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Switch to Forum Live View If there is no real Government by God, why did Jesus say he and co-rulers would sit on thrones?
2 years ago  ::  Oct 15, 2015 - 7:43AM #1
Brainscramble
Posts: 11,609
Many people have objected that there is no real government by God.  Yet the Bible strongly indicates that God DOES have a government, and it will influence the earth in a big way.  What did Jesus mean when he said to his Apostles:

"And Jesus said to them, 'Truly I say to you, that you who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.'" (Matt.19:28, NASB) ?

Doesn't it look like Jesus will be heading up a government?



To our almighty God and Father (of Christ and ourselves):  "Show them you alone are JEHOVAH, the Most High over all the earth."  (Psalm 83:18)
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2 years ago  ::  Oct 15, 2015 - 10:42AM #2
Rgurley4
Posts: 11,795

throne...Greek 2362...thronos...
B.assigned in the NT to kings, hence, kingly power or royalty
i.metaphhor: to God, the "governor" of the world/universe
ii.to the Messiah, Christ, the partner and assistant in the divine administration
a.hence divine power belonging to Christ


A "throne" is NOT a "government" nor does it imply one!


to government...Hebrew 4437...malkuw (Aramaic)...A.royalty, kingship, kingly authority


Romans 13(NASB)...Paul to believers: Be Subject to Government


1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities.
For there is no authority except from God, and
those which exist are established by God.


to the governing ...Greek 5242...hyperechō...to have a hold over one
 
authorities...Greek 1849...exousia...
the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege);
the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed)


Revelation 20(NASB): the ONLY earthly "reign" of Jesus the Divine Messaiah after the Second Coming in Jerusalem: Millenium!
4 Then I saw thrones, and they (12 apostles?) sat on them, and judgment was given to them...and they (dead in Christ) came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the "first resurrection". 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the "second death" (lake of fire) has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 15, 2015 - 11:08AM #3
Utilyan
Posts: 7,300

Oct 15, 2015 -- 7:43AM, Brainscramble wrote:

Many people have objected that there is no real government by God.  Yet the Bible strongly indicates that God DOES have a government, and it will influence the earth in a big way.  What did Jesus mean when he said to his Apostles:

"And Jesus said to them, 'Truly I say to you, that you who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.'" (Matt.19:28, NASB) ?

Doesn't it look like Jesus will be heading up a government?







I want to point out first off the side,    He said twelve, does that mean Judas Iscariot will be on the throne.     He was there being told this.


Maybe Jesus should have said eleven?


john 19


10So Pilate said to Him, “You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?” 11Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”


 


John 3


27John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven.


 


 


 


No matter what you think is going on,  GOD is the BOSS.


 

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 15, 2015 - 11:38AM #4
Iwantamotto
Posts: 9,234

Why thrones?  Why the royal imagery?  Why not a business conference table with Jesus doing the Powerpoint?

Knock and the door shall open.  It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.
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2 years ago  ::  Oct 15, 2015 - 12:46PM #5
Rgurley4
Posts: 11,795

Jesus paraphrased: "Knock and the door shall open


You: It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.


Me: I don't. It is jokingly sacrireligious.


Revelation 3:20 (NASB)
Behold, I stand at the door and knock;
if anyone hears My voice and opens the door,
I will come in to him and will dine with him,
and he with Me.

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 15, 2015 - 12:48PM #6
Jenandew7
Posts: 15,945

Oct 15, 2015 -- 7:43AM, Brainscramble wrote:

Many people have objected that there is no real government by God.  Yet the Bible strongly indicates that God DOES have a government, and it will influence the earth in a big way.  What did Jesus mean when he said to his Apostles:

"And Jesus said to them, 'Truly I say to you, that you who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.'" (Matt.19:28, NASB) ?

Doesn't it look like Jesus will be heading up a government?





The kingdom of Heaven is already and has been ever since Christ was among us and even before since John the Baptist also preached it.


And, as I repeatedly point out, he said, "My kingdom is not of this world" to Pilate.  He said it in present tense as though it was concurrent with this one. 


He said even prostitutes and tax gatherers were entering the kingdom of God because they listened to John the Baptist and did as he told them.


And I've suggested that you read all that Jesus said about it in the Gospels.


Is it literally a government with a king, if you will, like the governments in this world?  Of course not.  There is no language to express the things that are not of this world so metaphors are relied on. 


So, through faith we are all ONE in Christ Jesus.  How exactly does that work?  Christ is the head, we are the body of Christ?   How does that work? 


I'm with IWAM.  Why wouldn't a board room be just as apt a description, with Jesus using Power Point? 

If you pour yourself out for the hungry and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then shall your light rise in the darkness and your gloom be as the noonday. --Isaiah 58:10
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2 years ago  ::  Oct 15, 2015 - 12:51PM #7
Rgurley4
Posts: 11,795

And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.


11+ 1 = 12. Judas I. was never a messenger of God.
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2 years ago  ::  Oct 15, 2015 - 4:16PM #8
Utilyan
Posts: 7,300

Oct 15, 2015 -- 12:51PM, Rgurley4 wrote:



And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.


11+ 1 = 12. Judas I. was never a messenger of God.




Same chapter:


17“For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry.”


 


 


He was most definately a apostle  even recieved his share in this ministry.


 


 


25to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.”


 


Judas fell.   He turned aside his ministry and apostleship that he certainly had.   He could have never dropped it.....if he never had it.


 


There would no place to occupy without the fall of Judas.   If he never was a messenger of God, no one would be occupying his place since he never had a place.


 


Scripture is quite clear.   Judas was a disciple (which has its set of requirements) and apostle (which have all the requirements of bishop/bishoprick).


 


Requirements Jesus did not ignore:


1 timothy 3


 1It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. 4He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5(but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), 6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. 7And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.


 


Titus 1


 


 7For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, 8but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, 9holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.


 


 


For JESUS to rightfully select Judas to be apostle.    Judas would be required to be blameless and meeting all above criteria.     


 


It would have been sacrilidge for christ to choose a child of satan for this position.


 


 


Furthermore Had he always been child of satan,  there is no betrayal.    Betrayal means he was a disciple of christ,  spiritual family of Jesus Christ.


 


An enemy who you are at war with cannot betray you,  betrayal comes from someone on your own team.

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 15, 2015 - 7:40PM #9
Brainscramble
Posts: 11,609

Oct 15, 2015 -- 10:42AM, Rgurley4 wrote:


throne...Greek 2362...thronos...
B.assigned in the NT to kings, hence, kingly power or royalty
i.metaphhor: to God, the "governor" of the world/universe
ii.to the Messiah, Christ, the partner and assistant in the divine administration
a.hence divine power belonging to Christ



*****Yes.



A "throne" is NOT a "government" nor does it imply one!




*****It sounds like you are contradicting what you just posted, above.  And I believe that a "throne" very definitely implies a government.




to government...Hebrew 4437...malkuw (Aramaic)...A.royalty, kingship, kingly authority




*****Yes.  So how does God's Kingdom NOT actually be a government?






Romans 13(NASB)...Paul to believers: Be Subject to Government


1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities.
For there is no authority except from God, and
those which exist are established by God.


to the governing ...Greek 5242...hyperechō...to have a hold over one
 
authorities...Greek 1849...exousia...
the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege);
the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed)



*****Your point against me escapes me.



Revelation 20(NASB): the ONLY earthly "reign" of Jesus the Divine Messaiah after the Second Coming in Jerusalem: Millenium!
4 Then I saw thrones, and they (12 apostles?) sat on them, and judgment was given to them...and they (dead in Christ) came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the "first resurrection". 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the "second death" (lake of fire) has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.




*****Yes, and wouldn't that be a government?  Isn't ruling, or, reigning what someone does in a government?







To our almighty God and Father (of Christ and ourselves):  "Show them you alone are JEHOVAH, the Most High over all the earth."  (Psalm 83:18)
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2 years ago  ::  Oct 15, 2015 - 7:44PM #10
Brainscramble
Posts: 11,609


Oct 15, 2015 -- 11:08AM, Utilyan wrote:


Oct 15, 2015 -- 7:43AM, Brainscramble wrote:

Many people have objected that there is no real government by God.  Yet the Bible strongly indicates that God DOES have a government, and it will influence the earth in a big way.  What did Jesus mean when he said to his Apostles:

"And Jesus said to them, 'Truly I say to you, that you who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.'" (Matt.19:28, NASB) ?

Doesn't it look like Jesus will be heading up a government?







I want to point out first off the side,    He said twelve, does that mean Judas Iscariot will be on the throne.     He was there being told this.



*****No, he was replaced by Matthias. (Acts 1:24-26)




Maybe Jesus should have said eleven?


john 19


10So Pilate said to Him, “You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?” 11Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”


 


John 3


27John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven.


 


 


 


No matter what you think is going on,  GOD is the BOSS.




*****Of course he is.


 





To our almighty God and Father (of Christ and ourselves):  "Show them you alone are JEHOVAH, the Most High over all the earth."  (Psalm 83:18)
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