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Switch to Forum Live View Is Original Sin still a Catholic Dogma?
2 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2015 - 2:49PM #1
AristotlesChild
Posts: 1,947
When I was growing up and going to Catholic school, we were all taught the Catholic dogma of Original Sin because of which everyone had  inherited the "stain" of Adam's sin. 

If they didn't get baptized, they went to Hell.

The only exception to this was the Immaculate Conception by which Mary was preserved free of the guilt of Original Sin. 

Do all good Catholics have to still believe in the Dogma of Original Sin, or has this infallible dogma been quietly dropped? 
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2015 - 10:36AM #2
world citizen
Posts: 6,480

[Post copied from EENS thread where it was off topic and hijacked this author's intent - wc]


CA:  This is really just part of the EENS topic (since the Sacrament of Baptism is the first Rite of Initiation into the Catholic Church), so I am responding here.  Yes, "good Catholics" still must accept the doctrine of Original Sin, however you (as usual) have the teaching on the Immaculate Conception (IC) wrong.  The definition on the IC states that the Blessed Virgin was preserved from the stain of Original Sin, not the guilt - which is why some maintain that she did indeed die before she was bodily assumed into Heaven.  Will you admit your error here?  


AC:  RESPONSE: 


There's no "error" to admit. The guilt of Original Sin which everyone inherits is often referred to as the stain of Original sin.. I’m sorry if you are confused on that point. Perhaps if you read more widely, you’ll understand.


Council of Trent, Fifth Session


5. If any one denies, that, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away; but says that it is only rased, or not imputed; let him be anathema. ….


This same holy Synod doth nevertheless declare, that it is not its intention to include in this decree, where original sin is treated of, the blessed and immaculate Virgin Mary, the mother of God; but that the constitutions of Pope Sixtus IV., of happy memory, are to be observed, under the pains contained in the said constitutions, which it renews.



Ineffabilis Deus


Apostolic Constitution issued by Pope Pius IX on December 8, 1854.


"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful."


Catholic Encyclopedia Immaculate Conception


Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin.

Blessed is he who mingleth with all men in a spirit of utmost kindliness and love.  ~Baha'u'llah
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2015 - 11:01AM #3
weberhome02
Posts: 3,398

"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful."


Seeing as that doctrine is not revealed in the New Testament; then Catholics are pretty much left with no recourse but to take Rome's word for it.


================================

Moderated by world citizen on Jun 28, 2015 - 11:20AM
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2015 - 11:07AM #4
Kemmer
Posts: 18,459

I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly wasn't born carrying a load of sin, supposedly originating with a fictional character.


MARRIAGE EQUALITY REGNAT!  Cool

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2015 - 12:36PM #5
AristotlesChild
Posts: 1,947

Members of the Orthodox Church and members of the Eastern Rite Churches (in communion with Rome) do not accept the Roman Catholic Church’s teaching on original sin infallible or not. And since they do not, it makes no sense to have Mary preserved from the “stain” of original sin since everyone is without the guilt of original sin. So they don’t believe in the Immaculate Conception either. Thus the Eastern Rite Catholics can drop two infallible dogmas and remain Roman Catholics.


The teaching that all of us inherit the guilt of Adam’s sin was developed by Augustine using a faulty Old Latin New Testament copy of Paul’s Roman’s 7:12. The Latin Vulgate version, which said that death spread because of Adam "in whom “  [in quo] all sinned. So according to Augustine, not St Paul, all people are personally guilty of Adam’s sin even though it was committed before they were conceived. Original sin, or the stain of original sin, was known as the “hereditary sin.” The Greek Church never picked up this blunder which forms the basis for so much Catholic dogma.


Curiously, although the “in whom” has been removed from modern bibles (see New American Bible (Catholic) and the New Revised Standard Version (World Council of Churches), the old Douay Rheims retains it for doctrinal reasons. Also so  it doesn’t contradict the infallible teaching of the Council of Trent.


And originally it was the teaching that if anyone died without being baptized (even infants) they went straight to Hell. But in time, it was realized that that was pretty mean of God sending all those kids to hell, so the doctrine of “Limbo” was invented. This was a place of natural happiness but without the Beatific Vision. But more recently, that teaching too has been dropped. As George Carlin, who described himself as a recovering Irish Catholic, once suggested, now we must ship the kids’ souls into space or something.


It's irreformable "dogma." You just have to believe it.  Until it changes.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 30, 2015 - 8:57AM #6
jlb32168
Posts: 15,431

Jun 27, 2015 -- 2:49PM, AristotlesChild wrote:

When I was growing up and going to Catholic school, we were all taught the Catholic dogma of Original Sin because of which everyone had  inherited the "stain" of Adam's sin. 

If they didn't get baptized, they went to Hell.


Didn't they teach that unbaptised babies and the righteous prophets and other righteous OT figures went to Limbo, LLes?


Isn't it a shame when the Eastern Orthodox believer knows your Church's teaching better than you do?

Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 30, 2015 - 9:32AM #7
AristotlesChild
Posts: 1,947

Jun 30, 2015 -- 8:57AM, jlb32168 wrote:


Jun 27, 2015 -- 2:49PM, AristotlesChild wrote:

When I was growing up and going to Catholic school, we were all taught the Catholic dogma of Original Sin because of which everyone had  inherited the "stain" of Adam's sin. 

If they didn't get baptized, they went to Hell.



>>Didn't they teach that unbaptised babies and the righteous prophets and other righteous OT figures went to Limbo, LLes?>>


Isn't it a shame when the Eastern Orthodox believer knows your Church's teaching better than you do?




RESPONSE:


Obviously, he doesn't.


The Limbo infantus doctrine for unbaptized infants was developed about 1300, but is now defunct. So we don't really knows where the souls of these kids are sent.


Curiously, the Limbus patrum teaching  is based on Jewish tradition. While it was more or less believed by many, it was never Catholic dogma. (If you claim otherwise, please provide a citation to your reference).


So as things stand if you believe the current Catholic dogma, baptism and church membership are required to avoid damnation. All those who have never heard of Christ or cannot in conscience accept the existence of God are damned to hell. But curiously, Vatican II reversed this teaching in Lumen Gentium.


But I must comment the EOC for rejecting the Roman Catholic Dogma on Original Sin and the Immaculate Conception. It's too bad that the EOC accepts the Assumption legend which ws developed about the 5th century.



"There are those who know not, but  know not that they know not......etc."

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 30, 2015 - 7:16PM #8
jlb32168
Posts: 15,431

Jun 30, 2015 -- 9:32AM, AristotlesChild wrote:

The Limbo infantus doctrine for unbaptized infants was developed about 1300, but is now defunct. So we don't really knows where the souls of these kids are sent.


Do you have an authoritative RC source that says that Limbo has fallen into disrepute and is now defunct?

Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 01, 2015 - 10:34AM #9
AristotlesChild
Posts: 1,947

Jun 30, 2015 -- 7:16PM, jlb32168 wrote:


Jun 30, 2015 -- 9:32AM, AristotlesChild wrote:

The Limbo infantus doctrine for unbaptized infants was developed about 1300, but is now defunct. So we don't really knows where the souls of these kids are sent.


Do you have an authoritative RC source that says that Limbo has fallen into disrepute and is now defunct?




RESPONSE:


Of course! Me!Wink


But if you's like another "authoritative RC source" there is this from the Vatican.


www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations...


INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION THE HOPE OF SALVATION FOR INFANTS 
WHO DIE WITHOUT BEING BAPTISED


It is clear that the traditional teaching on this topic has concentrated on the theory of limbo, understood as a state which includes the souls of infants who die subject to original sin and without baptism, and who, therefore, neither merit the beatific vision, nor yet are subjected to any punishment, because they are not guilty of any personal sin. This theory, elaborated by theologians beginning in the Middle Ages, never entered into the dogmatic definitions of the Magisterium, even if that same Magisterium did at times mention the theory in its ordinary teaching up until the Second Vatican Council. It remains therefore a possible theological hypothesis. However, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1992), the theory of limbo is not mentioned. Rather, the Catechism teaches that infants who die without baptism are entrusted by the Church to the mercy of God, as is shown in the specific funeral rite for such children. The principle that God desires the salvation of all people gives rise to the hope that there is a path to salvation for infants who die without baptism (cf. CCC1261), and therefore also to the theological desire to find a coherent and logical connection between the diverse affirmations of the Catholic faith: the universal salvific will of God; the unicity of the mediation of Christ; the necessity of baptism for salvation; the universal action of grace in relation to the sacraments; the link between original sin and the deprivation of the beatific vision; the creation of man “in Christ”.


Another "traditional" teaching bites the dust!


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2 years ago  ::  Jul 03, 2015 - 2:27PM #10
Cathapol
Posts: 918

Jun 28, 2015 -- 10:36AM, world citizen wrote:


[Post copied from EENS thread where it was off topic and hijacked this author's intent - wc]




CA:  Original Sin really is part of the EENS debate, there was no intent to hijack here.  I do, however, submit to the moderator decision to separate the topic as it can stand alone too.  I've been in many debates with strict adherents to EENS, and Original Sin, Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood, etc. are all part of the EENS debate.  One of Fr. Feeney's main arguments was that BOD or BOB did not wash away the stain of Original Sin - and without the formal initiation into the Catholic Church (water Baptism) there is no salvation.  So, we have two threads on the topic now.

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