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2 years ago  ::  Aug 12, 2015 - 9:58PM #1
Hmmm
Posts: 5,020

Okay, so what does Colossians 2:9 mean to Jehovah's Witnesses?

 because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily.

Thank you.

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2 years ago  ::  Aug 13, 2015 - 8:13AM #2
five_point_dad
Posts: 4,719

I'm not a JW, but this passage becomes a very problematic verse for the Watchtower Society or for any group espousing the ancient hersey of Arianism.  You'll notice Paul's emphasis on the fact that "the fulness" of deity dwells in Christ, not just a part or a form.  If deity is infinite; He has it all.  The word that is rendered "deity" only appears here.  Bauer, in his lexicon of koine Greek, defines it as, "Deity...used as abstract noun for THEOS [God]," and Bauer was a liberal.  Thayer, adds, "Godhead" and he draws a distinction between this word and the one used in Acts 17:29 which ascribed the quality of deity.  The word in Col. 2:9 ascribes all the attributes of God; they dwell in the body of Christ in their fullness. 

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2 years ago  ::  Aug 13, 2015 - 3:30PM #3
Hmmm
Posts: 5,020

Aug 13, 2015 -- 8:13AM, five_point_dad wrote:


I'm not a JW, but this passage becomes a very problematic verse for the Watchtower Society or for any group espousing the ancient hersey of Arianism.  You'll notice Paul's emphasis on the fact that "the fulness" of deity dwells in Christ, not just a part or a form.  If deity is infinite; He has it all.  The word that is rendered "deity" only appears here.  Bauer, in his lexicon of koine Greek, defines it as, "Deity...used as abstract noun for THEOS [God]," and Bauer was a liberal.  Thayer, adds, "Godhead" and he draws a distinction between this word and the one used in Acts 17:29 which ascribed the quality of deity.  The word in Col. 2:9 ascribes all the attributes of God; they dwell in the body of Christ in their fullness.



Hmmm. I wonder why eloquens hasn't responded with one of his 'drive-by' posts. Wink




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2 years ago  ::  Aug 16, 2015 - 7:54PM #4
Newtonian
Posts: 14,082

Hmmm - See"


wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989276#h...


Excerpt:


Colossians 2:9:


KJ reads: “In him [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead [Greek, the·oʹte·tos] bodily.” (A similar thought is conveyed by the renderings in NE, RS, JB, NAB, Dy.) However, NW reads: “It is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily.” (AT, We, and CKW read “God’s nature,” instead of “Godhead.” Compare 2 Peter 1:4.)


Admittedly, not everyone offers the same interpretation of Colossians 2:9. But what is in agreement with the rest of the inspired letter to the Colossians? Did Christ have in himself something that is his because he is God, part of a Trinity? Or is “the fullness” that dwells in him something that became his because of the decision of someone else? Colossians 1:19 (KJ, Dy) says that all fullness dwelt in Christ because it “pleased the Father” for this to be the case. NE says it was “by God’s own choice.”


Consider the immediate context of Colossians 2:9: In verse 8, readers are warned against being misled by those who advocate philosophy and human traditions. They are also told that in Christ “are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge” and are urged to “live in him” and to be “rooted and built up in him and established in the faith.” (Verses 3, 6, 7) It is in him, and not in the originators or the teachers of human philosophy, that a certain precious “fulness” dwells. Was the apostle Paul there saying that the “fulness” that was in Christ made Christ God himself? Not according to Colossians 3:1, where Christ is said to be “seated at the right hand of God.”—See KJ, Dy, TEV, NAB.


According to Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, the·oʹtes (the nominative form, from which the·oʹte·tos is derived) means “divinity, divine nature.” (Oxford, 1968, p. 792) Being truly “divinity,” or of “divine nature,” does not make Jesus as the Son of God coequal and coeternal with the Father, any more than the fact that all humans share “humanity” or “human nature” makes them coequal or all the same age.


See also our Bible Dictionary here:


wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001201#h...


Excerpt (see article for more details):


Finally, at 2 Peter 1:3, 4 the apostle shows that by virtue of “the precious and very grand promises” extended to faithful anointed Christians, they “may become sharers in divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world through lust.” Elsewhere in the Scriptures, Christians are referred to as ‘sharing’ with Christ in his sufferings, in a death like his, and in a resurrection like his to immortality as spirit creatures, becoming joint heirs with him in the heavenly Kingdom. (1Co 15:50-54; Php 3:10, 11; 1Pe 5:1; 2Pe 1:2-4; Re 20:6) Thus it is evident that the sharing of Christians in “divine nature” is a sharing with Christ in his glory.


_____________________


So, Hmmm, how do anointed Christians "become sharers in divine nature?" (2 Peter 1:4)

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2 years ago  ::  Aug 16, 2015 - 9:12PM #5
five_point_dad
Posts: 4,719

Aug 16, 2015 -- 7:54PM, Newtonian wrote:

Hmmm - See"


wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989276#h...


Excerpt:


Colossians 2:9:


KJ reads: “In him [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead [Greek, the·oʹte·tos] bodily.” (A similar thought is conveyed by the renderings in NE, RS, JB, NAB, Dy.) However, NW reads: “It is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily.” (AT, We, and CKW read “God’s nature,” instead of “Godhead.” Compare 2 Peter 1:4.)


Admittedly, not everyone offers the same interpretation of Colossians 2:9. But what is in agreement with the rest of the inspired letter to the Colossians? Did Christ have in himself something that is his because he is God, part of a Trinity? Or is “the fullness” that dwells in him something that became his because of the decision of someone else? Colossians 1:19 (KJ, Dy) says that all fullness dwelt in Christ because it “pleased the Father” for this to be the case. NE says it was “by God’s own choice.”


Consider the immediate context of Colossians 2:9: In verse 8, readers are warned against being misled by those who advocate philosophy and human traditions. They are also told that in Christ “are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge” and are urged to “live in him” and to be “rooted and built up in him and established in the faith.” (Verses 3, 6, 7) It is in him, and not in the originators or the teachers of human philosophy, that a certain precious “fulness” dwells. Was the apostle Paul there saying that the “fulness” that was in Christ made Christ God himself? Not according to Colossians 3:1, where Christ is said to be “seated at the right hand of God.”—See KJ, Dy, TEV, NAB.


According to Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, the·oʹtes (the nominative form, from which the·oʹte·tos is derived) means “divinity, divine nature.” (Oxford, 1968, p. 792) Being truly “divinity,” or of “divine nature,” does not make Jesus as the Son of God coequal and coeternal with the Father, any more than the fact that all humans share “humanity” or “human nature” makes them coequal or all the same age.


See also our Bible Dictionary here:


wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001201#h...


Excerpt (see article for more details):


Finally, at 2 Peter 1:3, 4 the apostle shows that by virtue of “the precious and very grand promises” extended to faithful anointed Christians, they “may become sharers in divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world through lust.” Elsewhere in the Scriptures, Christians are referred to as ‘sharing’ with Christ in his sufferings, in a death like his, and in a resurrection like his to immortality as spirit creatures, becoming joint heirs with him in the heavenly Kingdom. (1Co 15:50-54; Php 3:10, 11; 1Pe 5:1; 2Pe 1:2-4; Re 20:6) Thus it is evident that the sharing of Christians in “divine nature” is a sharing with Christ in his glory.


_____________________


So, Hmmm, how do anointed Christians "become sharers in divine nature?" (2 Peter 1:4)


Newt, your whole argument rests upon the idea that Col. 2:9 means the same thing or nearly the same thing as I Peter 1:4.  If you dust off your KIT, you'll notice that the word in Col. 2:9 indisputably means the very nature of God THEOTAS (#2320).  The word in I Peter 1:4 is PHUSIS (#5449) meaning a germination of behavior (i.e. becoming more and more Godlike).  That doesn't even involve the conspicuous differences in the context.  Again, you're trying to compare apples and oranges in a futile effort to hide the Trinity. 

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2 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2015 - 1:21AM #6
Hmmm
Posts: 5,020

Aug 16, 2015 -- 7:54PM, Newtonian wrote:


Hmmm - See"


wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989276#h...


Excerpt:


Colossians 2:9:


KJ reads: “In him [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead [Greek, the·oʹte·tos] bodily.” (A similar thought is conveyed by the renderings in NE, RS, JB, NAB, Dy.) However, NW reads: “It is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily.” (AT, We, and CKW read “God’s nature,” instead of “Godhead.” Compare 2 Peter 1:4.)


Admittedly, not everyone offers the same interpretation of Colossians 2:9. But what is in agreement with the rest of the inspired letter to the Colossians? Did Christ have in himself something that is his because he is God, part of a Trinity? Or is “the fullness” that dwells in him something that became his because of the decision of someone else? Colossians 1:19 (KJ, Dy) says that all fullness dwelt in Christ because it “pleased the Father” for this to be the case. NE says it was “by God’s own choice.”


Consider the immediate context of Colossians 2:9: In verse 8, readers are warned against being misled by those who advocate philosophy and human traditions. They are also told that in Christ “are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge” and are urged to “live in him” and to be “rooted and built up in him and established in the faith.” (Verses 3, 6, 7) It is in him, and not in the originators or the teachers of human philosophy, that a certain precious “fulness” dwells. Was the apostle Paul there saying that the “fulness” that was in Christ made Christ God himself? Not according to Colossians 3:1, where Christ is said to be “seated at the right hand of God.”—See KJ, Dy, TEV, NAB.


According to Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, the·oʹtes (the nominative form, from which the·oʹte·tos is derived) means “divinity, divine nature.” (Oxford, 1968, p. 792) Being truly “divinity,” or of “divine nature,” does not make Jesus as the Son of God coequal and coeternal with the Father, any more than the fact that all humans share “humanity” or “human nature” makes them coequal or all the same age.


See also our Bible Dictionary here:


wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001201#h...


Excerpt (see article for more details):


Finally, at 2 Peter 1:3, 4 the apostle shows that by virtue of “the precious and very grand promises” extended to faithful anointed Christians, they “may become sharers in divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world through lust.” Elsewhere in the Scriptures, Christians are referred to as ‘sharing’ with Christ in his sufferings, in a death like his, and in a resurrection like his to immortality as spirit creatures, becoming joint heirs with him in the heavenly Kingdom. (1Co 15:50-54; Php 3:10, 11; 1Pe 5:1; 2Pe 1:2-4; Re 20:6) Thus it is evident that the sharing of Christians in “divine nature” is a sharing with Christ in his glory.


_____________________


So, Hmmm, how do anointed Christians "become sharers in divine nature?" (2 Peter 1:4)




I'm sorry, Newtonian, but you seemed to have misunderstood me...or perhaps I didn't really make myself clear. But what I was wanting to know was why does the NWT say: because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily in Colossians 2:9? What does this verse mean by "bodily"?

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2 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2015 - 1:34AM #7
Hmmm
Posts: 5,020

Also, see:


biblehub.com/greek/4985.htm


en.allexperts.com/q/Greek-2004/Biblical-...

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2 years ago  ::  Aug 20, 2015 - 4:30PM #8
Hmmm
Posts: 5,020

Aug 17, 2015 -- 1:21AM, Hmmm wrote:


I'm sorry, Newtonian, but you seemed to have misunderstood me...or perhaps I didn't really make myself clear. But what I was wanting to know was why does the NWT say: because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily in Colossians 2:9? What does this verse mean by "bodily"?



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2 years ago  ::  Aug 20, 2015 - 6:50PM #9
Newtonian
Posts: 14,082

Aug 17, 2015 -- 1:21AM, Hmmm wrote:


Aug 16, 2015 -- 7:54PM, Newtonian wrote:


Hmmm - See"


wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989276#h...


Excerpt:


Colossians 2:9:


KJ reads: “In him [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead [Greek, the·oʹte·tos] bodily.” (A similar thought is conveyed by the renderings in NE, RS, JB, NAB, Dy.) However, NW reads: “It is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily.” (AT, We, and CKW read “God’s nature,” instead of “Godhead.” Compare 2 Peter 1:4.)


Admittedly, not everyone offers the same interpretation of Colossians 2:9. But what is in agreement with the rest of the inspired letter to the Colossians? Did Christ have in himself something that is his because he is God, part of a Trinity? Or is “the fullness” that dwells in him something that became his because of the decision of someone else? Colossians 1:19 (KJ, Dy) says that all fullness dwelt in Christ because it “pleased the Father” for this to be the case. NE says it was “by God’s own choice.”


Consider the immediate context of Colossians 2:9: In verse 8, readers are warned against being misled by those who advocate philosophy and human traditions. They are also told that in Christ “are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge” and are urged to “live in him” and to be “rooted and built up in him and established in the faith.” (Verses 3, 6, 7) It is in him, and not in the originators or the teachers of human philosophy, that a certain precious “fulness” dwells. Was the apostle Paul there saying that the “fulness” that was in Christ made Christ God himself? Not according to Colossians 3:1, where Christ is said to be “seated at the right hand of God.”—See KJ, Dy, TEV, NAB.


According to Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, the·oʹtes (the nominative form, from which the·oʹte·tos is derived) means “divinity, divine nature.” (Oxford, 1968, p. 792) Being truly “divinity,” or of “divine nature,” does not make Jesus as the Son of God coequal and coeternal with the Father, any more than the fact that all humans share “humanity” or “human nature” makes them coequal or all the same age.


See also our Bible Dictionary here:


wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001201#h...


Excerpt (see article for more details):


Finally, at 2 Peter 1:3, 4 the apostle shows that by virtue of “the precious and very grand promises” extended to faithful anointed Christians, they “may become sharers in divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world through lust.” Elsewhere in the Scriptures, Christians are referred to as ‘sharing’ with Christ in his sufferings, in a death like his, and in a resurrection like his to immortality as spirit creatures, becoming joint heirs with him in the heavenly Kingdom. (1Co 15:50-54; Php 3:10, 11; 1Pe 5:1; 2Pe 1:2-4; Re 20:6) Thus it is evident that the sharing of Christians in “divine nature” is a sharing with Christ in his glory.


_____________________


So, Hmmm, how do anointed Christians "become sharers in divine nature?" (2 Peter 1:4)




I'm sorry, Newtonian, but you seemed to have misunderstood me...or perhaps I didn't really make myself clear. But what I was wanting to know was why does the NWT say: because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily in Colossians 2:9? What does this verse mean by "bodily"?




Simply: the Divine nature, including God's wisdom and power, are in Jesus - in his body.


In the context, the divine quality involves the fullness (which FPD disputes) - and this fullness is in Jesus - see this contextual cross reference:


(Colossians 1:19) 19 because God was pleased to have all fullness to dwell in him. . .


Or are you asking how the fullness of divine quality dwells in Jesus and his followers? (2 Peter 1:4)


Two additional cross references that should help (there are others):


(John 1:16) For we all received from his fullness, even undeserved kindness upon undeserved kindness.


(Colossians 2:3) Carefully concealed in him are all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge.


Compare Proverbs 8:22-31 - Jesus is God's wisdom personified - cf.:


(1 Corinthians 1:24) . . .Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.



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2 years ago  ::  Aug 20, 2015 - 7:46PM #10
Newtonian
Posts: 14,082

Hmmm - Here are a couple of variant interpretations of "bodily" -


From the Pulpit commentary, just an excerpt:


The literal sense of "bodily" (maintained by Meyer, Alford, Ellicott, Lightfoot, Hofmann, after Chrysostom and Athanasius) has been avoided by those who render it "wholly" (Jerome); "essentially, substantially" (Cyril, Theophylact, Calvin, Klopper), as opposed to "relatively" or "partially;" "truly" (Augustine, Erasmus, Bengel, Bleek), as opposed to "figuretively" (ver. 17).


From Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary:


bodily—not merely as before His incarnation, but now "bodily in Him" as the incarnate word (Joh 1:14, 18). Believers, by union with Him, partake of His fulness of the divine nature (Joh 1:16; 2Pe 1:4; see on [2415]Eph 3:19).


From our literature:


wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2009529#h=15


10 “It is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily.” (Col. 1:19; 2:9) Having been with his heavenly Father for aeons of time, Jesus knows better than anyone else the personality and will of God. Throughout his earthly ministry, Jesus taught others what his Father had taught him and reflected in his actions the qualities that his Father had nurtured in him. That is why Jesus could say: “He that has seen me has seen the Father also.” (John 14:9) All the wisdom and knowledge of God are hidden, or are dwelling, in Christ, and there is no better way for us to learn about Jehovah than by carefully learning all that we can about Jesus.


The 4/1/78 Watchtower summarizes (pp. 17,18):


Note that the apostle Paul continues: “God saw good for all fullness to dwell in him.” (Col. 1:19) According to God’s good pleasure, Jesus Christ occupies the foremost place in the congregation, not only as regards preeminence and authority, but also in having the “fullness” of everything that Christians need. The Son of God is the embodiment of divine qualities, including wisdom. Hence, he, not any human on earth, is the one to whom true Christians look as their exemplar and the appointed source of guidance and instruction.

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