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2 years ago  ::  Sep 27, 2015 - 4:29PM #1
Hmmm
Posts: 5,020

Hi. I wanted to ask what the atheist arguments were in association with the alleged 'miraculous powers' associated with the Bible, such as prophecies and miracles, etc. that theists use as proof that their faith and their sacred texts come from God.

Thank you in advance for any answers that you might have.

The truth, the whole truth...and nothing but the truth?
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 27, 2015 - 10:43PM #2
christine3
Posts: 9,274

The answer would depend on the atheist and you know me and what I think, and I don't think you want that kind of an answer.

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 27, 2015 - 11:05PM #3
Blü
Posts: 26,191

Hmm


Magic is the power to alter reality independently of the rules of physics, frequently by wishing.


Miracles are a subset of magic.


Well-known practitioners of magic include An, Osiris, Yahweh, Zeus, Dionusos, Jesus, Simon Magus, Nicolas Flamel, John Dee, Michel de Nostredame, Count Dracula, Edgar Cayce, Padre Pio, Gandalf, Captain Marvel and of course Dumbledore.



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2 years ago  ::  Sep 28, 2015 - 12:30AM #4
Hmmm
Posts: 5,020

Sep 27, 2015 -- 10:43PM, christine3 wrote:


The answer would depend on the atheist and you know me and what I think, and I don't think you want that kind of an answer.



Actually, Christine...go for it. Just as long as it's in the context of how atheists refute theists' claims that miraculous powers prove the authenticity of their gods and their sacred texts.

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 28, 2015 - 12:38AM #5
Hmmm
Posts: 5,020

Sep 27, 2015 -- 11:05PM, Blü wrote:


Hmm


Magic is the power to alter reality independently of the rules of physics, frequently by wishing.


Miracles are a subset of magic.


Well-known practitioners of magic include An, Osiris, Yahweh, Zeus, Dionusos, Jesus, Simon Magus, Nicolas Flamel, John Dee, Michel de Nostredame, Count Dracula, Edgar Cayce, Padre Pio, Gandalf, Captain Marvel and of course Dumbledore.



Thank you, Blü, but do you think that any of these 'practitioners of magic' who are not considered works of fiction, such as Yahweh, Jesus, or Simon Magus, actually performed magic or miraculous feats? After all, I heard that Michel de Nostredame(Nostradamus) told some pretty good prophecies:


www.businessinsider.com/predictions-of-n...

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 28, 2015 - 3:24AM #6
christine3
Posts: 9,274

Sep 28, 2015 -- 12:30AM, Hmmm wrote:


Sep 27, 2015 -- 10:43PM, christine3 wrote:


The answer would depend on the atheist and you know me and what I think, and I don't think you want that kind of an answer.



Actually, Christine...go for it. Just as long as it's in the context of how atheists refute theists' claims that miraculous powers prove the authenticity of their gods and their sacred texts.




Well, as an example, I was pretty surprised this evening when watching a documentary about the Exodus. Archeologists have uncovered a city underneath the city of Ramesses that pushes the Exodus 400 years earlier than it says in the Bible. However, the beginning of the documentary starts out with an over the top statement: The Exodus proves God.


How can the Exodus have anything to do with a god, or prove a god?


Maybe Christians think that way because the Bible story makes it seem like a god orchestrated everything so that Moses' people would be set free by the Pharoah. That's the way the story is told. All the plagues, everything. Several of the stories are too improbable to have happened. The firstborn of every family and the firstborn of the livestock dying is an impossibility. Yet, the bigger the impossibility, the more people will believe a story is true. Because God; God can do anything.


People today still underestimate the knowledge and abilities of people in the past. They kept knowledge of nature cycles just like we do. Joseph, who interpreted the Pharoah's dreams, also could have known how to use a pendulum. Diviners were common in the Old Testament, in the New Testament also, but people don't recognize prophesy as an outcome of divination, because elsewhere in the Bible there are warnings not to practice divination. Not only did Joseph consult records of weather history, he consulted about the future with a pendulum. Then when drought hit, Egypt was prepared and surrounding countries weren't. Prophesies turn out to be well-educated hunches based on record keeping, taking the dreamscape seriously, and of course using consciousness tools such as pendulums.


Where there's a miracle there is always a god hiding behind the scenes. Miracles are made up stories. The bigger the fish tale, the more it is likely to be believed. Like Jesus feeding 5,000 people with a few loaves of bread and a couple of fish. Or Jesus walking on water. Didn't happen.


In everyday life, if people wish for things to happen and they do, such as wishing for it to stop raining and it does half an hour later, they shouldn't think their thoughts had something to do with it, or that a god answered their wishes or prayers. That's nature, not god. If something unexpected does happen it shouldn't be called a miracle. By all means it shouldn't be exaggerated because for some strange reason, people will believe it.  

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 28, 2015 - 1:42PM #7
Blü
Posts: 26,191

Hmmm


do you think that any of these 'practitioners of magic' who are not considered works of fiction, such as Yahweh, Jesus, or Simon Magus, actually performed magic or miraculous feats?


No. I think all magic is fictional.


It suggests to me that the dream of getting real results just by wishing runs deep in humans.


Thus I predict that when some manufacturer - Sony were trying it - develops a device that reliably reads your brainwaves and executes your orders accordingly, it'll sell extremely well. Imagine no more having to leave your computer to get another beer from the fridge!

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 29, 2015 - 11:50PM #8
Hmmm
Posts: 5,020

Sep 28, 2015 -- 3:24AM, christine3 wrote:


Well, as an example, I was pretty surprised this evening when watching a documentary about the Exodus. Archeologists have uncovered a city underneath the city of Ramesses that pushes the Exodus 400 years earlier than it says in the Bible. However, the beginning of the documentary starts out with an over the top statement: The Exodus proves God.


How can the Exodus have anything to do with a god, or prove a god?


Maybe Christians think that way because the Bible story makes it seem like a god orchestrated everything so that Moses' people would be set free by the Pharoah. That's the way the story is told. All the plagues, everything. Several of the stories are too improbable to have happened. The firstborn of every family and the firstborn of the livestock dying is an impossibility. Yet, the bigger the impossibility, the more people will believe a story is true. Because God; God can do anything.



But how do you know whether or not the firstborn of every family and the firstborn of the livestock died as the Bible story stated?


Sep 28, 2015 -- 3:24AM, christine3 wrote:


People today still underestimate the knowledge and abilities of people in the past. They kept knowledge of nature cycles just like we do. Joseph, who interpreted the Pharoah's dreams, also could have known how to use a pendulum. Diviners were common in the Old Testament, in the New Testament also, but people don't recognize prophesy as an outcome of divination, because elsewhere in the Bible there are warnings not to practice divination. Not only did Joseph consult records of weather history, he consulted about the future with a pendulum. Then when drought hit, Egypt was prepared and surrounding countries weren't. Prophesies turn out to be well-educated hunches based on record keeping, taking the dreamscape seriously, and of course using consciousness tools such as pendulums.



Okay, I don't mean to put you on the spot, but at first you said that Joseph could have known how to use a pendulum. However, later you said that not only did Joseph consult records of weather history, he consulted about the future with a pendulum. Therefore, which one is it? And if it is the latter, do you have any proof or any documentation for this?


Sep 28, 2015 -- 3:24AM, christine3 wrote:


Where there's a miracle there is always a god hiding behind the scenes. Miracles are made up stories. The bigger the fish tale, the more it is likely to be believed. Like Jesus feeding 5,000 people with a few loaves of bread and a couple of fish. Or Jesus walking on water. Didn't happen.



Okay, I am just playing advocate here, but why would oral tradition, which would then have been transcrbed into the written word, have claimed such a thing?


Sep 28, 2015 -- 3:24AM, christine3 wrote:


In everyday life, if people wish for things to happen and they do, such as wishing for it to stop raining and it does half an hour later, they shouldn't think their thoughts had something to do with it, or that a god answered their wishes or prayers. That's nature, not god. If something unexpected does happen it shouldn't be called a miracle. By all means it shouldn't be exaggerated because for some strange reason, people will believe it.



So are you saying that in the examples that you gave before, something similar that people had been wishing for actually happened? And if so, then what do you think were the similar things that actually happened?

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 29, 2015 - 11:59PM #9
Hmmm
Posts: 5,020

Sep 28, 2015 -- 1:42PM, Blü wrote:


Hmmm


do you think that any of these 'practitioners of magic' who are not considered works of fiction, such as Yahweh, Jesus, or Simon Magus, actually performed magic or miraculous feats?


No. I think all magic is fictional.



So you don't think that any of the said 'miracle workers' are true, and therefore, if you had a debate with a theist about this, the debate would basically come down to a 'is-too...is-not' debate? :-)


Sep 28, 2015 -- 1:42PM, Blü wrote:


It suggests to me that the dream of getting real results just by wishing runs deep in humans.



So do you think that that is what this all boils down to: what humans want in our reality?

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 30, 2015 - 3:02AM #10
christine3
Posts: 9,274

Hmm: But how do you know whether or not the firstborn of every family and the firstborn of the livestock died as the Bible story stated?


Christine: If we are to believe the Bible, it says in Exodus 12:29 they died at the strike of 12:00. But I don't believe it.


Hmmm: Okay, I don't mean to put you on the spot, but at first you said that Joseph could have known how to use a pendulum. However, later you said that not only did Joseph consult records of weather history, he consulted about the future with a pendulum. Therefore, which one is it? And if it is the latter, do you have any proof or any documentation for this?


Christine: You're not putting me on the spot. I think that he did. People in power did, prophets did and healers did. No, I can't prove it to you. I spoke to a man of the Mandaean tribe (descendants of John the Baptist) about a month ago. Adam was their first prophet. I asked him how long ago Adam lived. He left the conversation for about 5 minutes, saying he had to do calculations because he wasn't sure from memory. He came back with this number: "445,385 years ago." (This still doesn't mean they were the first people.) I was shocked when I heard it, fully expecting about 5-6,000 years ago. So much of the time because of our assumptions we fail to recognize what might really be true. We always assume that Adam lived around the time Genesis was written. I asked him what part of the world he lived in, and he said "Sarandeb, three generations before flooding." As for the flood story of Gilgamesh and the story of Adam, plagiarized as Noah's Flood and the healing of Enki, historians and Bible believers have assumed the flooding to be around 6,000 years ago. So much is assumed! It will be years before we finally prove the truth of the past. Never hearing of Sarandeb, I had to look it up. It is part of Sri Lanka (formerly Ceylon) in India. Evidence of extensive flooding that long ago may or may not have been looked for in that part of the world, I don't know. Here is a difficult situation which should be addressed... I don't understand why a living Gnostic group, the Mandaeans, which means those who had the knowledge, aren't more looked into for their alternative history of the world, and then studied and tested scientifically, as we are able to do today.  


Hmmm:Okay, I am just playing advocate here, but why would oral tradition, which would then have been transcrbed into the written word, have claimed such a thing?


Christine: Just because it is oral tradition does not mean it is true. Two things can happen. People get the stories wrong, or they purposefully make stories to fit the divination method and hide the secrets. Then the secrets are forgotten and all you have are stories that don't make sense unless God is involved. Quelle is divination methods changed into New Testament stories. In the story of feeding the multitudes, Jesus as a member of the trinity can multiply five loaves and two fish to feed 5,000 people. A straight up lie. Understanding the underlying divination method is key. On five days of the week a divination method goes one way, and on two days of the week a divination method goes another way. The story goes there were five loaves of bread and two fish. The story was never about bread and fish. The divination method got reinvented into a god story to sell Jesus. 


Hmmm: So are you saying that in the examples that you gave before, something similar that people had been wishing for actually happened? And if so, then what do you think were the similar things that actually happened?


Christine: You lost me there. Which examples?


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