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Switch to Forum Live View Why is the Temple Mount Sacred to the Jewish People?
2 years ago  ::  Oct 31, 2015 - 8:12AM #81
Ibn
Posts: 6,037

May 27, 2015 -- 4:28AM, Shusha wrote:


The Temple was not there but Jews were still there for 5 centuries after the destruction of the Temple and so was the Mount. But the Jews had stopped praying there. Why if it was still holy to them? 


It is now Muslims' own holy site as their "Temples" are there and they are praying there whilst you haven't done so for centuries.



Ibn,


The problem with your argument is that it justifies the destruction of buildings as a means to transfer ownership from one peoples to another.  


Did you really intend to go there?  



The Jewish people were invaded, defeated in war, ethnically cleansed and prevented from returning.  Surely, you can't be suggesting this is the morally correct or morally justifiable way to transfer ownership of holy places?




Moderator's note:  Last hours of posting, there is an error in this post and the attributions are reversed.  Ibn wrote the quoted section incorrectly labelled as Shusha and I wrote the body, incorrectly attributed to Ibn.  

Moderated by Shusha on Oct 31, 2015 - 06:20PM
Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.
(Winston Churchill)
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2 years ago  ::  Oct 31, 2015 - 8:27AM #82
Ibn
Posts: 6,037

May 27, 2015 -- 3:57AM, Shusha wrote:


ffb wrote:  Converting means taking on the Mosaic covenant as well. One does not convert to “Abrahamism”. You will receive the fruits of the Abrahamic covenant when you convert, but to convert you have to accept a whole lot more.


The following is a bit simplistic, but possibly might help Ibn understand:


There is a difference between a covenant and a contract in legal terms.  A covenant is a unilateral promise in which one person agrees to do something.  This promise is unconditional and does not depend on the actions of another party.  The covenantor simply agrees to do the thing.  


A contract is an agreement between two parties where each agrees to do something.  It is a mutal agreement and is conditional upon both parties holding up their end of the bargain.   


The Abrahamic covenant is a true covenant.  G-d promises.  We don't do anything.  


The Mosaic covenant is a contract.  If...then...  G-d promises.  We promise.  Conditions are outlined.


Mosaic covenant is a contract, and so is Abrahamic covenant:


Genesis 17:9-14


And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.


This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.


And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.


And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.


He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.


And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.


Circumcision is not the whole of the covenant with Abraham but only part of the covenant. Walking before Him by obeying Him is also part of the covenant. If someone has told you that you do not need to do anything but you still qualify for blessings, you have another thing coming. Shirking your responsibilities won't bring blessings for you as history has testified.

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.
(Winston Churchill)
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2 years ago  ::  Oct 31, 2015 - 8:38AM #83
Ibn
Posts: 6,037

May 27, 2015 -- 4:14AM, Shusha wrote:


It is also my understanding that conversion is not conditional on perfectly obeying G-d. Its not even conditional on trying to perfectly obey G-d.   (Though, of course, sincerely attempting to fulfill one's obligations as a Jew is necessary).


Exactly! Attempting to fulfill one's responsibilities (your side of the covenant) is necessary.  


May 27, 2015 -- 4:14AM, Shusha wrote:

It's conditional on accepting the yoke (blessing) of the commandments and the shared communal consequences of that yoke (blessing).


Blessing is not "yoke" but responsibilities (your side of the covenant) is the "yoke". Blessing is not unconditional license.  


May 27, 2015 -- 4:14AM, Shusha wrote:

That might be a really subtle distinction, but it seems important to me in the context of this conversation.


Back to the drawing board!

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.
(Winston Churchill)
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2 years ago  ::  Oct 31, 2015 - 9:05AM #84
Ibn
Posts: 6,037

May 26, 2015 -- 9:28PM, ffb wrote:


Joshua 5:6 For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD: unto whom the LORD sware that he would not shew them the land, which the LORD sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey.


So unless God is a liar, the land was sworn to give. One generation didn’t merit it, but the next does, simply by being born.


One generation did not merit it because they had disobeyed God. They too would have merited  it if being born in the family was the only condition for the land.


I rest my case.

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.
(Winston Churchill)
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