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2 years ago  ::  Sep 15, 2015 - 2:48PM #1
five_point_dad
Posts: 4,719
When Paul wrote that Christ "BECAME OBEDIENT" to the Father (Phil 2:8), what was He before that point in time?  Was he "disobedient"?  That doesn't seem an option as Christ was sinless.  Was He superior to the Father?  I don't know of anyone who believes that.  He couldn't have been created obedient because the participle indicates He became obedient by his own actions, beging a deponet middle.  It wasn't that he was "created" obedient because the participle "became" is aorist tense meaning it occurred at a point in time.  So what was He before becoming obedient? 
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 15, 2015 - 7:42PM #2
eloquens
Posts: 971

Sep 15, 2015 -- 2:48PM, five_point_dad wrote:

When Paul wrote that Christ "BECAME OBEDIENT" to the Father (Phil 2:8), what was He before that point in time?  Was he "disobedient"?  That doesn't seem an option as Christ was sinless.  Was He superior to the Father?  I don't know of anyone who believes that.  He couldn't have been created obedient because the participle indicates He became obedient by his own actions, beging a deponet middle.  It wasn't that he was "created" obedient because the participle "became" is aorist tense meaning it occurred at a point in time.  So what was He before becoming obedient? 



My two cents worth.


With the use of a superior translation the NWT, the context is made clear and says it all.


Phil 2:8 "More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake."


When Christ took on the role of the Messiah at his baptism, he knew the course he was about to choose would involve hardship, suffering and death for him.  Yet he humbly bacame obedient in faithfully following that course regardless because it was his fathers will.


Heb 10:7 "Then I said: ‘Look! I have come (in the scroll*it is written about me) to do your will, O God."


John 10:17 "This is why the Father loves me, because I surrender my life, so that I may receive it again."


Heb 2:9 "But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, so that by God’s undeserved kindness he might taste death for everyone."


Heb 5:8 "Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered."

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 15, 2015 - 8:14PM #3
five_point_dad
Posts: 4,719

Sep 15, 2015 -- 7:42PM, eloquens wrote:

Sep 15, 2015 -- 2:48PM, five_point_dad wrote:

When Paul wrote that Christ "BECAME OBEDIENT" to the Father (Phil 2:8), what was He before that point in time?  Was he "disobedient"?  That doesn't seem an option as Christ was sinless.  Was He superior to the Father?  I don't know of anyone who believes that.  He couldn't have been created obedient because the participle indicates He became obedient by his own actions, beging a deponet middle.  It wasn't that he was "created" obedient because the participle "became" is aorist tense meaning it occurred at a point in time.  So what was He before becoming obedient? 



My two cents worth.


With the use of a superior translation the NWT, the context is made clear and says it all.


Phil 2:8 "More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake."


When Christ took on the role of the Messiah at his baptism, he knew the course he was about to choose would involve hardship, suffering and death for him.  Yet he humbly bacame obedient in faithfully following that course regardless because it was his fathers will.


Heb 10:7 "Then I said: ‘Look! I have come (in the scroll*it is written about me) to do your will, O God."


John 10:17 "This is why the Father loves me, because I surrender my life, so that I may receive it again."


Heb 2:9 "But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, so that by God’s undeserved kindness he might taste death for everyone."


Heb 5:8 "Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered."


So, if I'm understanding you correctly, are you saying his obedience that Paul mentioned here related to his death?  Yet, his redemptive work also included his righteousness and his function as high priest.  Would you also include his obedience in those aspects as well? 

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 16, 2015 - 4:44AM #4
eloquens
Posts: 971

Sep 15, 2015 -- 8:14PM, five_point_dad wrote:

Sep 15, 2015 -- 7:42PM, eloquens wrote:


Sep 15, 2015 -- 2:48PM, five_point_dad wrote:

When Paul wrote that Christ "BECAME OBEDIENT" to the Father (Phil 2:8), what was He before that point in time?  Was he "disobedient"?  That doesn't seem an option as Christ was sinless.  Was He superior to the Father?  I don't know of anyone who believes that.  He couldn't have been created obedient because the participle indicates He became obedient by his own actions, beging a deponet middle.  It wasn't that he was "created" obedient because the participle "became" is aorist tense meaning it occurred at a point in time.  So what was He before becoming obedient? 



My two cents worth.


With the use of a superior translation the NWT, the context is made clear and says it all.


Phil 2:8 "More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake."


When Christ took on the role of the Messiah at his baptism, he knew the course he was about to choose would involve hardship, suffering and death for him.  Yet he humbly bacame obedient in faithfully following that course regardless because it was his fathers will.


Heb 10:7 "Then I said: ‘Look! I have come (in the scroll*it is written about me) to do your will, O God."


John 10:17 "This is why the Father loves me, because I surrender my life, so that I may receive it again."


Heb 2:9 "But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, so that by God’s undeserved kindness he might taste death for everyone."


Heb 5:8 "Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered."




So, if I'm understanding you correctly, are you saying his obedience that Paul mentioned here related to his death?



Yes, and his faithfull obedient course that led to it.


Phil 2:8 ". . .became obedient to the point of death. . ."


Sep 15, 2015 -- 8:14PM, five_point_dad wrote:


Yet, his redemptive work also included his righteousness and his function as high priest.  Would you also include his obedience in those aspects as well? 




Of course it does. When Jusus was anointed as the Christ/Messiah he bacame a high preist also, and by obediently following a righteous and faithful course without sin, as such he could provide the ransom and offer to God the ulimate sacrifice, himself.




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2 years ago  ::  Sep 16, 2015 - 6:36AM #5
five_point_dad
Posts: 4,719

ELOQUENS: Phil 2:8 ". . .became obedient to the point of death. . ."  


Of course it does. When Jusus was anointed as the Christ/Messiah he bacame a high preist also, and by obediently following a righteous and faithful course without sin, as such he could provide the ransom and offer to God the ulimate sacrifice, himself.


FPD: Okay, so you would assign his obedience only to his redemptive mission.  I know you and I would disagree over his origin.  You would say He was created at some point in time.  I would maintain that He was eternal.  The Scripture says He "became" obedient meaning that course of action didn't begin until He determined to do it, which would mean He was already existing when He "became obedient."  So, in your viewpoint, between the time Christ was "created" and the time when He "became" obedient, did He not have a redemptive mission?  (It is difficult to assess someone's entire body of theology in a few paragraphs.)  Before the Lord Jesus "became" obedient, what was his status?  What was his mission in that interim? 


I'm also curious as to your statement that the NWT is a "superior translation."  Upon what do you base that opinion? 
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 16, 2015 - 9:30AM #6
eloquens
Posts: 971

Sep 16, 2015 -- 6:36AM, five_point_dad wrote:


ELOQUENS: Phil 2:8 ". . .became obedient to the point of death. . ."  


Of course it does. When Jusus was anointed as the Christ/Messiah he bacame a high preist also, and by obediently following a righteous and faithful course without sin, as such he could provide the ransom and offer to God the ulimate sacrifice, himself.


FPD: Okay, so you would assign his obedience only to his redemptive mission.  I know you and I would disagree over his origin.  You would say He was created at some point in time.  I would maintain that He was eternal.  The Scripture says He "became" obedient meaning that course of action didn't begin until He determined to do it, which would mean He was already existing when He "became obedient."  So, in your viewpoint, between the time Christ was "created" and the time when He "became" obedient, did He not have a redemptive mission?  (It is difficult to assess someone's entire body of theology in a few paragraphs.)  Before the Lord Jesus "became" obedient, what was his status?  What was his mission in that interim?





The scripture reference at Phil 2:8, lets look at it again, states:


Phil 2:8 "More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death"


Evidently, Jesus was an obedient son when he was in heaven prior to his coming to the earth. The scripture in Phil 2 has reference to him as "a man". Jesus, prior to his baptism, through his study of the scriptures along with what his mother Mary would have told him about the crcumstances surrounding his birth, would have realised that he was sent into the world by God to fulfil the role of the promised Messiah, with all that it entailed including eventually his death as a sacrifice. Jesus' redemtive work began when he presented himself to God at his baptism excepting that role. He became obedient in fulfilling that role to the letter with all it entailed to point of death. Thus becoming an outstanding example in obedience.


Heb 10:7 "Then I said: ‘Look! I have come (in the scroll it is written about me) to do your will, O God."



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2 years ago  ::  Sep 16, 2015 - 9:37AM #7
eloquens
Posts: 971

Sep 16, 2015 -- 9:30AM, eloquens wrote:


Sep 16, 2015 -- 6:36AM, five_point_dad wrote:


ELOQUENS: Phil 2:8 ". . .became obedient to the point of death. . ."  


Of course it does. When Jusus was anointed as the Christ/Messiah he bacame a high preist also, and by obediently following a righteous and faithful course without sin, as such he could provide the ransom and offer to God the ulimate sacrifice, himself.


FPD: Okay, so you would assign his obedience only to his redemptive mission.  I know you and I would disagree over his origin.  You would say He was created at some point in time.  I would maintain that He was eternal.  The Scripture says He "became" obedient meaning that course of action didn't begin until He determined to do it, which would mean He was already existing when He "became obedient."  So, in your viewpoint, between the time Christ was "created" and the time when He "became" obedient, did He not have a redemptive mission?  (It is difficult to assess someone's entire body of theology in a few paragraphs.)  Before the Lord Jesus "became" obedient, what was his status?  What was his mission in that interim?





The scripture reference at Phil 2:8, lets look at it again, states:


Phil 2:8 "More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death"


Evidently, Jesus was an obedient son when he was in heaven prior to his coming to the earth. The scripture in Phil 2 has reference to him as "a man". Jesus, prior to his baptism, through his study of the scriptures along with what his mother Mary would have told him about the crcumstances surrounding his birth, would have realised that he was sent into the world by God to fulfil the role of the promised Messiah, with all that it entailed including eventually his death as a sacrifice. Jesus' redemtive work began when he presented himself to God at his baptism excepting that role. He became obedient in fulfilling that role to the letter with all it entailed to point of death. Thus becoming an outstanding example in obedience.


Heb 10:7 "Then I said: ‘Look! I have come (in the scroll it is written about me) to do your will, O God."




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2 years ago  ::  Sep 16, 2015 - 10:32AM #8
Kemmer
Posts: 18,459

Sep 15, 2015 -- 7:42PM, eloquens wrote:


With the use of a superior translation the NWT...



You mean the NWT's paraphrasing chopjob to accommodate JW fantasies?

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 16, 2015 - 1:31PM #9
eloquens
Posts: 971

Sep 16, 2015 -- 10:32AM, Kemmer wrote:


Sep 15, 2015 -- 7:42PM, eloquens wrote:


With the use of a superior translation the NWT...



You mean the NWT's paraphrasing chopjob to accommodate JW fantasies?




Luke 23:34 “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” 

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 16, 2015 - 2:34PM #10
five_point_dad
Posts: 4,719

ELOQUENS: The scripture reference at Phil 2:8, lets look at it again, states:  Phil 2:8 "More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death"


Evidently, Jesus was an obedient son when he was in heaven prior to his coming to the earth. The scripture in Phil 2 has reference to him as "a man". Jesus, prior to his baptism, through his study of the scriptures along with what his mother Mary would have told him about the crcumstances surrounding his birth, would have realised that he was sent into the world by God to fulfil the role of the promised Messiah, with all that it entailed including eventually his death as a sacrifice. Jesus' redemtive work began when he presented himself to God at his baptism excepting that role. He became obedient in fulfilling that role to the letter with all it entailed to point of death. Thus becoming an outstanding example in obedience.   Heb 10:7 "Then I said: ‘Look! I have come (in the scroll it is written about me) to do your will, O God."


FPD: If you believe Christ was a created being (which I don't), for what reason was He created?  It would have to be redemption.  That was always the plan of the Father for Him.  Isaiah foresaw the redemption of Christ in Isaiah 53 and other passages.  This wasn't a surprise or unplanned.  He couldn't have been unaware of his role in redemption only by the time He got to earth at Bethlehem, which sounds like you think that.  You would agree that He existed before Abraham.  So, at what point did He "become" obedient to God, even if you restrict that obedient only the redemptive role that He had?  If you don't mind, I'd like to also start another thread with you view of the NWT. 

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