumb enough to say that hijab is the reason you were not hired or were fired.
   It is impossible to prove what is unsaid by an employer.
   And to ask for special time to pray certainly may put an unfair workload on co-workers.
   I feel it is bad manners to be expectant of favor and consideration- without first being sensitive to the very real fears others may have around you.
They also have a right to feel comfortable- America i not an Islamic society- so extra care must be taken to be as solicitous of the feelings of others as one expects them to be of ones religious practices.
.[/QUOTE]

Asalaamualaikum,
Special time to pray in no way puts an unfair workload on co-workers. There are many ways one can make up that time by coming in early or staying late. Friday prayers more often than not fall around lunch time and can easily be worked in. Ofcourse not all work situations are like this but my point is there are options which can easily be worked for both employee and employer to get the best solution. It is not bad manners and again no one is asking for special favors. A special favor would be something if it was not already allowed by law which clearly it is. Yes, some employers might not want you because of your dress code but chances are that same employer will find something else wrong with you even if you didnt adhere to your dress code so is that job really worth having? Second, most employers are aware of muslim requirements nowadays and if they are not, they are willing to work with you. That has always been my experience in my 10+ years in a professional career. They key is to be upfront about it when accepting a position. The jews/african americans did not get their rights by being silent and accepting the norm. The more we mention it, the more it will become the norm. I have never had anyone complain about it. One has to be reasonable in their demands, thats all.
Flag Divad737 May 30, 2008 5:07 PM EDT
Can any of the women in Egypt please respond to the massive movement to re-establish veiling. What is the significance of it politically, socially and culturally for women? How do the women in the West feel about this topic? Please specify where you come from (does not have to be specific; East or West will do)
Flag GabrielleG June 5, 2008 11:35 AM EDT
you are not obligated to wear hijab if it will make things difficult for you. but in the end, it is your decision. if you are doing this to see a reaction, that is not a good reason. you should do it because of your religious faith. you are still new to Islam... go slow...

there is also an aya in the Qur'an (and i am paraphrasing) that says "do not take Islam as sport" you may want to highly consider that verse. Islam is not a game... it is a spiritual way of life that brings peace to oneself. do not use it to antagonize.
Flag GabrielleG June 5, 2008 11:35 AM EDT
you are not obligated to wear hijab if it will make things difficult for you. but in the end, it is your decision. if you are doing this to see a reaction, that is not a good reason. you should do it because of your religious faith. you are still new to Islam... go slow...

there is also an aya in the Qur'an (and i am paraphrasing) that says "do not take Islam as sport" you may want to highly consider that verse. Islam is not a game... it is a spiritual way of life that brings peace to oneself. do not use it to antagonize.
Flag minUnee July 4, 2008 1:56 PM EDT
Asalamu alaikum,
As per the hijab, I feel each women takes on their on level when it comes to this issue. End result how strong is your iman?
The best answer for this is in the Qu'ran which states  “Say to believing women, that they cast down their eyes and guard their private parts, and reveal not their adornment save such as is outward; and let them drape their headcoverings over their bosoms, and not reveal their adornment . . .” (Qur’an 24:31).
One concern i do have with you is when you stated " I want to wear the hijab! Even if I don't convert, I think I want to wear it." This alarms me as a muslima for the fact the hijab IS NOT a fashion statement. It is not something you put on one day and then next say well I am not wearing it today. May Allah help guide you with the true meaning of the hijab.
I converted to Islam over 10 years ago ahumdillah. It took me over 7 years to commit my iman to wearing the hijab and wearing the proper islamic dress. For the fact is I know once I put it on, there is no person, society or establishments that will ever change my mind of my decision no matter what trial or tribulation that befalls me. For I have accepted everything is from Allah. Ahumdillah!
To the point I had to sacrifice relations with my son (14 yrs of age) who is Roman Catholic. For the fact he does not accept Islam or anything of it. So he does not what anything to do with me. I am a "terrorist" in his eyes as he tells me. Now I know I could easily take it off, go see him and put it back on when I am in my own community. In all reality, I feel that goes against my true Iman. Even though I love my son very muchI
I suggest you do more research on Islam and the Hijab.
May Allah guide you with the answers you need.
Masalam
Flag sazaj36 July 4, 2008 4:42 PM EDT
Islam is about breaking down barriers and bringing people together...not about building walls and tearing people apart. I do not believe God orders hijab even if others believe God does...but Im 100% sure God does not want us to forsake our children...and 14 years old is still a child...when its written in the Quran to not even forsake our own parents and say oof to them if they are not Muslim and advise us to do things against our religion. If we are advised to keep relations with our parents even when they are against us by way or another...how much more deserving are our children to keep the ties that bind...God mentions the love of a mother for her child as one of the strongest bonds there is....but it seems your love of hijab supercedes your love for your child...and I cant believe for a moment that God ask that of any mother. God is Most Merciful....right?
Flag minUnee July 4, 2008 5:35 PM EDT
I totally understand what you are saying. I have explained to my son that we are praying to the same God just in different ways. When I am home the hijab is not on unless visitors (non family) enter the home. The problem lays when it comes to being outside. He is embarrassed and ashamed of me for the way I choose to dress. He feels that people will think he is a muslim. That is why he disowned me. I did not disown him. I do keep daily phone calls with him and anything in reason he needs I provide. I am just missing the face to face contact with him. Since this issue of my dress and the way some of society perceives it, is why he does not want to be around me. I did inform him as he ages and learns about the differences of the world and he would like to see me again, I will open my door for him with no hate only a mother's love. For he is not old enough to fully understand the concept of my faith in Islam. Shall I remove the dress just to please the way others perceive him? All that teaches is give into others on what they believe no matter what you yourself REALLY believes. What would that say about my own faith?

May God help us all with our differences.

The word Islam means "submission", or the total surrender of oneself to God (Arabic: الله, Allāh).  An adherent of Islam is known as a Muslim, meaning "one who submits [to God]".
Flag muaminva July 10, 2008 11:59 PM EDT
AsSalaamu 'alaikum,
Maintaining the ties of kinship is impotant but, only sofar as one is complying with the requirements of the deen. If a persons parent, siblings, children, ect wish them to disobey Allah (SWA) then they must obey Allah (SWA) first. This is not a negotiable principle in Islam.
Flag muaminva July 11, 2008 12:09 AM EDT
AsSalaamu 'alaikum,

No matter what other people think of you proper dress and behavior is a right that you owe to Allah (SWA) and those around you. You do not have to apologize to anyone for obeying Allah (SWA) in observing the required dress code and taking time out of the day to pray.

There are few legitimate reasons why an employer may deny you your rights and in those circumstances it is probably better that you didn't work for such a company. As for illegitimate reasons you are definitely better off not working for such bigoted people.

You are too special in the eyes of Allah (SWA) to subject yourself deliberately to abuse.

May Allah (SWA) bless all those sisters with enough faith to keep to their required hijab.

Masalaamah
Flag sazaj36 July 11, 2008 8:14 AM EDT
Teenagers are notorious for "feeling ashamed" of their own parents for a number of reasons...how they dress is just one of many issues that come up. Consider that he is being a teenager about this rather than hateful towards your choice of religions etc. All teenagers are under great peer pressure and dont want to be "looked" at as strange or different or associated with strange or different in any way. Dont worry how you come off looking to other people...they are strangers and who cares what they think...right....but to a teen its a very real emotional issue...so consider his thought processes in all this. After all...you were a teenager once...yes?

Nobody said abandon hijab if thats what you believe in...but is the breakdown of your family worth it....please dont try and convince me God cares about your hair showing to the world more than your relationship with your son...that aint the God I read within the pages of the Holy Quran...just my opinion.
Flag sazaj36 July 11, 2008 8:14 AM EDT
Teenagers are notorious for "feeling ashamed" of their own parents for a number of reasons...how they dress is just one of many issues that come up. Consider that he is being a teenager about this rather than hateful towards your choice of religions etc. All teenagers are under great peer pressure and dont want to be "looked" at as strange or different or associated with strange or different in any way. Dont worry how you come off looking to other people...they are strangers and who cares what they think...right....but to a teen its a very real emotional issue...so consider his thought processes in all this. After all...you were a teenager once...yes?

Nobody said abandon hijab if thats what you believe in...but is the breakdown of your family worth it....please dont try and convince me God cares about your hair showing to the world more than your relationship with your son...that aint the God I read within the pages of the Holy Quran...just my opinion.
Flag Ceren July 11, 2008 2:14 PM EDT
[QUOTE=muaminva;617216]AsSalaamu 'alaikum,

May Allah (SWA) bless all those sisters with enough faith to keep to their required hijab.

Masalaamah[/QUOTE]

And may Allah swt bless all those brothers with enough faith to keep to their required beard ;)
Flag magi_77 July 11, 2008 2:33 PM EDT
[QUOTE=Ceren;618226]And may Allah swt bless all those brothers with enough faith to keep to their required beard ;)[/QUOTE]

What if they don't want to wear a beard?  By not wearing one does that some how make his faith less than the guy standing next to him?
Flag muaminva July 11, 2008 4:34 PM EDT
[QUOTE=Ceren;618226]And may Allah swt bless all those brothers with enough faith to keep to their required beard ;)[/QUOTE]
AsSalaamu 'alaikum,

You are correct that a beard is a stressed sunnah (highly praised and blesssed practice all should strive to follow). But, unlike proper dress (regardless of cultural trappings or styles) it is not wajib (mandatory). Even those alim who consider it wajib accept that there are some people who for various legitimate reasons cannot grow a beard.

I for one am such a person. I work with hazardous materials and must by law be able to form a tight seal on a gas mask in the case of an accidental release. Yet, even with this exemption I am currently persuing educational and training opportunities to be able to find work that would void my own exeption.

One must never stop striving to improve ones iman and practice because,  noone knows the hour of their own death and we all will be judged by the greatest and fairest of judges.
Flag Ceren July 11, 2008 5:29 PM EDT
[QUOTE=muaminva;618545]AsSalaamu 'alaikum,

You are correct that a beard is a stressed sunnah (highly praised and blesssed practice all should strive to follow). But, unlike proper dress (regardless of cultural trappings or styles) it is not wajib (mandatory). Even those alim who consider it wajib accept that there are some people who for various legitimate reasons cannot grow a beard.

I for one am such a person. I work with hazardous materials and must by law be able to form a tight seal on a gas mask in the case of an accidental release. Yet, even with this exemption I am currently persuing educational and training opportunities to be able to find work that would void my own exeption.

One must never stop striving to improve ones iman and practice because,  noone knows the hour of their own death and we all will be judged by the greatest and fairest of judges.[/QUOTE]

Actually... having a beard is wajib according to the consensus of the 4 sunni schools of thought. Now.. if you know more fiqh (or know someone that knows more fiqh) than Imam Abu Hanifa and his students, Imam Shafi'i and his students, Imam Malik and his students, Imam Ibn Hanbal and his students all together then... I would actually like to meet this person!

Someone who can't grow a beard is someone who, DOES NOT SHAVE IT, and still cannot grow it. Of course that person is excused because that person is not doing anything to shorten it.  Allah swt is the provider, not your job. And given the great amounts of jobs that are in the market, I would say that many (if not most) scholars would say that giving more priority to the dunya and your salary as opposed to Allah swt is does not exempt you from growing a beard. What if I said..."hey I have to support myself and my job is being a model so I have to dress in miniskirts. But I'm studying to change my line of job so I'm excused from dressing modestly". I don't think that would fly, would it?

The prophet pbuh said in a sahih hadith to let the beards be. I thought we're supposed to "hear and obey".

No before you jump on me, I'm not picking on you  just to pick on you, but to show you that...

There's difference of opinion on things. You seem to believe, against the consensus of the 4 madhahib, that beard is not wajib but sunnah.

However, I would not conclude that it's due to your "weak Iman" that you believe this.

The same thing happens with hijab. There ARE scholars who say that hijab is not wajib. There ARE people who believe that hijab is not obligatory and thus don't wear it. Who are you to tell them that it's because their iman is weak? Do you know what's in their hearts?

And how would you automatically conclude that it's the sister's "strong iman" that's keeping the hijab in place? I have worn hijab for so many reasons that have nothing to do with my iman! And so many women wear hijab for many reasons that have so little to do with their Iman!  (the same happens with brothers sporting beards, kufis, the whole works).

So basically I find it funny that...

Even though there's consensus on the 4 schools, that there are hadith sahih were the prophet COMMANDS to grow the beards... still people seem to be quite accepting of the fact that some people say beard is a "sunnah"

However, there's no such sahih hadith commanding women to cover their hair, or Quranic verse for that matter. However... people gasp if a woman doesn't consider is wajib.

Interesting.....

All the best,
Ceren
Flag muaminva July 11, 2008 6:27 PM EDT
AsSalaamu 'alaikum Ceren,

Thank you. I appreciate your post although i disagree with several points you made. There are multiple hadith and several ayah stipulating that a Muslimah is required to were proper clothing (including covering her hair). For a complete list please refer to any number of books or fatwas on the subject by any reputable scholar. I am aware of no tradition with in any Sunni madhhab that contadicts that opinion, although I am certain that there must be some individual scholars someplace that disagree.

The term wajib indicates that failure to do so is a sin. The most convincing work I have read on the subject indicates that the beard is highly recommended but, falls short of this classification. As far as safety being an exemption from the sunnah of growing a beard, I simply  disagree based on the evidence available and the scholars I have had access to. I am more than willing to change my view on this matter based on sound evidence and agumentation.

As far as my prayer that Allah (SWA) bless these sistetrs with strong iman so that they may observe their religious requirments, I do not comprehend how you find this offensive. I am well aware that it is only Allah (SWA) who can judge anyone for their shortcomings. That does not mean that we cannot and should not encourage piety and obedience.

Thank you again for you time and effort.

Masalaamah
Flag Ceren July 11, 2008 8:21 PM EDT
[QUOTE=muaminva;618830]
Thank you. I appreciate your post although i disagree with several points you made. There are multiple hadith and several ayah stipulating that a Muslimah is required to were proper clothing (including covering her hair). For a complete list please refer to any number of books or fatwas on the subject by any reputable scholar. I am aware of no tradition with in any Sunni madhhab that contadicts that opinion, although I am certain that there must be some individual scholars someplace that disagree. [/quote]

Then please quote here those SAHIH hadith where the prophet commands women to cover their hair. Unfortunately, all the hadiths that I have read that have a command involved (from an `usuli perspective) regarding hijab were not sahih. I'd be very interested in reading those.

And yes, I agree with you that hijab is wajib according to the consensus of the 4 madhahib (like the beard ;) ) And yes, some scholars disagree (like the beard as well).

[QUOTE=muaminva;618830]
The term wajib indicates that failure to do so is a sin. The most convincing work I have read on the subject indicates that the beard is highly recommended but, falls short of this classification. As far as safety being an exemption from the sunnah of growing a beard, I simply  disagree based on the evidence available and the scholars I have had access to. I am more than willing to change my view on this matter based on sound evidence and agumentation. [/quote]

Have you ever read any of the fiqh books of any of the 4 madhahib? Because it is indeed there. Since you don't read arabic, you could start with the english version of "Reliance of the Traveller", which is a great fiqh book to begin with (btw, I actually neglected to mention that in the shafi`i school there are 2 positions, one being that it's makrooh to shave). I also think that Kitabul Athaaris translated in english, for hanafi fiqh.

As for hadiths, there are many, but I'll just give you one on sahih Muslim:
Ibn Umar said: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Trim closely the moustache, and let the beard grow.


[QUOTE=muaminva;618830]
As far as my prayer that Allah (SWA) bless these sistetrs with strong iman so that they may observe their religious requirements, I do not comprehend how you find this offensive. I am well aware that it is only Allah (SWA) who can judge anyone for their shortcomings. That does not mean that we cannot and should not encourage piety and obedience.
[/QUOTE]

I think that brother you can't comprehend why I'm offended because you're not a sister :(  (well, alhamdulillah you're a brother).
Only if you're a sister you would understand how tiring, and OBJECTIFYING this obsession with hijab is.  I makes you feel like all you are is an object, an empty vase, a piece of meat that needs covering. It seems that for women, 100% of our obedience and of our iman goes through the hijab. Women in hijab? Good Muslim. Women with no hijab? Bad Muslim.  How shallow do we need to be as a community to judge a person by her external appearance.

The "bum" is as much awrah for men as it is for women. However I go to the mosque and I see  98% of the brothers wearing jeans (some following the "low rise" fashion) or slacks, or khakis and their shirts tuck inside, or short t-shirts. So I have to endure the unfortunate sight of their bum  and underwear while their are in rokoo` and if I'm really unfortunate I get to see their "cracks". If a woman went dressed like that... hell would break lose!!! Then all the khutbas about women's dress... how about those about men's dress????
Why don't I hear men going on and on about their modesty. After all, modesty is required for both men and women, and I can tell you that at my mosque the women do much better than men.
How many times have you heard "Masha' Allah brother you finally have decided to wear long shirts to cover your bum (awrah)!!"?? Me?  ZERO times. However, I have heard so many "Masha' Allah you're covered, blah blah".
We women are COMPLEX beings, with dreams, spiritual struggles, hearts that beat and need purifying, etc, etc. We're not just "women who need covering" . So why is everyone so into neglecting our many needs. Do you know how many of my hijab-wearing friends miss fajr?? Do you know how many pray as robots, with no presence of heart in prayer?  LOTS and LOTS and LOTS. Do you know how many miss prayers here and there? LOTS and LOTS and LOTS. Do you know how many of my hijabi acquaintances have gone on hajj?? ZERO, even though they have money to buy fancy cars, nice clothes, etc, etc. Do you know how many hijabis do not take zakat seriously and juggle to give as little as possible? LOTS! And these are the pillars of Islam!!!
Do you know how many hijabi women I've met that are mean, merciless, judgmental, angry-looking, and that have scared converts away? LOTS.

So if instead of being so shallow and keep hammering about hijab like it's the be-all end-all of a Muslimah's worship we would focus on other even more important things, we would be better as a Muslim community. If we would focus on establishing the pillars not only in our bodies but with our hearts, things would be better. And once our hearts are aligned to Allah swt, then all the other questions would be automatically answered, because we would know automatically what is right and what is wrong.

Sorry for my ranting but I'm just so tired of it.

All the best,
Ceren
Flag muaminva July 11, 2008 10:33 PM EDT
AsSalaamu 'alaikum Ceren,

Thank you for the recommendations on the books. I will endeaver to find these titles and may Allah (SWA) bless you for your efforts.

I typically refer to Bukhari and Muslim and occasionally the compilation Bulugh Al-Maram regarding hadith since I have them at home. Tafsir Ibn Kathir for the same reason. For fiqh I usually reference Fiqh Us-Sunnah and Arkan al-Islam wal-Iman and follow up with the scholars I may have access to at the time to ensure that I understand some of the more difficult issues of evidence.

As far as any perceived disrespect or obsessiveness you detected in my postings on this subject I apologize profusely. I am well aware of this double standard and gave a khutbah about it 3 Fridays ago at the beginning of summer.

Proper dress and modesty is a 2-way street. Men and women have a responsibility to aid each other by dressing and behaving modestly as well as lowering the gaze to avoid temptation and show respect. All people have a right to be treated with a certain basic level of respect regardless of their dress and conduct. But we also have a responsibility to set a good example for others and encourage them to grow in faith, knowledge and actions.

Again, my apologies if my tone or manner of writing caused offense or seemed in any way belittling.

Masalaamah
Flag Ceren July 11, 2008 11:35 PM EDT
[QUOTE=muaminva;619265]AsSalaamu 'alaikum Ceren,

Again, my apologies if my tone or manner of writing caused offense or seemed in any way belittling.

Masalaamah[/QUOTE]

Wa'alaykum salam brother.

No apologies needed. It was you who was patient enough to read through all my ranting and answer me nicely. Thank you very much. May Allah swt reward you for your adab.

All the best,
Ceren
Flag Miraj July 12, 2008 3:27 PM EDT

muaminva wrote:

AsSalaamu 'alaikum Ceren,

Thank you. I appreciate your post although i disagree with several points you made. There are multiple hadith and several ayah stipulating that a Muslimah is required to were proper clothing (including covering her hair). For a complete list please refer to any number of books or fatwas on the subject by any reputable scholar. I am aware of no tradition with in any Sunni madhhab that contadicts that opinion, although I am certain that there must be some individual scholars someplace that disagree.

. . .

Masalaamah



There is no dress code in the Quran.  There is no command there to cover the hair.  There is not one reference using the word "hijab" that addresses clothing.  The Quran does say:

7.26 O ye Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness,- that is the best. Such are among the Signs of God, that they may receive admonition!

Please post an ayat that refers to hijab as proper dress, and commands covering the hair.  From that, all other demands regarding a particular mode of dress will flow.

Thank you in advance.

Salaam

Flag Idbc July 13, 2008 7:34 PM EDT
"7.26 O ye Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness,- that is the best. Such are among the Signs of God, that they may receive admonition!"

Could the problem be with the vagueness of this ayat?

It is my understanding that the Quran is supposed  to give guidance to Muslims.   
That the Ahadith-Sunnah is supposed to provide the details that are not explictly stated in the Quran.
That fiqh is the opinions, commentary and decisions of qualified Islamic Jurists. 

I can easily understand that covering the genitles and the breasts would come under "cover your shame.

But what I find more difficult to fathom is the covering of a woman's hair.   Perhaps it is because I am used  to seeing a woman's hair-shame(?) uncovered.  A woman's "might" look nice, but I have never been aroused sexually by seeing a  woman's hair, no matter how attractive it was made  to look. 

Here is another thing I can't quite grasp. 

From what I understand, one of the purposes of hijab is to prevent men from being.....tempted by the shame-sexuality of a woman's body.   

Now I can see the "logic" of this if the woman is beautiful-sexually appealing.

But I have seen women wearing hijab,  who look more beautiful-sexually appealing wearing a hijab, then they would if they were naked. 

A sixty year-old, three hundred pound woman looks more appealing with the hijab on then she would  with it off.

However perhaps in the case of ugly  woman, wearing or even pretty woman, the purpose is not to cover her shame, but to show her devotion, or her piety to Allah-Islam?
Flag Miraj July 15, 2008 1:50 AM EDT
The purpose of hijab, in the context of this discussion, is to serve as a barrier to encourage proper behavior between the sexes.  Beauty is a social construct, and, as such, is subjective, and not the focus of the directives regarding hijab.  What it is to convey is modesty for both men and women, not just women.  How it is interpreted has varied over time and across cultures.

In fact, during the early ummah, the awra' of a slave woman was the same as a man's; she was to be covered only between her navel and her knees.  Free women are warned in the Quran to throw theur cloaks over themselves so they will be recognized and not molested, as a slave woman could be.  The Muslim rulers upheld this tradition, despite the call for modest covering.  In their society, there was an immediate need to easily distinguish slaves from free woman, and that worked for them. 

Fiqh is the interpetation of the Word into practice.  The Quran itself is only about 10% legislative.  Fiqh allows Muslims to apply directives and reason to the tradition and social norms of a particular society.  It has always been necessary to take the needs into consideration, and that is why variations exist in fiqh law from school to school.

These variations set a precedent that can and must be extended to Muslims in the west, allowing us to determine how to interpret ayat and where to place our emphasis when discerning law. 

Salaam
Flag Jahdea July 16, 2008 8:17 PM EDT
To wear the hijab is to be blessed by allah. When i wear it i feel good because I know that men will not look at me with thoughts that are impure. " for allah knows all that you do and those who think unpure thoughts will abide in the fire". I have respect from all that i come in contact with. If your boss is so close minded then maybe you should let the job go. It is for  your heart to determine. But to take the oath you must be sure it's right for you. For me there was no other way. The quran is the first book that i have ever felt right with. I could understand what was expected of me for the first time. Pray for guidence from allah he will reveal to you what is right.
Let no one say the hijab is just a piece of clothing, it is not! It is beauty and purity personified. And those who take the veil are blessed. You will know what is right. Blessings sister. Peace be with you. Jahdea
Flag Miraj July 20, 2008 1:04 AM EDT
Well, Jahdea, you're definitely entitled to your opinion, but not all of us feel as strongly about the "magical" powers of hijab as you do,
Flag taqiyy July 20, 2008 1:16 PM EDT
I work in an office dominated by Republicans that pretty much advocate bombing Iraq and Afghanistan back into the stone age.  During elections, some of them have actually questioned me and others who walk in the door with an "I've voted" sticker, just to make sure we've voted the correct way. 

But it hasn't stopped me from growing my beard long (also not mentioned in the Qur'an, but most scholars agree at least some form of a beard is obigatory) and from wearing my kufi (Islamic skull cap).

Why? It's part of my identity.  Yeah, I have ball caps that indicate to people I'm a software developer and other things, but that is just the stuff I know.  My beard and kufi tell people what I stand for (as do my actions).

I've seen women take off their scarf under this kind of pressure, and I've seen some nobly tell themselves, "if I compromise on this, then what next?"

Obviously, this has to be your decision.  But if you want to wear the hijab, and I believe it is considered necessary, I don't know why you should compromise your principles.  Others face this kind of thing every day - including myself - so you're not alone.

Does the office have an HRS department?  If so, utilize that resource.  Also, contact CAIR for advice if things really get tough, as well as the ACLU.  They can give you free legal advocacy if needed.

We're not going to be accepted if we just act like sheep.  The Jews tried that and it didn't work.  They tried to assimilate  and assimilate, and still they weren't respected or accepted.

So, wear your identity with pride.
Flag LMuhammad August 27, 2008 12:43 PM EDT
[QUOTE=Miraj;636622]Well, Jahdea, you're definitely entitled to your opinion, but not all of us feel as strongly about the "magical" powers of hijab as you do,[/QUOTE]
You are so mean and hatelful in your posts. Everyone is entiteld to their opinion.  All of your posts in my opinion are rude and that's not how we should interact with each other.
Flag ProfessorGoatPellets August 27, 2008 10:14 PM EDT
'The biggest veil between our selves and God is our own ego' - so what right does anyone have to dictate to their employers what they will and won't wear? 

Why place your views above the views of other people? 

Goat
Flag ProfessorGoatPellets August 27, 2008 10:25 PM EDT
[QUOTE=Miraj;625532]In fact, during the early ummah, the awra' of a slave woman was the same as a man's; she was to be covered only between her navel and her knees.  Free women are warned in the Quran to throw theur cloaks over themselves so they will be recognized and not molested, as a slave woman could be.  The Muslim rulers upheld this tradition, despite the call for modest covering.  In their society, there was an immediate need to easily distinguish slaves from free woman, and that worked for them.[/QUOTE]

So what provision is there in Islam to prevent the men from performing sex attacks?

... or is it just the responsibility of the woman to be constantly on the defensive?

The overwhelming majority of Muslim men that I know practice very little (if any) sexual restraint.

Goat
Flag Wmdkitty October 21, 2008 10:53 PM EDT

witness22 wrote:

Asalamu alaikum. I hope I'm posting this in the right place.

I am seriously considering taking Islam as my faith. I've only been studying it for a few weeks, and there's many questions I still need answered first, but no other religion has captured both my heart and mind the way Islam has. I pray at the correct times whenever I can, or as close to it as I can get, and even if I don't convert I find myself loving the hijab and Islamic ways of dressing. But I've discovered that I work in an environment with deep-running prejudices and fears.

I told my boss that I wanted to wear the hijab to work one day to see how customers would react (and secretly to see how my coworkers would react). My conservative Christian boss was shocked at first (no one has any idea that I'm considering converting) and almost said no, but eventually agreed, thinking I was doing it as a social experiment since I want to go into theology. But he said I could only do it on a day when the store owner wasn't there, because if the owner saw me in the hijab he would "blow up". When I asked why, my boss told me that it was because the owner was a "good, faithful Christian" - a very complimentary, twisted synonym for "intolerant" in this situation. In the process of talking about me doing this "experiment" my boss also told me that there was actually a rule against it. Well, actually the rule is against wearing hats, but the rule says "no headgear", and now that I've brought this up "headgear" is now being interpreted as including hijab - and it was made very clear to me that this is the one and only time I will be allowed to do this "experiment", and that if it starts causing any problems with customers, I am to immediately take it off (although I think my coworkers are already reacting much more than the customers will).

So I'm faced with a dilemma: I want to wear the hijab! Even if I don't convert, I think I want to wear it. But now I could get fired, not on the basis of my religion, but because I'm wearing a headscarf. Do they really think that if I put a piece of fabric on my head it makes me a different person than I was yesterday? No! It is only an external expression seen today of what was already in my heart yesterday, and many days before that. But it has been made clear to me that these men I work with are extremely conservative Christians who want the entire world to be a reflection of themselves and their values, and I'm already forced to sit all day and listen to them vent their prejudices, and there is no room in their hearts for tolerance.

Part of me wants to start wearing the hijab just to get myself fired so I don't have to listen to their hate anymore. I took this job out of desperation, and I don't like the work or the people I work with. But to get the job I had to give my word that I would work there for a year. It's only been three months. As wrong as all this is, I'm not sure it would make it right to break my promise. It takes a month to train someone for this job, sometimes longer, so if I quit during the middle of the busy season I would be leaving them in a lurch. Part of me has no problem with that - if they don't want to work with a muslim, I don't want to work with them (really I'm rather afraid to), and I'd rather quit than have them looking for ways to fire me. I know that if I did convert they wouldn't allow me to pray at work - I had to fight with them and almost pass out just to get a lunch break! But on the other hand, the owner's son has cancer, and I have heard him crying to God to know why his son has to suffer, and I don't want to add to his burdens by breaking my word and putting him in a hard place.

So, the dilemma is: my hijab, or my job? Please give me advice!

Peace and blessings upon you all.




That sounds like a heavy decision. As a non-Muslim and non-Christian (I'm a Witch, if anyone wants to know), I'm looking at this from a whole different perspective.

You signed a contract for one year of service to this person. You're oath-bound to complete that service.

Your boss cannot legally fire you for wearing hijab, "god-fearing Christian" or not.

Ultimately, it comes down to you, and what you decide. If your heart tells you that hijab is right for you, then wear it.

Flag Wmdkitty October 21, 2008 10:53 PM EDT

witness22 wrote:

Asalamu alaikum. I hope I'm posting this in the right place.

I am seriously considering taking Islam as my faith. I've only been studying it for a few weeks, and there's many questions I still need answered first, but no other religion has captured both my heart and mind the way Islam has. I pray at the correct times whenever I can, or as close to it as I can get, and even if I don't convert I find myself loving the hijab and Islamic ways of dressing. But I've discovered that I work in an environment with deep-running prejudices and fears.

I told my boss that I wanted to wear the hijab to work one day to see how customers would react (and secretly to see how my coworkers would react). My conservative Christian boss was shocked at first (no one has any idea that I'm considering converting) and almost said no, but eventually agreed, thinking I was doing it as a social experiment since I want to go into theology. But he said I could only do it on a day when the store owner wasn't there, because if the owner saw me in the hijab he would "blow up". When I asked why, my boss told me that it was because the owner was a "good, faithful Christian" - a very complimentary, twisted synonym for "intolerant" in this situation. In the process of talking about me doing this "experiment" my boss also told me that there was actually a rule against it. Well, actually the rule is against wearing hats, but the rule says "no headgear", and now that I've brought this up "headgear" is now being interpreted as including hijab - and it was made very clear to me that this is the one and only time I will be allowed to do this "experiment", and that if it starts causing any problems with customers, I am to immediately take it off (although I think my coworkers are already reacting much more than the customers will).

So I'm faced with a dilemma: I want to wear the hijab! Even if I don't convert, I think I want to wear it. But now I could get fired, not on the basis of my religion, but because I'm wearing a headscarf. Do they really think that if I put a piece of fabric on my head it makes me a different person than I was yesterday? No! It is only an external expression seen today of what was already in my heart yesterday, and many days before that. But it has been made clear to me that these men I work with are extremely conservative Christians who want the entire world to be a reflection of themselves and their values, and I'm already forced to sit all day and listen to them vent their prejudices, and there is no room in their hearts for tolerance.

Part of me wants to start wearing the hijab just to get myself fired so I don't have to listen to their hate anymore. I took this job out of desperation, and I don't like the work or the people I work with. But to get the job I had to give my word that I would work there for a year. It's only been three months. As wrong as all this is, I'm not sure it would make it right to break my promise. It takes a month to train someone for this job, sometimes longer, so if I quit during the middle of the busy season I would be leaving them in a lurch. Part of me has no problem with that - if they don't want to work with a muslim, I don't want to work with them (really I'm rather afraid to), and I'd rather quit than have them looking for ways to fire me. I know that if I did convert they wouldn't allow me to pray at work - I had to fight with them and almost pass out just to get a lunch break! But on the other hand, the owner's son has cancer, and I have heard him crying to God to know why his son has to suffer, and I don't want to add to his burdens by breaking my word and putting him in a hard place.

So, the dilemma is: my hijab, or my job? Please give me advice!

Peace and blessings upon you all.




That sounds like a heavy decision. As a non-Muslim and non-Christian (I'm a Witch, if anyone wants to know), I'm looking at this from a whole different perspective.

You signed a contract for one year of service to this person. You're oath-bound to complete that service.

Your boss cannot legally fire you for wearing hijab, "god-fearing Christian" or not.

Ultimately, it comes down to you, and what you decide. If your heart tells you that hijab is right for you, then wear it.

Flag GIMS October 22, 2008 7:52 AM EDT
Witness22

I will give you a little real life advice based on my own experience.

I started studying Islam 8 years ago. I took Shahada in 2001 and w/in 6 months was wearing hijab full time. By mid 2002, I took it off and learned to despise it.

When I put it on, my family was weirded out by it. When I took it off, my husband was angry. That little piece of cloth was so powerful. It had the ability to evoke all kinds of emotions from every which way. However, the issue was that it had no power for me. In my heart of hearts, I simply didn't believe it was required by God. That made it very, very difficult to wear and is why I ended up taking it off.

Something which should have been so simple became so hard.

Some might argue that that first step of removing it is what caused me to turn my back on Islam. There could be some truth to that.

However, here I am, 8 years later back at square one. My heart has always been pulled toward Islam. I now live in an area w/ no Muslims anywhere near and I've never felt a stronger pull. Now my heart and my mind are focused on the important aspects of the religion - not bogged down in the details.

Where's the "advice" in all this, you ask? My advice is: Don't take hijab lightly. If you're going to wear it, wear it w/ your whole heart. Making it about "sticking it to the man" isn't going to work. It's your spiritual life - no one else's. What you wear isn't near as important as what's in your heart.
Flag Tmarie64 October 22, 2008 8:27 AM EDT

GIMS wrote:

Witness22
My advice is: Don't take hijab lightly. If you're going to wear it, wear it w/ your whole heart. Making it about "sticking it to the man" isn't going to work. It's your spiritual life - no one else's. What you wear isn't near as important as what's in your heart.


Excellent advice.  Don't wear it because you're trying to prove a point.. Wear it because it means everything to you.

If it means enough you'll quit any job that says... "It's the job or the hijab"... I left a job because my boss said that I "needed" to go to her church because everyone in the office went there.   When I didn't show up that weekend things were tense the next week.  It would have been easy to just show up.  But my faith means more to me than a paycheck.

Flag GraceSA October 22, 2008 1:06 PM EDT
Hi GIMS-  Didn't you used to be here long, long ago on old B-Net?
Hi again!
Grace
Flag GIMS October 22, 2008 7:58 PM EDT
[QUOTE=GraceSA;842616]Hi GIMS-  Didn't you used to be here long, long ago on old B-Net?
Hi again!
Grace[/QUOTE]


Yep, that's me. It has been a long, long time since I've posted here. It's nice to see a lot of familiar names. Hope all is well w/ you :)
Flag visio October 22, 2008 10:58 PM EDT
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Assalamualaikum,

When talking about all these hijab things we see almost everyone quoting on this particular verse -  24 : 31.  And what comes out of that are a bunch of interpretations/tafsir/translations which no one can deny it's inevitibility.   But people forget to interpret the last line in the verse that says (from Hillali/Mukhsin Khan - Medina) [COLOR="Red"]"And all of you beg ALLAH to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful"[/COLOR].

The spirit echoed by that last line is that all terms outlined in the verse regarding the dress code, is nothing but an ideal one that one has to work in a life time.  It is a small sin just like lust, anger, hatred, jealousy, pride and greed are.  Everyone, including any of those Ulama of Fiqh living has to work themselves out on these. In matured Islamic Communitiies - countries like KSA, Iran, Egypt etc. had developed the code, by reasons of evolution in their history, very well and good.  Alhamdulliah.   ALLAH has always stated in the Al-Quran that the message is not to be a burden upon people.  Everything has to be in stages and according individual capacity to accept it -which goes by the dictate of time.   Even the core process of our return to Him works on that principle.  We were all born naked, after all.  My wife never wore a headscarf other than on occassion of religious function, during the early days of our marriage.   And there were backbiting going among some of the ladies in an all-Muslim office where she was The Boss.  Over a time she started to put it on regularly until to-day as part of her dress code at the office, although she still has the freedom to go without it.   I guess it is just age is catching on.

Someone mentioned that the similar type of dress code pre-existed before Islam.  That's true.   In all aspects there is nothing new in the Al-Quran/Islam.  It was revealed to complete and perfect the details and made clear.   All the why?s and how how?s traces back to the same Divine explanation.

The verse revealed as intended and there is an explanantion for it.  It'll take on quite a detail.   It is quite the same as trying to answer a question - and I am not to sure how many of posters here are aware of.  At all a Muslim funeral rite I have been to, in the Last Sermon (Supplication/Du'a Talqin) that an Imam would recite, the deceased is always adressed as such and such name, irrespective of male or female person as ...... daughter of such and such name......... the father's name is never mentioned.... why?

I have just started a post in the Islam Debate Board on a thread titled "Is the Al-Quran Complete and Perfect".  I thought I just continue posting my input here in another thread using the same title.   The objective is to kickstart a discussion on the bigger picture of the Al-Quran involving the treasury of verses in it,  that many have bypassed and neglected, such as

[COLOR="MediumTurquoise"]Al-An'am 6 : 38   There is not a moving creature on earth, nor a bird that flies with its two wings, but are communities like you.   We have neglected nothing in the Book, then unto their lord they all shall be gathered.[/COLOR]

So as far as the question asked in the OP is concerned, my personal opinion is, stick to the job as first priority and the Hijab, allows time to grow into it and as the last line in the related Quranic verse 24 : 31 said [COLOR="Red"]"......And all of you beg ALLAH to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful."[/COLOR]
....And just as for you all to know.......... there are other things of value that are more important in Islam other than this petty issue of .....dress.  Be decent .... that's all is needed. 

Wassalamualaikum wrhmtllh.

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Flag Ratchet October 31, 2008 5:46 PM EDT
Personally I say don't wear it. I have been wearing it for over 15 years but in the last three years don't wear it correctly, so that a person can now see my ears, and neck and my hair tends to stick out. I don't care. I also wear short sleeve shirts and sandles without socks.

I do not agree with the reasons for the Hijab, I hate it, and bend the rules of it whenever I can. The only reason I have not taken it off completely is because I still live with my parents.

I do not want to take it off because I want to show off my body or any of that but it is completely impractical, in my opinion sexist and it less a protection but more a gilded cage.

I know most people here will not agree with me. I am not even fully a Muslim anymore but consider myself an agnostic. I am just giving my own personal opinion
Flag Tmarie64 November 9, 2008 9:58 PM EST

Ratchet wrote:

Personally I say don't wear it. I have been wearing it for over 15 years but in the last three years don't wear it correctly, so that a person can now see my ears, and neck and my hair tends to stick out. I don't care. I also wear short sleeve shirts and sandles without socks.

I do not agree with the reasons for the Hijab, I hate it, and bend the rules of it whenever I can. The only reason I have not taken it off completely is because I still live with my parents.

I do not want to take it off because I want to show off my body or any of that but it is completely impractical, in my opinion sexist and it less a protection but more a gilded cage.

I know most people here will not agree with me. I am not even fully a Muslim anymore but consider myself an agnostic. I am just giving my own personal opinion


I don't disagree with you.   I've always thought it was sexist and unfair.  Punishing you because you DARED be born a woman.  Idiots...it's the MAN's fault that the girls are born....
Anyway...  I appreciate the respect you have for, and show, your parents.  Wearing something you hate and disagree with out of respect for them.

Flag shemarienp November 25, 2008 12:04 PM EST
You don't like your job. That is the basic problem. So quit your job if you can find another. The hijab and Islam appears to have nothing to do with it.

Now if you want to wear hijab because you feel it is an obedience that you offer to God, then that is the right thing to do. But then it is not wise to 'test the waters'. Just preserve your integrity and unapologetically wear it.

If wearing it is all about you doing what you feel God wishes you to do, then it is the right thing to do, certainly. If it's about something else, then think long and hard first and make sure your motives are pure. Honestly, this is just a question of integrity more than anything else.
Flag muslimartist March 15, 2009 10:10 AM EDT

Asalam Aleikum!


Islam is not meant to be a burden or hardship to follow and adhere to.  If wearing a hijab is going to prevent you from earning a livelihood to support your family and put food on the table and keep a roof over your head, then it is permissible to not wear it.  Just dress conservatively in other ways.


And remember, hijab is more than just the scarf.  It is also what is on the inside... how you act, your adab, speech, demeanor and treatment of yourself and others... these are far more impotant than the mere external appearance of a headscarf.


We are living in times of harship where being a believer, albeit a practicing one, is looked down on.  Sometimes, external sacrifices are needed to preserve the internal ones.


 


All the best sister, and may Allah make it easy for you:-)

Flag Globalnomad May 19, 2009 1:59 PM EDT

Re: "hijab or job", here are my 2p


- only wear hijab if you're convinced (it's not a uniform)


- hijab is not 'women covering hair', but BOTH genders wearing modest clothes and showing modest character (avoiding shouting, swearing, arrogance, greed etc)


- being a Muslim (woman) is so much more than wearing hijab, esp. emphasis on personal relation with God and submitting to God's will. Take it step by step.


- if boss/ colleagues are narrowminded, would you want to work with them, with or without hijab?


That's my 2p. In peace, globalnomad (a happy hijabi convert)

Flag docwitchy May 21, 2009 8:43 AM EDT

I see this is the energizer topic, it just keeps on going and going. So I'll jump in again.


We have hijabis and non-hijabi Muslimahs at my hospital. Nobody cares one way or the other (not of course in scrubs or an OR). Most of us who are Muslims don't wear the hijab (I only wear it for going to the masjid or specific, religious things) but one of my favorite anesthesiologists is a hijabi sister when she's not working. What someones religion is does not figure into hiring decisions (some of which I make since I'm chief of emergency surgery), and it is understood that the few days anyone of any faith may want off due to his or her faith will be granted. On Christmas eve my emergency surgery team is almost always entirely non-christian and on EID we Muslims are not at work, etc and so forth.


My opinion is that as long as the hijab doesn't interfere with the job, and that applies to very few jobs though mine happens to be one of them, it should never be an issue. That it unfortunately sometimes is represents discrimination that needs to be confronted and legally fought.


I don't wear the hijab except as stated above. I like wearing short skirts, running shorts, bikinis at the pool or beach, and my hair flying free when I run in the mornings. Nobody is going to tell me I have to wear the hijab. BUT, nobody had better try to tell me I cannot either!


Whether or not we sisters are 'hijabis' we need to support all who are!


Salaam,


Mariah

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