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Switch to Forum Live View Show me in scripture we are born with a sin nature &
2 years ago  ::  Sep 27, 2015 - 11:44AM #1
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,664

Augustine's concept of original sin and a man being born with a sin nature are Siamese twins, and neither can be found in scripture. I can refute any scripture anyone proposes to support either. Nobody can show from scripture where anyone is physically born with guilt (and therefore born a sinner) or has inherited in any (genetic-type) sense a sin nature.


These we acquire, personally, when we transgress the law of God.


This thread has come from a challenge by 57 (the little children thread). I say we cannot simultaneously be born created in the image of God, and be born with guilt or a sin nature, they are mutually exclusive. 


And now knowing you will be shown to be wrong, I challenge you to look and read and study before you post.


 

Roses always come with thorns. Sometimes, thorns first, sometimes roses first, and, sometimes, thorns outside, roses inside, sometimes roses outside, thorns inside.

Someone who dreams of drinking wine at a cheerful banquet may wake up crying the next morning. Someone who dreams of crying may go off the next morning to enjoy the sport of the hunt. When we are in the midst of a dream, we do not know it's a dream. Sometimes we may even try to interpret our dreams while we are dreaming, but then we awake and realize it was a dream. Only after one is greatly awakened does one realize that it was all a great dream, while the fool thinks that he is awake and presumptuously aware. Chuang Tzu
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 27, 2015 - 1:38PM #2
InHisHands
Posts: 11,552

Sep 27, 2015 -- 11:44AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


Augustine's concept of original sin and a man being born with a sin nature are Siamese twins, and neither can be found in scripture. I can refute any scripture anyone proposes to support either. Nobody can show from scripture where anyone is physically born with guilt (and therefore born a sinner) or has inherited in any (genetic-type) sense a sin nature.


These we acquire, personally, when we transgress the law of God.


This thread has come from a challenge by 57 (the little children thread). I say we cannot simultaneously be born created in the image of God, and be born with guilt or a sin nature, they are mutually exclusive. 


And now knowing you will be shown to be wrong, I challenge you to look and read and study before you post.


 




Genesis 8:21
Why?  Do you dare to profess yourself THE EXACT IMAGE OF GOD, the FULLNESS OF HIS GLORY and THE EXACT REPRESENTATION OF HIS BEING?  


Even when GOD sent HIS SON who is all these things made known to mortal man?


Will you profess that apart from THE SON, you can...profess yourself??????


We were made in HIS IMAGE...that does not mean that we have the right to change HIS IMAGE to fit our shortcomings and failures...which is why those GOD foreknew HE predestined to be conformed to the IMAGE OF HIS SON...


GOD who is HOLY does not have to conform HIS IMAGE to man and HE does not have to compromise HIS IMAGE for man...HE sent HIS SON...who is the visible image of the invisible GOD made known to man...


Unless of course, you do not need to LOOK TO HIS SON for LIFE?


But that is the very will and work of GOD...that ALL should LOOK to HIS SON and those who behold HIS SON and believe in HIM, have ETERNAL LIFE..  (John 6)

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 27, 2015 - 3:24PM #3
Jenandew7
Posts: 15,945

Hi sdp.  It is a pleasure to see you again. 


I think it is instrumental for us to recognize that God is no stranger to ourselves.  We recognize him, through faith, in all others.  We find God within.  Mankind is created in the image and likeness of God, what was traditionally called, the Imago Dei, used exclusively for mankind.  It refers to Genesis 1:27 


 

If you pour yourself out for the hungry and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then shall your light rise in the darkness and your gloom be as the noonday. --Isaiah 58:10
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 27, 2015 - 3:27PM #4
Rgurley4
Posts: 11,795

 a "SIN NATURE" vs a "Divine Nature"


Surely I was sinful at birth...    (Psalm 51:5)


Matthew 15 (NASB)...Jesus on The "Heart"/soul/spirit of Mankind = innate "sin nature"
15 Peter said to Him (Jesus), “Explain the parable to us.”(disciples) 16 Jesus said,
“Are you still lacking in understanding also?
17 Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated? 18 But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the "heart", and those defile the man.
19 For out of the "heart" come
evil thoughts,
murders,
adulteries,
fornications,
thefts,
false witness,
slanders. (as EXAMPLES!
20 These are the things which defile the man;
but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man.”


Since Eden / Flood, Man has spiritually, bodily, and soulfully DEVOLVED
by turning from God. His "sin nature" has slowly driven mankind nearer to a judgment..."the end of the ages".


A Spiritually CREATED perfect Man / Angels  CAN / DID exercise
their own SEPARATE spiritual wills against / outside of
the perfect WILL of the TRI-UNE GOD.....
~= SIN NATURE ~=Natural tendancy for Man's BODY/SOUL/SPIRIT to turn from God and toward selfish self.


Attempted DEFINITIONS:


SIN = "falling short" = ANYTHING contrary to the CHARACTER of GOD.


SIN(S) = personal "missing the marks" = willfull or ignorant, commission or omission, "trespasses" that cause
loss of fellowship between God and Man.


SIN NATURE = the natural capacity and inclination to do / not do those things
that can in no way commend Man and his "works" to God.


REALITY: You do not have to teach children in the crib to be: SELFISH / SELF-CENTERED / REBELLIOUS / CRUEL / etc. ...INNATE TENDANCIES. You have to train children to do JUST the OPPOSITE!


REPENT = TURN FROM SELF TO GOD!

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 27, 2015 - 10:16PM #5
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,664

Psalm 51:5 is one sentence, one whole thought. The NASB says: I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me. That's referring to the sin of David's mother, not him.


Nothing else you have shows sin from birth. It's not in the Bible.


Whatever your translation is, it's reading the theology into the scripture.


 


Sep 27, 2015 -- 3:27PM, Rgurley4 wrote:


 a "SIN NATURE" vs a "Divine Nature"


Surely I was sinful at birth...    (Psalm 51:5)


Matthew 15 (NASB)...Jesus on The "Heart"/soul/spirit of Mankind = innate "sin nature"
15 Peter said to Him (Jesus), “Explain the parable to us.”(disciples) 16 Jesus said,
“Are you still lacking in understanding also?
17 Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated? 18 But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the "heart", and those defile the man.
19 For out of the "heart" come
evil thoughts,
murders,
adulteries,
fornications,
thefts,
false witness,
slanders. (as EXAMPLES!
20 These are the things which defile the man;
but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man.”


Since Eden / Flood, Man has spiritually, bodily, and soulfully DEVOLVED
by turning from God. His "sin nature" has slowly driven mankind nearer to a judgment..."the end of the ages".


A Spiritually CREATED perfect Man / Angels  CAN / DID exercise
their own SEPARATE spiritual wills against / outside of
the perfect WILL of the TRI-UNE GOD.....
~= SIN NATURE ~=Natural tendancy for Man's BODY/SOUL/SPIRIT to turn from God and toward selfish self.


Attempted DEFINITIONS:


SIN = "falling short" = ANYTHING contrary to the CHARACTER of GOD.


SIN(S) = personal "missing the marks" = willfull or ignorant, commission or omission, "trespasses" that cause
loss of fellowship between God and Man.


SIN NATURE = the natural capacity and inclination to do / not do those things
that can in no way commend Man and his "works" to God.


REALITY: You do not have to teach children in the crib to be: SELFISH / SELF-CENTERED / REBELLIOUS / CRUEL / etc. ...INNATE TENDANCIES. You have to train children to do JUST the OPPOSITE!


REPENT = TURN FROM SELF TO GOD!





Roses always come with thorns. Sometimes, thorns first, sometimes roses first, and, sometimes, thorns outside, roses inside, sometimes roses outside, thorns inside.

Someone who dreams of drinking wine at a cheerful banquet may wake up crying the next morning. Someone who dreams of crying may go off the next morning to enjoy the sport of the hunt. When we are in the midst of a dream, we do not know it's a dream. Sometimes we may even try to interpret our dreams while we are dreaming, but then we awake and realize it was a dream. Only after one is greatly awakened does one realize that it was all a great dream, while the fool thinks that he is awake and presumptuously aware. Chuang Tzu
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 27, 2015 - 10:28PM #6
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,664

Sep 27, 2015 -- 3:24PM, Jenandew7 wrote:


Hi sdp.  It is a pleasure to see you again. 


I think it is instrumental for us to recognize that God is no stranger to ourselves.  We recognize him, through faith, in all others.  We find God within.  Mankind is created in the image and likeness of God, what was traditionally called, the Imago Dei, used exclusively for mankind.  It refers to Genesis 1:27 


 




Hey....I've been poking around here for a few weeks, mostly on US News and Current Events, a little posting here. Seems I came back in time to say good bye. Good to hear from you...likewise.

Roses always come with thorns. Sometimes, thorns first, sometimes roses first, and, sometimes, thorns outside, roses inside, sometimes roses outside, thorns inside.

Someone who dreams of drinking wine at a cheerful banquet may wake up crying the next morning. Someone who dreams of crying may go off the next morning to enjoy the sport of the hunt. When we are in the midst of a dream, we do not know it's a dream. Sometimes we may even try to interpret our dreams while we are dreaming, but then we awake and realize it was a dream. Only after one is greatly awakened does one realize that it was all a great dream, while the fool thinks that he is awake and presumptuously aware. Chuang Tzu
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 27, 2015 - 10:38PM #7
InHisHands
Posts: 11,552

Sep 27, 2015 -- 10:16PM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


Psalm 51:5 is one sentence, one whole thought. The NASB says: I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me. That's referring to the sin of David's mother, not him.


Nothing else you have shows sin from birth. It's not in the Bible.





Eve is the mother of all living...both male and female offspring.  Unless of course, you were in the garden of GOD from the beginning and remained there?

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 27, 2015 - 11:03PM #8
Rgurley4
Posts: 11,795

I do not believe in the doctrine of "ORIGINAL SIN". Only Paul in Romans 5 even implies such a thing. We are not DNA tainted with A&E's disobedience. All infant/unperceptive spirits return to God who gave them at death. That is the theological reason why ritual water baptism does save nor spiritually wash away sin. When mankind spiritually accepts the calling of God and is changed (John 3), then he is spiritually baptized into the Body of Christ. (1 Cor. 12:13)


If that true, then the question becomes almost a philosophical one:


1. Is the innate spirit of man God - seeking...GOOD?


OR


2. 1. Is the inherent spirit of man God - rejecting...BAD?


Is Man naturally SELFISH?


OR


Is Man naturally Divine?


We are made in God's spiritual image, BUT He gave us "free will" to accept or reject Him and His gracious provisions for salvation.


The purpose of Man is to bring glory to God...or NOT! That is a choice.


Before the Flood:



Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.


Psalm 53:1 [ Folly and Wickedness of Men. ]
[ For the choir director; according to Mahalath. A Maskil of David. ]
The fool has said in his "heart", “There is no God,”
They are corrupt, and have committed abominable injustice;
There is no one who does good.





Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.


One of my favorite Psalms:


Psalm 51(NASB)...A Contrite Sinner’s Prayer for Pardon from his sinfullness


For the choir director. A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.


5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,(into a sinful world?)
And in sin my mother conceived me. (outside of marriage?)


6
Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being,
And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom.


7
Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.


8
Make me to hear joy and gladness,
Let the bones which You have broken rejoice.


9
Hide Your face from my sins
And blot out all my iniquities.


10
Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.


11
Do not cast me away from Your presence
And do not take Your (God the) Holy Spirit from me.


12
Restore to me the joy of Your salvation
And sustain me with a willing spirit.


13
Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
And sinners will be converted to You.

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 27, 2015 - 11:14PM #9
Rgurley4
Posts: 11,795

Eve is the mother of all living (And the Old Adam the father)


Q: Were A&E inherently good or evil when they were first created?


Q2: Did they become evil, or did they just disobey a clear and understood command?


Q3: How were the serpent, Adam, and Eve EACH separately DISCIPLINED?


Q4: Are A&E in the heavenly realms in the presence of God NOW?


Sin is NOT IMPUTED! ONLY holiness / righteousness is !

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 28, 2015 - 1:44AM #10
Utilyan
Posts: 7,300

There is no such thing as SIN NATURE because SIN itself is UN-NATURAL.


 


If Sin was something natural to being human then Jesus Christ has never been human.


 


 


All this however doesn't negate "orginal sin"  which only sounds unfair if your selfish.


 


Its a shared justification of the entirety of mankind.


 


 


 


Romans 11


 


. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.


 


 


 


God classifies everyone as disobedient.


 


 


 


Theres a reason you are born here on earth rather then heaven.   As innocent as you truly might have been,    Your being placed in a position of responsibility of all sinners of the whole world.


True goodness can handle responsibility.   


 


 


Jesus is an example of how to do it.    He himself became sin.


 


 


 


Its easier to understand from the perspective of someone who loves EVERYONE.    And then imagine you are a Father.


 


If someone goes BAD or EVIL you want the whole family in on it especially epathizing the need to help the ignorant/evil person out of their trap.


 


 


God can't look at you without thinking "Us".    Totally unselfish, the opposite of egotistical.


 


The blame falls on you naturally without the need of rules or laws if you care about who is doing the wrong.


 


 

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