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Switch to Forum Live View What are Apostates and Anti-Christs?
2 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2015 - 11:24AM #1
mrjordan
Posts: 3,195

For my brothers and sisters. I wish to remind my wonderful brothers and sisters of the fine instruction we receive from the Bible.


Identifying Apostates


1 Timothy 6:3, 4
"If any man teaches another doctrine and does not agree with the wholesome instruction, which is from our Lord Jesus Christ, nor with the teaching that is in harmony with godly devotion, he is puffed up with pride and does not understand anything. He is obsessed with arguments and debates about words. These things give rise to envy, strife, slander, wicked suspicions,"

2 John 9
"Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son.

Romans 16:18
"For men of that sort are slaves, not of our Lord Christ, but of their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattering speech they seduce the hearts of unsuspecting ones."

How to Deal with Apostates

2 John 10, 11
"
If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him.
11 For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works."

Romans 16:17
"Now I urge you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who create divisions and causes for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them."

Identifing Antichrists

2 John 7
"For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist."

1 John 2:22
"Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son."

Trinity doctrine that says Jesus is Almighty God and deny Jehovah as the only true God would fit these definitions. The word 'anti' means this person will teach the exact opposite of what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches there is no Hellfire, no eternal soul in humans, not everyone will go to heaven, Jesus actually was dead for three days and Jehovah doesn't share the title 'Most High'. Those that don't teach these things are antichrist and part of the 'Man of Lawlessness'. These antichrist show the opposite of love and righteousness. (2 Th 2:3-5, 2 Pe 2:1)

How to Deal with Antichrists

Titus 3:9
"But have nothing to do with foolish arguments and genealogies and disputes and fights over the Law, for they are unprofitable and futile."

2 Thessalonians 2:1, 2
“Brothers, . . . we request of you not to be quickly shaken from your reason.”

2 Timothy 2:14
"Keep reminding them of these things, instructing them before God not to fight about words, something of no usefulness at all because it harms those listening."

2 Timothy 2:23
"Further, reject foolish and ignorant debates, knowing that they produce fights."


Can an Antichrist or one that as never been a 'Witness' be an Apostate?


Yes. There are those that for years know what Jehovah's Witnesses follow, though never been a Witness. However these understand the truth of the Bible but flat reject it and continue to 'draw away the disciples after themselves'. They obey the same master.  wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989207


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2 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2015 - 12:40PM #2
marken
Posts: 3,749

thank you,  BrotherJordan,  for  these  fine  reminders.   I  am  so  thankful  for  fellowship  with  fine  persons  like  yourself.   with  affection  from  Marken

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2015 - 12:47PM #3
mrjordan
Posts: 3,195

Jul 13, 2015 -- 12:40PM, marken wrote:


thank you,  BrotherJordan,  for  these  fine  reminders.   I  am  so  thankful  for  fellowship  with  fine  persons  like  yourself.   with  affection  from  Marken




I too am so thankful for Jehovah's Kingdom and it's loving citizens like you Marken! Praise Jah!

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2015 - 1:09PM #4
woodzz
Posts: 2,157

Jul 13, 2015 -- 11:24AM, mrjordan wrote:


For my brothers and sisters. I wish to remind my wonderful brothers and sisters of the fine instruction we receive from the Bible.




Hi there MJ,


Though you are addressing your post only to JWs, you put it on the forum that allows Christians and others to discuss your beliefs with you.  Assuming that wasn't an oversight on your part, I'll go ahead with the idea that we all are welcome to join in your little discussion about apostates and antichrists.  But before I post too much more, please tell me whether or not that's a fair assumption.



Thanks, Holly




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2 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2015 - 1:27PM #5
Kemmer
Posts: 18,459

Jul 13, 2015 -- 11:24AM, mrjordan wrote:


Can an Antichrist or one that as never been a 'Witness' be an Apostate?


Yes. There are those that for years know what Jehovah's Witnesses follow, though never been a Witness. However these understand the truth of the Bible but flat reject it and continue to 'draw away the disciples after themselves'. 



Permit me to simplify the JW definition of "apostate":


a)  Apostate:  A Jehovahs Witness who has become fed up with the endless stream of contradictions from the WBTS and has left the Jehovahs Witnesses for another tradition, encouraging others to do likewise.


 There are too many various definitions of what an antichrist is.  I have read in blogs and posts that President Obama and the pope are antichrists, so we may assume an antichrist is simply a term given to someone who is disliked for one reason or another.


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2 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2015 - 2:00PM #6
woodzz
Posts: 2,157

Jul 13, 2015 -- 1:27PM, Kemmer wrote:


Permit me to simplify the JW definition of "apostate":


a)  Apostate:  A Jehovahs Witness who has become fed up with the endless stream of contradictions from the WBTS and has left the Jehovahs Witnesses for another tradition, encouraging others to do likewise.



Succinct and to the point. Wink


 

Jul 13, 2015 -- 1:27PM, Kemmer wrote:

There are too many various definitions of what an antichrist is.  I have read in blogs and posts that President Obama and the pope are antichrists, so we may assume an antichrist is simply a term given to someone who is disliked for one reason or another.



Here's an interesting tidbit: in 1914 the WTS was saying the child born in Rev. 12 was the antichrist.  They printed it in their book of 1917, The Finished Mystery: www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/finishedmyster...


Now they claim that was the birth of Kingdom.  Did they miss it, or what?



Holly

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2015 - 2:07PM #7
AnnOMaly
Posts: 3,460


Can an Antichrist or one that as never been a 'Witness' be an Apostate?


Yes. There are those that for years know what Jehovah's Witnesses follow, though never been a Witness. However these understand the truth of the Bible but flat reject it and continue to 'draw away the disciples after themselves'.  wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989207




Hang on. That isn't what the Reasoning book says. It doesn't say 'one that has never been a "Witness" [can] be an Apostate.'


It says that, among those that can be counted as antichrists, apostates rank among them and it cites ...


1 John 2:18, 19: “There have come to be many antichrists . . . They went out from us, but they were not of our sort.”



Unfortunately, Watchtower blanketly applies this scripture to those who were a part of the CCoJWs but formally left, i.e. former JWs - no matter if they remain Christians (pro-Christ) or not.


*** Insight Vol. 1 p. 116 Antichrist ***
John specifically mentions apostates as among those of the antichrist by referring to those who “went out from us,” abandoning the Christian congregation. (1 Jo 2:18, 19)



Therefore, Watchtower does not apply the term 'apostate' to never-been-JWs in the source you reference, mrj.

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2015 - 3:22PM #8
woodzz
Posts: 2,157

Jul 13, 2015 -- 1:27PM, Kemmer wrote:


Permit me to simplify the JW definition of "apostate":




The simple definition from the pages of the WT is a JW who disagrees with even just ONE of their teachings.  Incredibly, they use the example of being wrong about the timing of the resurrection! 


With that said, they are calling themselves apostates because they've been wrong about the timing of the resurrection at least once already by their own admission of changing the date from 1878 to 1918. 


And they are probably researching how to change 1918 when they drop 1914.


Background support: The Watchtower, April 1, 1986, page 31, QFR.



Holly

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2015 - 4:11PM #9
woodzz
Posts: 2,157

Jul 13, 2015 -- 11:24AM, mrjordan wrote:


Identifying Apostates

1 Timothy 6:3, 4
"If any man teaches another doctrine and does not agree with the wholesome instruction, which is from our Lord Jesus Christ, nor with the teaching that is in harmony with godly devotion, he is puffed up with pride and does not understand anything. He is obsessed with arguments and debates about words. These things give rise to envy, strife, slander, wicked suspicions,"



Let’s examine the WTS in light of the first scripture you posted in the OP, and in that light we’ll look at the foremost doctrine of JWs---the faithful slave of Matthew 24:45:


1 Timothy 6:3, 4
"If any man teaches another doctrine and does not agree with the wholesome instruction, which is from our Lord Jesus Christ, nor with the teaching that is in harmony with godly devotion, 4 he is puffed up with pride and does not understand anything. He is obsessed with arguments and debates about words. These things give rise to envy, strife, slander, wicked suspicions,"


Russell began back in the 1870’s (when you say Jehovah was guiding him to rediscover Bible truths) with the teaching that the faithful and wise servant was the Body of Christ (the 144,000).


1. In a few years he apostatized from that doctrine and began to teach that HE alone was the faithful slave.


That doctrine continued to be taught for more than a decade after his death and was said to be an “indisputable fact”.  It was also said that anyone who abandoned or repudiated them was guilty of abandoning and repudiating Christ Jesus himself.


2. And then in 1927 Rutherford himself abandoned and repudiated that “indisputable fact” by saying that leaving out the large proportion of the body members of Christ  did “violence to the scripture.” 


And until October of 2012, that was the doctrine JWs were teaching.


3. But then their religious leaders on the governing body of the WTS decided to teach another doctrine, limiting the faithful slave to just themselves and leaving out quite a large proportion of the body members of Christ, something they used to say did violence to the scripture.


So how many times did the WTS fulfill 1 Timothy 6:3,4, teaching another doctrine and not agreeing with what had been up to then considered “the wholesome instruction, which is from our Lord Jesus Christ”?


I identify them as being apostates three times just on this doctrine. 


What do you come up with?



Holly


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2 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2015 - 6:55PM #10
woodzz
Posts: 2,157

Jul 13, 2015 -- 11:24AM, mrjordan wrote:


 Identifying Apostates

2 John 9
"Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. 



Moving on to the next scripture you posted for identifying apostates and how it applies to the WTS.


Has the governing body of JWs pushed ahead or have they remained in the teachings of the Christ?


Well, the question is: if the former teaching was from God, why are you changing it; and if it wasn't from God, why were you preaching it?


The man who took over after your founder, C.T. Russell, died, said that going against Russell's teachings was the same as going against the Lord Jesus himself.  But then he pushed ahead and went against Russell's teaching and led the WTS into what he had said was repudiation of the Lord Jesus.


So there we have another apostate identifying mark on the WTS, from it's own leaders.




Holly

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