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Switch to Forum Live View THE Fundamental Issue: AUTHORITY
3 years ago  ::  Jan 24, 2015 - 11:57AM #1
Cathapol
Posts: 918
We can banter about, back and forth, all we want - but NONE of these arguments are going to come to a true and final outcome when we operate from wholly variant premises.  If we boil it down, we're left with AUTHORITY.
 
SOLA ECCLESIAM:
The Catholic position could be summed up to that Latin phrase - which can be translated to "The Church Alone."  Catholics believe that Jesus Christ not only promised to build His Church (Matthew 16:18), but actually DID it - starting at John 21:15-17 (just before He ascended into Heaven).  THAT Church has existed from THAT DAY forward to the present.  Sola ecclesiam does not supplant Scripture - it includes Scripture! 
 
SOLA SCRIPTURA:
Much of Protestantism clings to this 16th century innovation (never heard of before that time).  This is Latin for "Scripture Alone."  A fairly accepted definition of sola scriptura is:  "Scripture alone is the sole infallible source of instruction for the Church."  Some take this to the extreme and proclaim, "If it's not in the Bible, don't believe it."  Slightly lesser on the extremist side would be "If it's not in the Bible, you don't have to believe it."  A problem here is that Scripture itself NO WHERE teaches sola scriptura!  So, if it's not in Scripture, the sola scriptura adherent is either a) bound NOT to believe it or b) OK with rejecting it, but then it is reduce to relative insignificance and certainly not a foundational belief.

Another problem with sola scriptura is that it's never truly "alone."  Fundamentally speaking, every Protestant is left to decide for him/herself what Scripture is really saying.  This leaves us more with the third position...
 
SOLUS IPSE:  (or SOLIPSISM)
This would be Latin for "Self Alone" where the ego ultimately makes all the decisions.  In reality, though most Protestants would claim sola scriptura - they are really in a position of solus ipse.  They alone decide either a) what Scripture means or b) whose interpretation of Scripture they will adhere to.  Some will say that Catholics adhere to clause b) here - however what I am referring to here is that Protestants will pick and choose which "confession" they will embrace, or which preacher they will listen to - and if they disagree, they move on to the next confession or preacher.  Catholicism, on the other hand, their version of solus ipse is more fundamental as they yield to one core creed.  While Catholics may move from one parish to another, the fundament credo does not change.  Solus ispe leaves us with dozens, if not hundreds or even thousands (depending on how one denominates) of variant and opposing truths - which is not logically possible.
 
THE BOTTOM LINE:
This matter of authority is where ALL our debates truly begin and end.  Once authority is established - the rest of who you are and profess to be falls in place.  Before you engage one of the above "sola" statements - do you agree with this "bottom line" statement?  Let your 'Yes' be 'Yes' and your 'No' be 'No."
 
Also posted here:  cathapol.blogspot.com/2015/01/authority-...
 
AMDG,
CathApol<<<
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 24, 2015 - 1:42PM #2
InHisHands
Posts: 11,552

Jan 24, 2015 -- 11:57AM, Cathapol wrote:

We can banter about, back and forth, all we want - but NONE of these arguments are going to come to a true and final outcome when we operate from wholly variant premises.  If we boil it down, we're left with AUTHORITY.
 
SOLA ECCLESIAM:
The Catholic position could be summed up to that Latin phrase - which can be translated to "The Church Alone."  Catholics believe that Jesus Christ not only promised to build His Church (Matthew 16:18), but actually DID it - starting at John 21:15-17 (just before He ascended into Heaven).  THAT Church has existed from THAT DAY forward to the present.  Sola ecclesiam does not supplant Scripture - it includes Scripture! 


I agree...but I do not agree that the BODY is strictly found only behind the closed doors of the structural church called the catholic body of believers...in that all should be standing first on the FUNDAMENTALS/FOUNDATION of our FAITH which is CHRIST plus nothing.  I do not believe that CHRIST'S BODY is limited to only the catholic denominational church.
 
SOLA SCRIPTURA:
Much of Protestantism clings to this 16th century innovation (never heard of before that time).  This is Latin for "Scripture Alone."  A fairly accepted definition of sola scriptura is:  "Scripture alone is the sole infallible source of instruction for the Church."  Some take this to the extreme and proclaim, "If it's not in the Bible, don't believe it."  Slightly lesser on the extremist side would be "If it's not in the Bible, you don't have to believe it."  A problem here is that Scripture itself NO WHERE teaches sola scriptura!  So, if it's not in Scripture, the sola scriptura adherent is either a) bound NOT to believe it or b) OK with rejecting it, but then it is reduce to relative insignificance and certainly not a foundational belief.

Another problem with sola scriptura is that it's never truly "alone."  Fundamentally speaking, every Protestant is left to decide for him/herself what Scripture is really saying.  This leaves us more with the third position...


Not really.  I don't agree here...I agree that JESUS' Dialogue to HIS DISCIPLES then is the same dialogue to HIS DISCIPLES today and tomorrow...the TRUTH that it is THE SPIRIT of TRUTH who will lead us and teach us all things...and I also believe that the VOICE/SPIRIT of GOD does not contradict the written word of GOD and I also believe that the written word of GOD does not contradict the VOICE/SPIRIT of GOD.


With that said, we who are born of THE SPIRIT can discern the TRUTH of GOD'S WORD, or the lack of TRUTH in anything that we read because it is the SPIRIT who leads and it is THE SPIRIT who is TRUTH.
 
SOLUS IPSE:  (or SOLIPSISM)
This would be Latin for "Self Alone" where the ego ultimately makes all the decisions.  In reality, though most Protestants would claim sola scriptura - they are really in a position of solus ipse.  They alone decide either a) what Scripture means or b) whose interpretation of Scripture they will adhere to.  Some will say that Catholics adhere to clause b) here - however what I am referring to here is that Protestants will pick and choose which "confession" they will embrace, or which preacher they will listen to - and if they disagree, they move on to the next confession or preacher.  Catholicism, on the other hand, their version of solus ipse is more fundamental as they yield to one core creed.  While Catholics may move from one parish to another, the fundament credo does not change.  Solus ispe leaves us with dozens, if not hundreds or even thousands (depending on how one denominates) of variant and opposing truths - which is not logically possible.
 
THE BOTTOM LINE:
This matter of authority is where ALL our debates truly begin and end.  Once authority is established - the rest of who you are and profess to be falls in place.  Before you engage one of the above "sola" statements - do you agree with this "bottom line" statement?  Let your 'Yes' be 'Yes' and your 'No' be 'No."
 
Also posted here:  cathapol.blogspot.com/2015/01/authority-...
 
AMDG,
CathApol<<<



CHRIST is both the FOUNDATION and HEAD of HIS OWN BODY, and since HE is THE HEAD, HE is able to direct the "members" of HIS BODY according to HIS PURPOSE.


But I know, you only wanted a yes or a no on the matter...and I believe it is CHRIST who gives to those whom HE prepared in advance the gifts (by HIS SPIRIT) according to HIS PURPOSE for the building up of HIS BODY...and not our own.


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3 years ago  ::  Jan 24, 2015 - 4:19PM #3
Cathapol
Posts: 918

THE BOTTOM LINE:
This matter of authority is where ALL our debates truly begin and end.  Once authority is established - the rest of who you are and profess to be falls in place.  Before you engage one of the above "sola" statements - do you agree with this "bottom line" statement?  Let your 'Yes' be 'Yes' and your 'No' be 'No."
 
Also posted here:  cathapol.blogspot.com/2015/01/authority-...
 


IH: CHRIST is both the FOUNDATION and HEAD of HIS OWN BODY, and since HE is THE HEAD, HE is able to direct the "members" of HIS BODY according to HIS PURPOSE.


IH: But I know, you only wanted a yes or a no on the matter...and I believe it is CHRIST who gives to those whom HE prepared in advance the gifts (by HIS SPIRIT) according to HIS PURPOSE for the building up of HIS BODY...and not our own.


CA:  IH, I didn't say I ONLY wanted a yes or no, I asked that we START there.  You did not start there, in fact you did not even go there.  You speak in noble, but a bit lofty terms.  Yes, Christ is the Foundation, the Cornerstone, the Head of His Body, the Shepherd of His Sheep - but HERE ON EARTH it was HE, Jesus Christ, who left someone to take over the reins of Shepherd.  John 21:15-17 lays that out very clearly.  Jesus did not leave His Followers rudderless.  Whom did Jesus select to "Feed My Sheep?"


AMDG,


CathApol<<<



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3 years ago  ::  Jan 24, 2015 - 4:57PM #4
InHisHands
Posts: 11,552

Jan 24, 2015 -- 4:19PM, Cathapol wrote:


THE BOTTOM LINE:
This matter of authority is where ALL our debates truly begin and end.  Once authority is established - the rest of who you are and profess to be falls in place.  Before you engage one of the above "sola" statements - do you agree with this "bottom line" statement?  Let your 'Yes' be 'Yes' and your 'No' be 'No."
 
Also posted here:  cathapol.blogspot.com/2015/01/authority-...
 


IH: CHRIST is both the FOUNDATION and HEAD of HIS OWN BODY, and since HE is THE HEAD, HE is able to direct the "members" of HIS BODY according to HIS PURPOSE.


IH: But I know, you only wanted a yes or a no on the matter...and I believe it is CHRIST who gives to those whom HE prepared in advance the gifts (by HIS SPIRIT) according to HIS PURPOSE for the building up of HIS BODY...and not our own.


CA:  IH, I didn't say I ONLY wanted a yes or no, I asked that we START there.  You did not start there, in fact you did not even go there.  You speak in noble, but a bit lofty terms.  Yes, Christ is the Foundation, the Cornerstone, the Head of His Body, the Shepherd of His Sheep - but HERE ON EARTH it was HE, Jesus Christ, who left someone to take over the reins of Shepherd.  John 21:15-17 lays that out very clearly.  Jesus did not leave His Followers rudderless.  Whom did Jesus select to "Feed My Sheep?"


AMDG,


CathApol<<<






No.  it is here that HE must reign until all has been accomplished. Then when all has been accomplished,when the numbers in CHRIST are complete and HE has put the last of HIS enemies under HIM, then will HE turn the KINGDOM over to THE FATHER so that GOD may be all...in all.


So many profess god(s) but deny THE SON...and those who deny THE SON, deny THE FATHER who sent HIM...therefore they do not have the ONE AND ONLY GOD AND FATHER of all men...


Do YOU understand?


It is easy to forget the TRUTH as written in 1John 2 but is necessary and important that we don't.


Be careful of what you began in...if what you began in remains in you (that CHRIST died, so that what was dead might be made alive IN HIM) you too will remain in BOTH, the FATHER and THE SON and this is what HE promised us, even eternal life.


Too many go out.


Please review 2John and also understand what John meant when he said, they went out from us, and by their going out made manifest that they were never with us...for if they were with us, they never would have gone out.


How can anyone go out from THE BODY and progress above JESUS CHRIST?


It is no different than a branch, separate from the ROOT trying to bear fruit apart from the ROOT...

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 24, 2015 - 8:41PM #5
AristotlesChild
Posts: 1,947

Jan 24, 2015 -- 11:57AM, Cathapol wrote:

We can banter about, back and forth, all we want - but NONE of these arguments are going to come to a true and final outcome when we operate from wholly variant premises.  If we boil it down, we're left with AUTHORITY.
 
SOLA ECCLESIAM:
The Catholic position could be summed up to that Latin phrase - which can be translated to "The Church Alone."  Catholics believe that Jesus Christ not only promised to build His Church (Matthew 16:18), but actually DID it - starting at John 21:15-17 (just before He ascended into Heaven).  THAT Church has existed from THAT DAY forward to the present.  Sola ecclesiam does not supplant Scripture - it includes Scripture! 
 

CathApol<<<



RESPONSE:


No. Christ thought himself to be an end time prophet, who insisted that the Law was not to change. He repeatedly said that he would return while many in his generation were still alive. But, of course, he didn't.


Matt 16:18 (assuming that it was genuine and not a later interpolation added to Mark's Gospel written about ten years earlier  and similar to Luke's Gospel)  does  not say Jesus was founding new church but instead a group of Jews who were "called out."


Note especially Acts of the Apostles  tells us that the original followers of Jesus comprised  the Jerusalem community, aTemple worshipping orthodox sect within conventional Judaism, not a new Church.


Nowhere in the Old Testament does it say that the Messiah would himself be divine, and it doesn't in the synoptic gospels. It was  about 85 AD when Jesus' followers began to say Jesus himself was God, resulted in the Jerusalem community being expelled from the Jewish synagogues for apostacy (for among other things claiming that there were two Gods). Shortly thereafter, Rome crushed Jerusalem and only the communities outside Israel (mainly Pauline in nature) survived and, their sect having been expelled from orthodox Judaism, formed a new church on the Pauline model.


The Pauline model continues to exist. It has whatever authority it's members give it.

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 24, 2015 - 9:46PM #6
Sthilarious
Posts: 408


There is no need to tell us that you didn't enter the sheep's pen through the narrow gate, but through YOUR OPINION of who carries authority.


 You haven't taken much notice of the gospel I preached to you, hardened your heart and now again PREACH YOUR EVIL MESSAGE by attempting to suck the life out of the sheep, throught the ABSURD notion that you need popery's tradition and usurped authority to approach the Lord Jesus, who is alive. It is like recommending going to a foreign embassy to approach the person of Jesus, who is so easily contactable.


The false teachers in the Vatican, like those in Colosse,
substituted philosophy for Christianity,
not by denying the latter, but by attempting to explain it.
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 24, 2015 - 9:59PM #7
InHisHands
Posts: 11,552

Jan 24, 2015 -- 8:41PM, AristotlesChild wrote:


Jan 24, 2015 -- 11:57AM, Cathapol wrote:

We can banter about, back and forth, all we want - but NONE of these arguments are going to come to a true and final outcome when we operate from wholly variant premises.  If we boil it down, we're left with AUTHORITY.
 
SOLA ECCLESIAM:
The Catholic position could be summed up to that Latin phrase - which can be translated to "The Church Alone."  Catholics believe that Jesus Christ not only promised to build His Church (Matthew 16:18), but actually DID it - starting at John 21:15-17 (just before He ascended into Heaven).  THAT Church has existed from THAT DAY forward to the present.  Sola ecclesiam does not supplant Scripture - it includes Scripture! 
 

CathApol<<<



RESPONSE:


No. Christ thought himself to be an end time prophet,


So, an end time prophet can send prophets so that men will do to them what was done to all the prophets and in this this end time prophet will avenge the deaths of all the prophets from Abel to Zechariah whose blood cries out to HIM from the ground?  


who insisted that the Law was not to change.


Because HE also said HE did not come to bring peace...therefore there is still division and not all know how to handle the law rightly as they do not combine the written requirements with the SPIRIT/VOICE of GOD.


The Law will not pass until all has been accomplished, which is why HE must reign and which is why ALL things are being brought into submission under ONE HEAD, CHRIST JESUS.


It's just that there are some that are not in submission to HIM...therefore until all has been accomplished, the LAW will not pass...


He repeatedly said that he would return while many in his generation were still alive. But, of course, he didn't.


Only two generations: those before HIS physical coming into the world, and those who benefitted by HIS physical coming into the world.


Matt 16:18 (assuming that it was genuine and not a later interpolation added to Mark's Gospel written about ten years earlier  and similar to Luke's Gospel)  does  not say Jesus was founding new church but instead a group of Jews who were "called out."


Called out and gathered up and seated in the Heavenly Realms in THE TRUE TEMPLE.


Note especially Acts of the Apostles  tells us that the original followers of Jesus comprised  the Jerusalem community, aTemple worshipping orthodox sect within conventional Judaism, not a new Church.


Tear down this temple and I will build it up in three days...what temple did you think HE was building?  A physical earthly one? 
 


Nowhere in the Old Testament does it say that the Messiah would himself be divine, and it doesn't in the synoptic gospels.


GOD WOULD NOT ALLOW HIS HOLY ONE TO SEE DECAY.


Psalm 2 also speaks of this HOLY ONE.


It was  about 85 AD when Jesus' followers began to say Jesus himself was God, resulted in the Jerusalem community being expelled from the Jewish synagogues for apostacy (for among other things claiming that there were two Gods).


Is that your own interpretation?  Please provide the source document.


Shortly thereafter, Rome crushed Jerusalem and only the communities outside Israel (mainly Pauline in nature) survived and, their sect having been expelled from orthodox Judaism, formed a new church on the Pauline model.


Again, please provide the backup which supports this historical statement.


The Pauline model continues to exist. It has whatever authority it's members give it.


It has the authority as from GOD as it speaks the TRUTH of the GOSPEL of GOD...





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3 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2015 - 12:24AM #8
Cathapol
Posts: 918

Jan 24, 2015 -- 4:57PM, InHisHands wrote:


Jan 24, 2015 -- 4:19PM, Cathapol wrote:


THE BOTTOM LINE:
This matter of authority is where ALL our debates truly begin and end.  Once authority is established - the rest of who you are and profess to be falls in place.  Before you engage one of the above "sola" statements - do you agree with this "bottom line" statement?  Let your 'Yes' be 'Yes' and your 'No' be 'No."
 
Also posted here:  cathapol.blogspot.com/2015/01/authority-...
 


IH: CHRIST is both the FOUNDATION and HEAD of HIS OWN BODY, and since HE is THE HEAD, HE is able to direct the "members" of HIS BODY according to HIS PURPOSE.


IH: But I know, you only wanted a yes or a no on the matter...and I believe it is CHRIST who gives to those whom HE prepared in advance the gifts (by HIS SPIRIT) according to HIS PURPOSE for the building up of HIS BODY...and not our own.


CA:  IH, I didn't say I ONLY wanted a yes or no, I asked that we START there.  You did not start there, in fact you did not even go there.  You speak in noble, but a bit lofty terms.  Yes, Christ is the Foundation, the Cornerstone, the Head of His Body, the Shepherd of His Sheep - but HERE ON EARTH it was HE, Jesus Christ, who left someone to take over the reins of Shepherd.  John 21:15-17 lays that out very clearly.  Jesus did not leave His Followers rudderless.  Whom did Jesus select to "Feed My Sheep?"


AMDG,


CathApol<<<






No.  it is here that HE must reign until all has been accomplished. Then when all has been accomplished,when the numbers in CHRIST are complete and HE has put the last of HIS enemies under HIM, then will HE turn the KINGDOM over to THE FATHER so that GOD may be all...in all.


So many profess god(s) but deny THE SON...and those who deny THE SON, deny THE FATHER who sent HIM...therefore they do not have the ONE AND ONLY GOD AND FATHER of all men...


Do YOU understand?


It is easy to forget the TRUTH as written in 1John 2 but is necessary and important that we don't.


Be careful of what you began in...if what you began in remains in you (that CHRIST died, so that what was dead might be made alive IN HIM) you too will remain in BOTH, the FATHER and THE SON and this is what HE promised us, even eternal life.


Too many go out.


Please review 2John and also understand what John meant when he said, they went out from us, and by their going out made manifest that they were never with us...for if they were with us, they never would have gone out.


How can anyone go out from THE BODY and progress above JESUS CHRIST?


It is no different than a branch, separate from the ROOT trying to bear fruit apart from the ROOT...




CA:  IH, why are you challenging me here?  Are you a Catholic?  In some postings you appear to be Catholic - but then you go all "holier than thou" on me as if you're trying to teach me something - all the while YOU'RE AVOIDING THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD!  I'd like to see you either ANSWER THE QUESTION or PUT A CORK IN IT.  If you would not lose focus on what THIS THREAD is about - I think you would be AGREEING with me, that is, if you truly are a Catholic. 

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2015 - 6:54AM #9
InHisHands
Posts: 11,552

Jan 25, 2015 -- 12:24AM, Cathapol wrote:


Jan 24, 2015 -- 4:57PM, InHisHands wrote:


Jan 24, 2015 -- 4:19PM, Cathapol wrote:


THE BOTTOM LINE:
This matter of authority is where ALL our debates truly begin and end.  Once authority is established - the rest of who you are and profess to be falls in place.  Before you engage one of the above "sola" statements - do you agree with this "bottom line" statement?  Let your 'Yes' be 'Yes' and your 'No' be 'No."
 
Also posted here:  cathapol.blogspot.com/2015/01/authority-...
 


IH: CHRIST is both the FOUNDATION and HEAD of HIS OWN BODY, and since HE is THE HEAD, HE is able to direct the "members" of HIS BODY according to HIS PURPOSE.


IH: But I know, you only wanted a yes or a no on the matter...and I believe it is CHRIST who gives to those whom HE prepared in advance the gifts (by HIS SPIRIT) according to HIS PURPOSE for the building up of HIS BODY...and not our own.


CA:  IH, I didn't say I ONLY wanted a yes or no, I asked that we START there.  You did not start there, in fact you did not even go there.  You speak in noble, but a bit lofty terms.  Yes, Christ is the Foundation, the Cornerstone, the Head of His Body, the Shepherd of His Sheep - but HERE ON EARTH it was HE, Jesus Christ, who left someone to take over the reins of Shepherd.  John 21:15-17 lays that out very clearly.  Jesus did not leave His Followers rudderless.  Whom did Jesus select to "Feed My Sheep?"


AMDG,


CathApol<<<






No.  it is here that HE must reign until all has been accomplished. Then when all has been accomplished,when the numbers in CHRIST are complete and HE has put the last of HIS enemies under HIM, then will HE turn the KINGDOM over to THE FATHER so that GOD may be all...in all.


So many profess god(s) but deny THE SON...and those who deny THE SON, deny THE FATHER who sent HIM...therefore they do not have the ONE AND ONLY GOD AND FATHER of all men...


Do YOU understand?


It is easy to forget the TRUTH as written in 1John 2 but is necessary and important that we don't.


Be careful of what you began in...if what you began in remains in you (that CHRIST died, so that what was dead might be made alive IN HIM) you too will remain in BOTH, the FATHER and THE SON and this is what HE promised us, even eternal life.


Too many go out.


Please review 2John and also understand what John meant when he said, they went out from us, and by their going out made manifest that they were never with us...for if they were with us, they never would have gone out.


How can anyone go out from THE BODY and progress above JESUS CHRIST?


It is no different than a branch, separate from the ROOT trying to bear fruit apart from the ROOT...




CA:  IH, why are you challenging me here?  Are you a Catholic?  In some postings you appear to be Catholic - but then you go all "holier than thou" on me as if you're trying to teach me something - all the while YOU'RE AVOIDING THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD!  I'd like to see you either ANSWER THE QUESTION or PUT A CORK IN IT.  If you would not lose focus on what THIS THREAD is about - I think you would be AGREEING with me, that is, if you truly are a Catholic. 




I haven't changed my stance at all.  I haven't been for those who think it is "popery" that leads us, nor have I been for those who think authority is based on what people will tell us it is based on.


I said it is dependent on the power of CHRIST, by THE HOLY SPIRIT of GOD, leading us...


And CHRIST, who is both the HEAD and FOUNDATION of THE BODY, in which we were called out of the world and into HIM, can and does direct HIS BODY by HIS SPIRIT.


And of course, HE does give gifts according to HIS PURPOSE...therefore, if a "pope" is holding a position, he has not received that position apart from CHRIST, and if he has, it will be made evident to those who are born of GOD and led by THE HOLY SPIRIT since we have the power of discernment and can test the spirits.


Yes, there are positions of authority and we are to obey authorities in this world as from GOD, but when it goes against what we truly do worship, and comes into direct conflict with HIS WORD, we can't.


Therefore, the bottom line, is the TRUE AUTHORITY is GOD and HE gives us of HIS SPIRIT to know HIS WILL... 


I am Christian, first and foremost...


I am Catholic because this is how I worship in community with other believers whose faith is in JESUS CHRIST.


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3 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2015 - 7:02AM #10
InHisHands
Posts: 11,552

Peter was personally called by the LORD to feed HIS SHEEP


And one of the stipulations of feeding HIS SHEEP was the question asked:


Peter, do you love ME?


...What did you think Peter was feeding the sheep, but the TRUE FOOD that lasts...and that is CHRIST, the GOSPEL of the GOOD NEWS of JESUS CHRIST!


And if "Peter" is not being fed himself, he can't feed the sheep...

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