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Switch to Forum Live View THE Fundamental Issue: AUTHORITY
2 years ago  ::  Oct 12, 2015 - 9:33PM #301
Cathapol
Posts: 918

Oct 11, 2015 -- 5:06PM, AristotlesChild wrote:


RESPONSE: My conclusions ae based on the evidence I presented.


Peter was never a bishop of either the Jerusalem community or the Christian community at Rome, so there is no “bishoprick” involved.




And that's MY point!  Your conclusions are not based upon evidence - but on a lack of evidence, in short, argumentum ex nihilo - an argument from nothing.  

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 13, 2015 - 9:41AM #302
AristotlesChild
Posts: 1,947

Oct 12, 2015 -- 9:33PM, Cathapol wrote:


Oct 11, 2015 -- 5:06PM, AristotlesChild wrote:


RESPONSE: My conclusions ae based on the evidence I presented.


Peter was never a bishop of either the Jerusalem community or the Christian community at Rome, so there is no “bishoprick” involved.




And that's MY point!  Your conclusions are not based upon evidence - but on a lack of evidence, in short, argumentum ex nihilo - an argument from nothing.  




RESPONSE:


No. Reread my previous post on this same subject. There is plenty of evidence that Peter was not in Rome. He is not recorded being there and he is not recorded as having done anything there.


We know that none of Paul's Epistles say that Peter was in Rome. THe last four "Prision Epistles" written while Paul was in Rome are the most significant. Paul is also quotes as saying "Only Mark is with me."


...we possess no precise information regarding the details of his Roman sojourn (Kirsch J.P. Transcribed by Gerard Haffner. St. Peter, Prince of the Apostles. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XI. Copyright © 1911 by Robert Appleton Company. Online Edition Copyright © 2003 by K. Knight. Nihil Obstat, February 1, 1911. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York).


The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, date range 80-120 AD


But not to dwell upon ancient examples, let us come to the most recent spiritual heroes. Let us take the noble examples furnished in our own generation. Through envy and jealousy, the greatest and most righteous pillars [of the Church] have been persecuted and put to death. Let us set before our eyes the illustrious apostles. Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labors and when he had at length suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him. Owing to envy, Paul also obtained the reward of patient endurance, after being seven times thrown into captivity, compelled to flee, and stoned. After preaching both in the east and west, he gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, having taught righteousness to the whole world, and come to the extreme limit of the west, and suffered martyrdom under the prefects. Thus was he removed from the world, and went into the holy place, having proved himself a striking example of patience.


Paul is described as being in the East and West and being martyred by the Romans. There is no such claim about Peter.


Repeating the same error does not make it any less of an error.

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 13, 2015 - 12:20PM #303
AristotlesChild
Posts: 1,947

We, moreover, proclaim, declare and pronounce that it is altogether necessary to salvation for every human being to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. [Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam Sanctam, promulgated November 18, 1302,]


Is this infallible? If so, do all Catholics have to believe this?


And any non-Catholics not subject to the Pope can’t be saved?


And how about this?


 “But the supreme teacher in the Church is the Roman Pontiff. Union of minds, therefore, requires, together with a perfect accord in the one faith, complete submission and obedience of will to the Church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God Himself.” [Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical Letter, Sapientiae Christianae  1890]


Do all Catholics in good standing believe this too?

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 24, 2015 - 11:13AM #304
Cathapol
Posts: 918

Oct 13, 2015 -- 9:41AM, AristotlesChild wrote:



Paul is described as being in the East and West and being martyred by the Romans. There is no such claim about Peter.


Repeating the same error does not make it any less of an error.




Because Pope St. Clement did not mention, explicitly, that St. Peter was in Rome doesn't mean he wasn't there.  That is the flaw in your logic, Les.  Argumentum ex nihilo is not valid argumentation - so stop repeating it.

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 24, 2015 - 11:29AM #305
Cathapol
Posts: 918

AC quotes:  "We, moreover, proclaim, declare and pronounce that it is altogether necessary to salvation for every human being to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."  [Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam Sanctam, promulgated November 18, 1302,]


Is this infallible? If so, do all Catholics have to believe this?


And any non-Catholics not subject to the Pope can’t be saved?


CA:  Well, that's not exactly what it says!  Just because some do not admit to being subject to the pope does not mean they aren't.  I know a few people who insist that President Obama is not their president - that doesn't make it not so.  That being said, some argue that Unam Sanctum is infallible, others argue it is not.  


AC adds:  And how about this?


 “But the supreme teacher in the Church is the Roman Pontiff. Union of minds, therefore, requires, together with a perfect accord in the one faith, complete submission and obedience of will to the Church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God Himself.” [Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical Letter, Sapientiae Christianae  1890]


Do all Catholics in good standing believe this too?


CA:  Yes, Catholics in good standing need to be in submission and obedience to the will of the Church and to the pope, as to God Himself.  Now that would have limits.  I left out the word "complete" on purpose.  1) This is not an infallible statement and 2) if "obedience" is intrinsically evil or immoral then we would be obliged NOT to obey. 

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 26, 2015 - 9:17AM #306
AristotlesChild
Posts: 1,947

Quote from the late Cherubino  (pseudonym)  a wise and holy former Trappist. 


Describing authority within the Catholic Chruch.



 “Far more typically, they (hierarchy) espouse as revealed, universal and eternally true doctrine, a cosmology or a theology which coincidently just happens to legitimatize whatever pecking order they’re at the top of at that moment.”


 “These core doctrines and the organizational structure combined are inseparable in each denomination’s articles of incorporation.” 



 “The devil, as usual, is in the details and perhaps the most significant detail in any Christian organization is that its leaders are installed for life.” “Generally they enjoy perks befitting aristocrats.  People don’t generally give up that sort of power and privilege without fighting tooth and nail to keep the status quo.”    





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2 years ago  ::  Oct 26, 2015 - 9:18AM #307
AristotlesChild
Posts: 1,947

Oct 26, 2015 -- 9:17AM, AristotlesChild wrote:


Quote from the late Cherubino  (pseudonym)  a wise and holy former Trappist. 


Describing authority within the Catholic Chruch.



 “Far more typically, they (hierarchy) espouse as revealed, universal and eternally true doctrine, a cosmology or a theology which coincidently just happens to legitimatize whatever pecking order they’re at the top of at that moment.”


 “These core doctrines and the organizational structure combined are inseparable in each denomination’s articles of incorporation.” 



 “The devil, as usual, is in the details and perhaps the most significant detail in any Christian organization is that its leaders are installed for life.” “Generally they enjoy perks befitting aristocrats.  People don’t generally give up that sort of power and privilege without fighting tooth and nail to keep the status quo.”    






My observation: Perhaps that is the reason Pope Francis won't be able to make any lasting changes.

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 26, 2015 - 9:28AM #308
AristotlesChild
Posts: 1,947


It's about time to say good-bye. It's been fun!


I assume you'll be returning to your former websites where, as moderator, you have the authority to control all dialogue.


I'll be continuing on a number of different websites. Perhaps www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/.


On the other hand (there are four fingers and a thumb!Laughing), maybe I'll start my own site where I can be the moderator and find was for deleting posters who disagree with my views, and have the authority, to do so! Apparently, Yahoo Groups is looking for a few good men!


Regards,


AC/ formerly LL

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