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Switch to Forum Live View Suffering & God's Existence Debate
2 years ago  ::  Sep 25, 2015 - 2:28AM #1
Kwinters
Posts: 24,617



I review a debate between Bart Ehrman and Kyle Butt on the subject of suffering and god. Ehrman's sincere comments transcend the limitations of the structure debate format to make the viewer think deeply about the issue.


Ehrman-Butt Debate Suffering & God's Existence
youtu.be/AeDQfGbcYpE

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 25, 2015 - 10:15AM #2
williejhonlo
Posts: 4,100

As Butt said, you can't logically prove that God doesn't exist. The perception of evil and suffering  just makes you ponder why  God would allow suffering, it doesn't disprove the existence of God. Secondly, Genesis would say that Adam is the  cause of our  suffering because adam ate of the forbidden fruit. In truth, the good and evil was already there but Adam out of ignorance chose suffering. I found what Butt said interesting why say skip through his parts?

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 25, 2015 - 11:22AM #3
christine3
Posts: 9,274

Sep 25, 2015 -- 10:15AM, williejhonlo wrote:


As Butt said, you can't logically prove that God doesn't exist. The perception of evil and suffering  just makes you ponder why  God would allow suffering, it doesn't disprove the existence of God. Secondly, Genesis would say that Adam is the  cause of our  suffering because adam ate of the forbidden fruit. In truth, the good and evil was already there but Adam out of ignorance chose suffering. I found what Butt said interesting why say skip through his parts?




I am one of those atheists that has not one tiny little shred of agnostic in me. I am as convinced as can be that there is no 'God' and there never was. Yet, here's the important point that needs to be said Will. As far as ideas are concerned, though 'God' can't logically be proved, certain shall I say, conditions, have been met to make possible a consciousness shift from the old vindictive god outside of humanity, to the good god that dwells inside of humanity. Second to that, in a world with a large population and the ability to see what people do on the other side of the world in minutes, all eyes are watching. That in itself will eliminate a huge amount of the suffering that has been going on on this planet for many thousands of years. If humanity survives its own stupidity, life for every person should be much better in the foreseeable future.


Oh, and the better question to ask is, why would WE allow suffering, not why would 'God' allow suffering. A better for question getting answers that can be worked with, that is.

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 25, 2015 - 11:43AM #4
christine3
Posts: 9,274

One more thing. You know that the victor writes the history. The story of Adam eating the forbidden fruit causing the downfall of man is only one story, from one book, told by one tribe. It is a story to ridicule and subjugate either an outcast tribe or a rival tribe. Adam was the first and foremost prophet to the Mandaeans (John the Baptist's descendants). He draws a huge amount of respect in that tribe, the complete opposite for Christians and Jews. You need to remove yourself from the myopic view that is so common for people who think their religion is the greatest and that all other religions should be subjugated. There IS a larger picture that goes unnoticed.

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 25, 2015 - 12:26PM #5
williejhonlo
Posts: 4,100

Sep 25, 2015 -- 11:22AM, christine3 wrote:


Sep 25, 2015 -- 10:15AM, williejhonlo wrote:


As Butt said, you can't logically prove that God doesn't exist. The perception of evil and suffering  just makes you ponder why  God would allow suffering, it doesn't disprove the existence of God. Secondly, Genesis would say that Adam is the  cause of our  suffering because adam ate of the forbidden fruit. In truth, the good and evil was already there but Adam out of ignorance chose suffering. I found what Butt said interesting why say skip through his parts?




I am one of those atheists that has not one tiny little shred of agnostic in me. I am as convinced as can be that there is no 'God' and there never was. Yet, here's the important point that needs to be said Will. As far as ideas are concerned, though 'God' can't logically be proved, certain shall I say, conditions, have been met to make possible a consciousness shift from the old vindictive god outside of humanity, to the good god that dwells inside of humanity. Second to that, in a world with a large population and the ability to see what people do on the other side of the world in minutes, all eyes are watching. That in itself will eliminate a huge amount of the suffering that has been going on on this planet for many thousands of years. If humanity survives its own stupidity, life for every person should be much better in the foreseeable future.


Oh, and the better question to ask is, why would WE allow suffering, not why would 'God' allow suffering. A better for question for getting answers that can be worked with, that is.



True, we can't prove that God exist anymore then we could prove that he doesn't exist, it's all about perception. Someone could be convinced that there is no God, and someone could be easily convinced that there is a God. It's all relative to perception.You ask, Why would we allow suffering? It's not a question of allowing because suffering is unavoidable. The body itself is a source of suffering, death, old age, disease, make it so. We cause suffering ourselves by maintaining slaughter houses that cause suffering to animals. By our technology we are creating Global warming that impacts other species of life on this planet. Our egos also cause suffering, but it's not possible to get rid of ego but we can pacify it by spirituality. To me, being spiritual means practicing your religion, if your religion tells you to love your neighbor as you love your self then practicing that love is spirituality. That practice will pacify the ego that causes so much suffering in the world.

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 25, 2015 - 12:51PM #6
christine3
Posts: 9,274

Sep 25, 2015 -- 12:26PM, williejhonlo wrote:

True, we can't prove that God exist anymore then we could prove that he doesn't exist, it's all about perception. Someone could be convinced that there is no God, and someone could be easily convinced that there is a God. It's all relative to perception.You ask, Why would we allow suffering? It's not a question of allowing because suffering is unavoidable. The body itself is a source of suffering, death, old age, disease, make it so. 




I have to disagree with you. Suffering is definitely avoidable. It's just how far you are willing to go in divorcing yourself from the idea that suffering is inevitable.


So, as you see, I do not buy into the idea that God created the universe and its all good because God is God. At some point, step off the wheel. I have the right not to be oppressed by some people that believe their god dictates rights to some people, not to others.

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 25, 2015 - 2:32PM #7
williejhonlo
Posts: 4,100

Sep 25, 2015 -- 12:51PM, christine3 wrote:


Sep 25, 2015 -- 12:26PM, williejhonlo wrote:

True, we can't prove that God exist anymore then we could prove that he doesn't exist, it's all about perception. Someone could be convinced that there is no God, and someone could be easily convinced that there is a God. It's all relative to perception.You ask, Why would we allow suffering? It's not a question of allowing because suffering is unavoidable. The body itself is a source of suffering, death, old age, disease, make it so. 




I have to disagree with you. Suffering is definitely avoidable. It's just how far you are willing to go in divorcing yourself from the idea that suffering is inevitable. So, as you see, I do not buy into your idea that God created the universe and its all good because God is God. At some point, step off the wheel.



How does divorcing myself from the idea that suffering is avoidable prevent old age, accidents, etc. ? You see how it is all about perception? Someone may question why would an all good God allow suffering? But my perception is, why would an all good God stop suffering? It's all about perception of your identity, if I see myself as consciousness that comes from a plane that is consciousness God wouldn't want to make the material world all nice and comfortable for me because that would make me attached to it. Him allowing suffering would make me detached to it. If suffering is a catalyst that helps me renounce the world, and if that is what ultimately Gods desires then suffering serves God. It's all about perception.

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 25, 2015 - 11:28PM #8
Blü
Posts: 26,191



Willie


As Butt said, you can't logically prove that God doesn't exist.


But what could a real god possibly be? What objective test will tell us if someone or something is a god or not?


Which is to say, prove that what, exactly, doesn't exist?



Genesis would say that Adam is the  cause of our  suffering because adam ate of the forbidden fruit. In truth, the good and evil was already there but Adam out of ignorance chose suffering.


The Garden story says nothing of the kind. The whole shtick about a 'sin of disobedience' and death entering the world &c is from many centuries after the story was written.


And what kind of psychopathic monster wants to consign humanity to eternal torment over the ability to tell good from evil?



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2 years ago  ::  Sep 25, 2015 - 11:54PM #9
christine3
Posts: 9,274

Sep 25, 2015 -- 2:32PM, williejhonlo wrote:


How does divorcing myself from the idea that suffering is avoidable prevent old age, accidents, etc. ? You see how it is all about perception? Someone may question why would an all good God allow suffering? But my perception is, why would an all good God stop suffering? It's all about perception of your identity, if I see myself as consciousness that comes from a plane that is consciousness God wouldn't want to make the material world all nice and comfortable for me because that would make me attached to it. Him allowing suffering would make me detached to it. If suffering is a catalyst that helps me renounce the world, and if that is what ultimately Gods desires then suffering serves God. It's all about perception.




What I mean is, growing old doesn't have to involve as much suffering as there is from neglect, poverty. Old age should be very pleasant, aside from the dying process which could be next to pleasant also. At the rate science is going there will be age reversal, and one can leave when they want to, not when they have to. The majority of the world's accidents could be prevented in the best of all worlds. Like I said, it's how far one is willing to go to not make excuses that suffering in this world is inevitable. Wars, famine, poverty can be stopped if people want it to stop.


How would you know a god much less a god's thoughts? You don't think this world has/contains consciousness? It's all about perception. So you'd want people to suffer? That's your conscious thought so they can renounce the world?


Needless to say, the RCC has set such impossibly high standards that nobody can live up to them. Sexual oppression, for instance. Be perfect as God. (Really? While they were fooling around.) Shows to what lengths oppressors speaking love from the sword or spear felt safe to go. How was their behavior succssful in helping people renounce the world?


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2 years ago  ::  Sep 26, 2015 - 11:54AM #10
williejhonlo
Posts: 4,100

Sep 25, 2015 -- 11:28PM, Blü wrote:




Willie


As Butt said, you can't logically prove that God doesn't exist.


But what could a real god possibly be? What objective test will tell us if someone or something is a god or not?


Which is to say, prove that what, exactly, doesn't exist?



Genesis would say that Adam is the  cause of our  suffering because adam ate of the forbidden fruit. In truth, the good and evil was already there but Adam out of ignorance chose suffering.


The Garden story says nothing of the kind. The whole shtick about a 'sin of disobedience' and death entering the world &c is from many centuries after the story was written.


And what kind of psychopathic monster wants to consign humanity to eternal torment over the ability to tell good from evil?





You ask, "But what could a real god possibly be?" An entity of course. "What objective test will tell us if someone is a god or not?" no test needed, the quality of his knowledge would tell us if he is a god or not.




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