Important Announcement

See here for an important message regarding the community which has become a read-only site as of October 31.

 
Post Reply
Page 1 of 3  •  1 2 3 Next
Switch to Forum Live View Koran-Kissing Popes & Other Things that go "Bump" in the Night
2 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2015 - 1:36PM #1
Thomas A Quinas
Posts: 1,970

From a new poster who goes by the pseudonym "Cammalus" comes this post from the Why Are So Many Noncatholics Bothered By The Pope? thread in the Catholic forum (under the general category of Christian Denominations).  I've decided to give him his "day in court" on the appropriate forum (just for "shins 'n' giggles").

Aug 16, 2015 -- 11:31PM, Cammalus wrote:

I think that one of the major things that offends Non Catholics - is the Fact that The Popes Declare, that the god of Islam, is the God of the Bible.


Then the Pope kissed His Quran and today the New Pope says absolutly Nothing about this.


Worshiping in a Traditional Latin Mass community as I do, I can say that plenty of Catholics aren't happy about what transpired at the Ecumenical Prayer Session at Assisi in '86.  To his credit, Pope Emeritus (then Pope) Benedict XVI acquiesced to the expressed concerns of the TLM communities concerning a repeat of the events, as I believe negotiations were still under way to attempt granting the SSPX canonical status as a legitimate apostolate (given a set of conditions which were ultimately rejected by the SSPX).


I believe that Catholics who seem OK with the Endless contradictions between the Quran and the Bible, are not even thinking about the matter in an Honest, realistic truthful light. And because Roman Catholics simply have no scriptures for their faith. They have no Bible. If You will remember * it took the Popes, 400 Years - AFTER 'Christ. to Produce a LATIN / Itallian Catholic Made ) - Translation of the Bible.


Now here's where your internal logic is gravely contradictory.


Why should Catholics care whether or not there are "Endless contradictions between the Quran and the Bible", seeing as how per your very own statement, "Roman Catholics simply have no scriptures for their faith. They have no Bible."  Assuming the above is true, it would be very odd indeed if there weren't OK with such "endless contradictions", as the matter simply doesn't concern them.  Try rereading this paragraph of yours in lieu of what I said, and see if you can tell me "with a straight face" that you have sufficiently reflected on the matter in "an Honest, realistic [and] truthful light."


In a less pertinent issue, it is grammatically unnecessary to capitalize words like "Endless" & "Honest", perhaps with the exception of "Honest Abe [Lincoln]".


Now moving right along ...


'THEN it took the Catholic Church Nearly 2000 Years'. *(( 1500 Years. ) to Produce a Bible translation into ANOTHER Language, OTHER That Latin.


People are confused with the Pope because - The bible is not a catholic Book. And Everything that the Catholic Believes, comes from the Authority in Rome. *( ITALY )


With all do respect, it is laborious to muddle through all of this "twaddle".  If the [b]ible is not a [C]atholic [b]ook (... You've accomplished the astonishing feat of (mis)capitalizing all three nouns in one conditional phrase, completing a grammatical "trifecta of shame".), and "[e]verything that the Catholic [b]elieves, comes from the [a]uthority in Rome.", then why on earth would anyone (besides you) be "confused with the Pope"?  The Bible, not being a Catholic book (according to you) isn't even supposed to be a variable in the equation you've concocted (for reasons beyond my ability to comprehend).


My friends - The Fact is that, the god of Islam, did not eXist before 700 AD. Islam, ( Before Your Prophet Mohammud ) had no Gospels, No Scriptures, no genealogies, no Artifacts, no Record of existance *'Anywhere at any time. ( Before Your Father Mohammud Arrived )


Non Catholics understand - VERY WELL that Mohammud is a Father of this Roman Catholic Faith. He is a prophet, Messenger and a Revelator to the Roman Catholic Church. And a spiritual Father.


Frankly, I've never heard such arrant nonsense before in my life, even coming from a non-Catholic!  (And believe me, I've heard plenty of arrant nonsense from non-Catholics.  Peruse this forum for 5 minutes and this will be painfully apparent.)


And Non Catholics also are seeing that Roman Catholics are SOLA Quran. The Quran Alone ( and Mohammud ) is the Only, SOLA single source for which Catholics make this wild claim.


So in the span of 10 sentences, Catholics go from having "no scriptures" to being "Sola Kurana"?


Are you a crank caller??  Are you a crank abuser?


Mohammuds message was strong enough for the Pope to Kiss, Hug and
Embrace His Quran. A book that declares openly that the God of Abraham as a basic liar and Jesus as an Evil individual who is basically from the Devil. And that Christians are to be condemned to eternal Hell.


I have asked Catholics about this popes actions and why that catholics are folowing these Papal ideas.


Do you see a rash of Catholics "kissing Korans" as they're leaving Mass?  What makes you think they're following any of these "Papal ideas"?


Following the message, Prophecy and revelations of Mohammud.- That have no basis, foundation No Fact, eXistance nor Validation in history. The Quran Alone confirms this Catholic faith. Perhaps someday we Non Catholics will persuade the pope to Denounce and repent from this terrible Islamic faith and Trust in Gods word and take our hand in sticking to Valid
History that is confirmed by the Scriptures.


the Roman Catholic Church Even has Affirmed that Mary is visiting Prophecy, Wisdom and Dreams and Visions to muslims. And they Declare that this is the Same Mary of scriptures. ? How can this Be. ? The pope simply seems LOST and out of toutch with all reality, to many, many non Catholics.


What is Mary saying to these Muslims?  This is all news to me.  Do you have any credible sources that the RCC affirms the veracity of these "visions"?  Typically this is a long, drawn-out process of investigation, taking years (if not in excess of a decade) of scrutiny before any formal declarations are pronounced.


While The Pope kissed His Quran - the Ancient Traditions of Non Catholics being Condemned. Still goes on, Un Repented, Un Denounced and Words Like the Words below linger and haunt non Catholics * Still on in the Catholic books, Many condemnations and hurtful words to Non Catholics, while the popes Kisses His Quran and Prays With Muslims, Facing mecca and Declares that the God of the Bible is Allah.


Never heard anything about "facing [M]ecca", although for most Roman Catholics, Mecca is East, and it's traditional for Catholics to orient their liturgical worship towards East. (This has been largely supplanted with the concept of "liturgical East", but that's a different topic for another thread.)


the Stomachs of Non Catholics are churning in hurt and sorrow.


'HERETICS do NOT have THE SAME GOD, the SAME CHRIST as CATHOLICS.'Tertullian: (Patrolo-giae Cursus Completus:
Series Graca, Fr. J. P. Migne, Paris: 1866, 1:1216)


As you value the insights of Tertullian, then surely you value his opinion on Catholicism. (No?)


In other words, if Catholicism considers Protestantism as heretical, then Protestants don't have the same God that Catholics have.  As a Protestant, why do you care whether adherents of a foreign god affirm that they & Muslims share the same God?  It's simply of little or no consequence to you whatsoever.

Holiness consists simply in doing God's will, and being just what God wants us to be.. -- St. Therese of Lisieux. For applicable reads: Uniformity with God’s Will by Saint Alphonsus Liguori ... or ... Story of a Soul
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2015 - 2:49PM #2
vra
Posts: 7,467

I only skimmed the OP because it's way too long for my level of interest, but Muslims do worship the same God as Catholics and Protestants do.  

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2015 - 5:38PM #3
Kemmer
Posts: 18,459

Non Catholics understand - VERY WELL that Mohammud is a Father of this Roman Catholic Faith. He is a prophet, Messenger and a Revelator to the Roman Catholic Church. And a spiritual Father.



This benighted soul must be a Mormon because "prophet, seer, and revelator" is what they call their exalted potentate.


"Traditional Latin mass community"??  Seriously?  Gah...!

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2015 - 6:56PM #4
Thomas A Quinas
Posts: 1,970

Aug 17, 2015 -- 2:49PM, vra wrote:

I only skimmed the OP because it's way too long for my level of interest, but Muslims do worship the same God as Catholics and Protestants do.


Being admittedly agnostic, how do you make such a qualification?


Another poster once worded it this way (more-or-less) in response to an atheist's contention that Jews, Christians & Muslims all worshipped the same God:


If three different people claimed to spot a unicorn in the woods, and you don't believe in unicorns, then what on earth would convict you in your assertion that all three spotted the same unicorn???


Admittedly you allow for the possibility of there being a God, so the analogy is imperfect.  Yet given the first condition, wouldn't you logically have to allow room for the other possibility? (i.e., that perhaps Muslims worship a different God than that of Catholics & Protestants?)


Not meaning to be finicky, but just sayin' ...Undecided

Holiness consists simply in doing God's will, and being just what God wants us to be.. -- St. Therese of Lisieux. For applicable reads: Uniformity with God’s Will by Saint Alphonsus Liguori ... or ... Story of a Soul
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2015 - 7:01PM #5
Thomas A Quinas
Posts: 1,970

Aug 17, 2015 -- 5:38PM, Kemmer wrote:

"Traditional Latin mass community"??  Seriously?  Gah...!


"Traditional" is a tad redundant, isn't it? (I'm unawares of any novel Latin mass communities.)


You can throw this one in the same boat as "traditional" marriage.Smile


In any event, our choir has plenty of vocalists at the upper end of the music scale (ala this one).  It's the lower end we're lacking in.


Holiness consists simply in doing God's will, and being just what God wants us to be.. -- St. Therese of Lisieux. For applicable reads: Uniformity with God’s Will by Saint Alphonsus Liguori ... or ... Story of a Soul
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2015 - 7:31PM #6
Kemmer
Posts: 18,459

Aug 17, 2015 -- 7:01PM, Thomas A Quinas wrote:


 "Traditional" is a tad redundant, isn't it? (I'm unawares of any novel Latin mass communities.)


You can throw this one in the same boat as "traditional" marriage.



Don't even start with "traditional marriage".  My two straight brothers have had five marriages between them, yet my partner and I are celibrating 40 years together this month.


In any event, our choir has plenty of vocalists at the upper end of the music scale (ala this one).  It's the lower end we're lacking in.



I'm not impresed.  The church we attend when we're in San Francisco---MHR, 95% gay couples and singles---is frequently visited and performed at by members of the San Francisco Opera and Symphony.  Congregational singing sounds like a Benedictine monastery because everyone pulls out all the stops.  Since many of us are ex-seminarians, we also know the Latin commons and propers.


BTW, we've attended performances of the SF Bach Choir.





Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2015 - 7:32PM #7
vra
Posts: 7,467

Aug 17, 2015 -- 6:56PM, Thomas A Quinas wrote:


Aug 17, 2015 -- 2:49PM, vra wrote:

I only skimmed the OP because it's way too long for my level of interest, but Muslims do worship the same God as Catholics and Protestants do.


Being admittedly agnostic, how do you make such a qualification?


Another poster once worded it this way (more-or-less) in response to an atheist's contention that Jews, Christians & Muslims all worshipped the same God:


If three different people claimed to spot a unicorn in the woods, and you don't believe in unicorns, then what on earth would convict you in your assertion that all three spotted the same unicorn???


Admittedly you allow for the possibility of there being a God, so the analogy is imperfect.  Yet given the first condition, wouldn't you logically have to allow room for the other possibility? (i.e., that perhaps Muslims worship a different God than that of Catholics & Protestants?)


Not meaning to be finicky, but just sayin' ...




First of all, Muslims claim to worship the same God, so at least from their point of view, that's what they're doing.  Secondly, a couple of names used for "God", namely "Eloheim" in Hebrew and "Allah" in Arabic, are from "El", which is from the Sumerian language and is a name for "God". 


Thirdly, the Qu'ran recognizes both Jews and Christians as being "People of the Book", and thus we link them together under the banner of being "Abrahamic".  Many Hindus believe that "Brahman", another name for "God", also is the same God the Abrahamics worship.


Fourthly, what my beliefs or lack of beliefs may be has no bearing on where I'm coming from on this.  I don't have to be a meteorologist in order to know whan it's raining.  Now whether I have enough sense to come out of the rain is another matter.

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2015 - 7:40PM #8
Kemmer
Posts: 18,459

I believe all religions in their own way worship the same god.  Who's to say Zeus/Jupiter wasn't God revealing himself to the Greeks and Romans according to their "lights".  Perhaps it was easier for them to assign different gods to God's various aspects.


Even the Neaderthals believe in "something" after death.

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2015 - 7:50PM #9
vra
Posts: 7,467

Aug 17, 2015 -- 7:40PM, Kemmer wrote:


I believe all religions in their own way worship the same god.  Who's to say Zeus/Jupiter wasn't God revealing himself to the Greeks and Romans according to their "lights".  Perhaps it was easier for them to assign different gods to God's various aspects.


Even the Neaderthals believe in "something" after death.




Probably what we call "Animism", based on what has been found at some of the burial sites.  

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2015 - 7:52PM #10
Thomas A Quinas
Posts: 1,970

Aug 17, 2015 -- 7:32PM, vra wrote:

First of all, Muslims claim to worship the same God, so at least from their point of view, that's what they're doing.  Secondly, a couple of names used for "God", namely "Eloheim" in Hebrew and "Allah" in Arabic, are from "El", which is from the Sumerian language and is a name for "God".


So far, so good ...


Thirdly, the Qu'ran recognizes both Jews and Christians as being "People of the Book", and thus we link them together under the banner of being "Abrahamic".


I know many Jewish posters on Beliefnet who assert precisely the opposite of what you affirm here, disparaging terms like "Abrahamic faiths" and "Judeo-Christianity".  Would you like me to provide evidence of this?  (It would be fairly easy for me to do.)


Many Hindus believe that "Brahman", another name for "God", also is the same God the Abrahamics worship.


OKayyyyyy ...


Fourthly, what my beliefs or lack of beliefs may be has no bearing on where I'm coming from on this.  I don't have to be a meteorologist in order to know whan it's raining.  Now whether I have enough sense to come out of the rain is another matter.


But even non-meteorologists believe in rain, so quite obviously your beliefs (or lack thereof) are relevant to the points you're making.  Seriously, how can you affirm that "Muslims worship the same God as Catholics & Protestants, who incidentally may (or may not) exist."?


Anyone with eyes can see the silliness of such an affirmation.

Holiness consists simply in doing God's will, and being just what God wants us to be.. -- St. Therese of Lisieux. For applicable reads: Uniformity with God’s Will by Saint Alphonsus Liguori ... or ... Story of a Soul
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 1 of 3  •  1 2 3 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook