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Switch to Forum Live View The Cross, Paganism, and Pagan Symbols
2 years ago  ::  Oct 04, 2015 - 3:25PM #291
AnnOMaly
Posts: 3,460

Newt, we've countered your claims already in this thread. Why bring up the same ol', same ol' that's been addressed?


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2 years ago  ::  Oct 04, 2015 - 5:57PM #292
Kemmer
Posts: 18,459

Oct 4, 2015 -- 12:55PM, Newtonian wrote:


.


Galatians 3:13 quoting Deut 21:23 -


New International Version
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole."




The Revised English Bible has "gibbet", which could mean anything from a gallows to a guillotine, depending on your particular religious sect.  


 Nevertheless, ancient and modern scholarship aver Christ died from the usual Roman method of execution: crucifixion.

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 04, 2015 - 8:25PM #293
five_point_dad
Posts: 4,719

NEWT: You provide a reference to confirm the cross is a 'Christian emblem' in 70 CE and I will respond to that.   I simply do not believe you.


FPD: Newt, old buddy, you didn't believe me?  I'm shocked! 


There are pictures of the Pompeii house here:


www.google.com/site/ad79eruption/pompeii/regio-vi/reg-vi-ins-61/house-of-pansa. 


Also a suburb that was also buried in 79 AD has a similar drawing and you can see pictures of that here:  


www.tellout.com/household/house42a1.htm


NEWT: And, yes, we used to use the cross (and observe Christmas, etc.) before we researched the Greek words stauros and xylon the Hebrew word ets and realized the cross is a pagan phallic symbol.


FPD: If you do a "bing" search for "Christian cross" "Pompeii" you'll see an assortment of ancient pictures that both display the Christian cross as well as pagan phallic symbols.  You can easily see the difference. 


NEWT:  I simply say that Jesus fulfilled Deuteronomy 21:23 by being hung on an ets/stake - Paul gave the reasons - you disagree with Paul?


FPD: If you read the Deuteronomy 21 passage you'll also easily see that it was the prisoner's corpse that was nailed to the tree.  It wasn't the instrument upon which he was executed.  No only do I agree with Paul, but I'm not the one who misquoted him.


 Deuteronomy 21:23 - New International Version
you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God's curse. You must not desecrate the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.


Galatians 3:13 quoting Deut 21:23 -  New International Version      Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole."


FPD: Interesting!  I have a NIV and it doesn't read that way.  It says and I quote, "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."  Did it not occur to you that I would have a NIV?  The Greek word is XULON which simply means "wood," and carries no suggestion as to the shape of the item.  You see, Newt, you actually have no evidence at all that Christ was crucified on an upright stake--absolutely none!  The only way you can present any evidence is to misquote the NT.  You have to add words to make Christ a creature.  You have to inject "Jehovah" to make it read the way the Watchtower wants it, and you just misquoted Paul in order to get this absurd Watchtower doctrine into the Scripture.  You're in the wrong organization. 

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 04, 2015 - 8:34PM #294
five_point_dad
Posts: 4,719

MARKEN: A  Christian  will  not  use  an  instrument  of  execution  in  his  worship.  


FPD: "But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world" (Gal. 6:14).   Must be Paul didn't read that particular issue of "Watchtower" magazine. 


MARKEN: I  do  not  believe  that  the  word  cross  as  we  understand  it  today -t- was  ever  used  in  the  translations of  early  Christians,  and  any  translation  we  use  for  personal  study  today,  is a  better  translation  by  not  using  that  English  word. 


FPD: Of course, you're entitled to your opinion.  Upon what do you base it? 


MARKEN:  Much like  the  english  word  Hell,  which  the king  james  translators  used  to  translate  four  different  Hebrew  and  Greek  words,  and  has  no  connection  with  the  Satanic  teaching  of  everlasting  torment.


FPD: "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10).  Apparently, John didn't get that issue of "Watchtower" magazine either. 

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 08, 2015 - 5:02AM #295
Utilyan
Posts: 7,300

Neck-Tie--> Roman Soldier   

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1 year ago  ::  Oct 31, 2015 - 4:44PM #296
Newtonian
Posts: 14,082

OK, I used AOL search instead - I think the storms here knocked out Bing search as well as the internet eventually (for me) - anyway - this is a well research link for the search on cross pompei:


An Early Christian Cryptogram? - University of Manitoba


www.umanitoba.ca/colleges/st_pauls/ccha/.../Fishwick.htm - Similarto An Early Christian Cryptogram? - University of Manitoba


The cross at Pompeii has never been accepted as genuine, and when the original charcoal inscription faded, sceptics were quick to emphasize discrepancies in ...


Also from the link:


www.umanitoba.ca/colleges/st_pauls/ccha/...


The conclusion:


The final verdict on the origin of the Rotas-Sator square is clearly dependent on future archaeological discoveries. But in the present state of the evidence it seems reasonable to conclude that this charm, at least in the form we now have it,73 originated with Latin-­speaking Jews (presumably settled in Italy) in the period immediately prior to the Christian Era. Such an origin is itself sufficient explanation of its cryptic form; alternatively, it may have been a product of the pogroms of, e.g., A.D. 19 or A.D. 49. It would seem that it fell into disuse, to be revived later as a Christian symbol amid the new enthusiasm for symbolism characteristic of the third century and later.74 Perhaps its obscurity in the meantime explains why its origin was forgotten and its Christianity so readily accepted.


_________________


OK, FPD - this certainly is not what you posted it to be - and if you don't post soon or I get more storms the site may go read only before we can discuss it.

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1 year ago  ::  Oct 31, 2015 - 4:52PM #297
Newtonian
Posts: 14,082

Concerning the cross as a phallic symbol:


wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989219?q...


Excerpt:'


Does it really make any difference if a person cherishes a cross, as long as he does not worship it?


How would you feel if one of your dearest friends was executed on the basis of false charges? Would you make a replica of the instrument of execution? Would you cherish it, or would you rather shun it?


In ancient Israel, unfaithful Jews wept over the death of the false god Tammuz. Jehovah spoke of what they were doing as being a ‘detestable thing.’ (Ezek. 8:13, 14) According to history, Tammuz was a Babylonian god, and the cross was used as his symbol. From its beginning in the days of Nimrod, Babylon was against Jehovah and an enemy of true worship. (Gen. 10:8-10; Jer. 50:29) So by cherishing the cross, a person is honoring a symbol of worship that is opposed to the true God.


As stated at Ezekiel 8:17, apostate Jews also ‘thrust out the shoot to Jehovah’s nose.’ He viewed this as “detestable” and ‘offensive.’ Why? This “shoot,” some commentators explain, was a representation of the male sex organ, used in phallic worship. How, then, must Jehovah view the use of the cross, which, as we have seen, was anciently used as a symbol in phallic worship?


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1 year ago  ::  Oct 31, 2015 - 5:54PM #298
AnnOMaly
Posts: 3,460

Give it up, Newt. You were creamed in this thread.

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1 year ago  ::  Nov 01, 2015 - 5:49AM #299
AnnOMaly
Posts: 3,460

Newt, you are repeating the same old claims that have already been refuted in this thread!

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