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Switch to Forum Live View After 47 years in Mormonism -Thinking of Calling It Quits
4 years ago  ::  Jul 22, 2013 - 8:10AM #1
sonicbuffalo
Posts: 48
My problem is this.  My Mother and Father got a divorce, and then my Mom remarried.  He was never a member of the LDS Faith, but Mom got his Temple work done for him after he passed away.  

She had been excommunicated for adultery while married to my Father.  She or my Father never got a Temple Divorce, and later she repented (ha! ha!) and then got her Full Temple blessings restored.  She is now trying to get me to 'get into' geneology so that after she dies she can be sealed to both her 2nd husband and my Father.  In other words, she wants to be sealed to both of them in case one doesn't want her.  

I find it despicable that the church can still look at her as being married to my Father even though she and he divorced for adultery.  I mean, I thought the Temples were sacred, and a general authority had to meet with her to restore her blessings.  

I am seriously  thinking this week of submitting a letter to my Bishop and asking to be taken off the rolls of the church.  I am extremely disappointed in the church allowing her to do this.  If she and my Father got a civil divorce, then that should suffice to dissolve any Temple Marriage they had.  
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 22, 2013 - 12:47PM #2
Aka_me
Posts: 14,464

Jul 22, 2013 -- 8:10AM, sonicbuffalo wrote:

He was never a member of the LDS Faith



it is certainly difficult being in the situation, but perhaps taking a step back and looking at the bigger picture would be helpful?


church members don't "have faith in LDS", they have faith in Jesus... this faith in Jesus is what unites all Christians.


whereas Catholics are separated from Protestants are separated from LDS by their religion.


religion is the existence of humans with power and authority in God's name.


if you believe LDS leaders actually ARE acting in the power and authority of God, then you belong in the church. and the details (of this or any other situation) are irrelevant in the bigger picture because the church leaders are always in the right.


if you don't believe middle men who legislate morality upon the unbelievers like Jesus did in the Bible are required to get from here to the presence of Heavenly Father...


then that answers the question of what the particular situation is asking.

I dream in my lifetime uhmericans will come to realize hezbollah, hamas, and isis gain followers by helping society AND the only way to defeat them is to perform greater good.

the average person is 8 times more likely to be murdered by a cop than a radical terrorist
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 22, 2013 - 1:05PM #3
mecdukebec
Posts: 16,084

My thoughts go out to you, Sonic.  I am not LDS, but know that people interfering in anything so emotionally involved as divorce and claiming the power of the Divine to change what happens in temporal matters are, inevitably, going to revealed for the un-caring attitude they share.  Go with God.

*******

"Wesley told the early Methodists to gain all they could and save all they could so that they could give all they could. It means that I consider my money to belong to God and I see myself as one of the hungry people who needs to get fed with God’s money. If I really have put all my trust in Jesus Christ as savior and Lord, then nothing I have is really my own anymore."
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 22, 2013 - 3:21PM #4
Ironhold
Posts: 12,363

Jul 22, 2013 -- 8:10AM, sonicbuffalo wrote:

I am seriously  thinking this week of submitting a letter to my Bishop and asking to be taken off the rolls of the church.  I am extremely disappointed in the church allowing her to do this.  If she and my Father got a civil divorce, then that should suffice to dissolve any Temple Marriage they had.  



Cancellations don't work like that.


My guess is that your parents never actually put the paperwork in to have the cancellation performed in the first place. If the paperwork was never filed, then of course nobody moved to get the sealing cancelled.


The church requires the members to get the ball rolling on matters like this.

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 22, 2013 - 6:40PM #5
sonicbuffalo
Posts: 48

Jul 22, 2013 -- 3:21PM, Ironhold wrote:


Jul 22, 2013 -- 8:10AM, sonicbuffalo wrote:

I am seriously  thinking this week of submitting a letter to my Bishop and asking to be taken off the rolls of the church.  I am extremely disappointed in the church allowing her to do this.  If she and my Father got a civil divorce, then that should suffice to dissolve any Temple Marriage they had.  



Cancellations don't work like that.


My guess is that your parents never actually put the paperwork in to have the cancellation performed in the first place. If the paperwork was never filed, then of course nobody moved to get the sealing cancelled.


The church requires the members to get the ball rolling on matters like this.





Yes....you may be right, but my Father never requested a Temple Divorce, and my Mother didn't want one.  The hell my brothers and I went through deserved both divorces.  It should be automatic.  I believe the Temple Divorce was taken care of when she was excommunicated, but when her 'blessings' were restored, all of the sudden, she was married and sealed to all of us again.  Must be those magic underwear she started wearing.  She then started paying her tithing a little at a time until she magically was worthy of a temple recommend again.  This is in spite of her not going to church hardly at all, and refusing to go to her assigned ward/branch.  Since she got her temple recommend, she has only gone to church 1 out of 3 Sundays.  

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 22, 2013 - 7:22PM #6
Ironhold
Posts: 12,363

Jul 22, 2013 -- 6:40PM, sonicbuffalo wrote:


Jul 22, 2013 -- 3:21PM, Ironhold wrote:


Jul 22, 2013 -- 8:10AM, sonicbuffalo wrote:

I am seriously  thinking this week of submitting a letter to my Bishop and asking to be taken off the rolls of the church.  I am extremely disappointed in the church allowing her to do this.  If she and my Father got a civil divorce, then that should suffice to dissolve any Temple Marriage they had.  



Cancellations don't work like that.


My guess is that your parents never actually put the paperwork in to have the cancellation performed in the first place. If the paperwork was never filed, then of course nobody moved to get the sealing cancelled.


The church requires the members to get the ball rolling on matters like this.





Yes....you may be right, but my Father never requested a Temple Divorce, and my Mother didn't want one.  The hell my brothers and I went through deserved both divorces.  It should be automatic.  I believe the Temple Divorce was taken care of when she was excommunicated, but when her 'blessings' were restored, all of the sudden, she was married and sealed to all of us again.  Must be those magic underwear she started wearing.  She then started paying her tithing a little at a time until she magically was worthy of a temple recommend again.  This is in spite of her not going to church hardly at all, and refusing to go to her assigned ward/branch.  Since she got her temple recommend, she has only gone to church 1 out of 3 Sundays.  




I'm the finance clerk for my congregation, and so I know what sorts of paperwork are required to perform certain tasks and how even minor snafus can boggle the entire system. The idea for leaving a paper trail for everything is that it's an added layer of security in order to prevent "he said, she said" scenarios, but the trade-off is that if the protocols aren't followed then things can fall apart with speed.


Given what you've told me, I'd say that you should get with either your bishop or your mom's bishop (perhaps even both of them) and let them know your side of the issue.


If a person is excommunicated, then they're supposed to start from square one when it comes to getting their ordinances restored. It shouldn't be "automatic" like you say it is.


I'd say that your mom is attempting to game the system at this point, something that those bishops I know would *not* take kindly. It might even get her re-ex'd.


Sorry if this is hurting you in any fashion.



edit -


Barring certain exceptions, the church requires people to get the ball rolling on sealing cancellations, membership withdrawals, and similar procedures so as to prevent mistakes from being made.


For example, my congregation services a major military base. The members of the congregation who are in the service frequently come and go as they are sent to training or deployed in various locations, and so it is common for news of their situation to not arrive until after they're already gone... and, by extension, have already missed a few Sundays. Some congregations may see a person missing for a few Sundays and strike them from the rolls without asking questions, but we give them the benefit of the doubt and continue to fellowship them as best as we can until they return.

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 22, 2013 - 7:30PM #7
sonicbuffalo
Posts: 48

Jul 22, 2013 -- 7:22PM, Ironhold wrote:


Jul 22, 2013 -- 6:40PM, sonicbuffalo wrote:


Jul 22, 2013 -- 3:21PM, Ironhold wrote:


Jul 22, 2013 -- 8:10AM, sonicbuffalo wrote:

I am seriously  thinking this week of submitting a letter to my Bishop and asking to be taken off the rolls of the church.  I am extremely disappointed in the church allowing her to do this.  If she and my Father got a civil divorce, then that should suffice to dissolve any Temple Marriage they had.  



Cancellations don't work like that.


My guess is that your parents never actually put the paperwork in to have the cancellation performed in the first place. If the paperwork was never filed, then of course nobody moved to get the sealing cancelled.


The church requires the members to get the ball rolling on matters like this.





Yes....you may be right, but my Father never requested a Temple Divorce, and my Mother didn't want one.  The hell my brothers and I went through deserved both divorces.  It should be automatic.  I believe the Temple Divorce was taken care of when she was excommunicated, but when her 'blessings' were restored, all of the sudden, she was married and sealed to all of us again.  Must be those magic underwear she started wearing.  She then started paying her tithing a little at a time until she magically was worthy of a temple recommend again.  This is in spite of her not going to church hardly at all, and refusing to go to her assigned ward/branch.  Since she got her temple recommend, she has only gone to church 1 out of 3 Sundays.  




I'm the finance clerk for my congregation, and so I know what sorts of paperwork are required to perform certain tasks and how even minor snafus can boggle the entire system. The idea for leaving a paper trail for everything is that it's an added layer of security in order to prevent "he said, she said" scenarios, but the trade-off is that if the protocols aren't followed then things can fall apart with speed.


Given what you've told me, I'd say that you should get with either your bishop or your mom's bishop (perhaps even both of them) and let them know your side of the issue.


If a person is excommunicated, then they're supposed to start from square one when it comes to getting their ordinances restored. It shouldn't be "automatic" like you say it is.


I'd say that your mom is attempting to game the system at this point, something that those bishops I know would *not* take kindly. It might even get her re-ex'd.


Sorry if this is hurting you in any fashion.



edit -


Barring certain exceptions, the church requires people to get the ball rolling on sealing cancellations, membership withdrawals, and similar procedures so as to prevent mistakes from being made.


For example, my congregation services a major military base. The members of the congregation who are in the service frequently come and go as they are sent to training or deployed in various locations, and so it is common for news of their situation to not arrive until after they're already gone... and, by extension, have already missed a few Sundays. Some congregations may see a person missing for a few Sundays and strike them from the rolls without asking questions, but we give them the benefit of the doubt and continue to fellowship them as best as we can until they return.





She's definitely 'gaming the system'.  It's a shame to have to see all of this stuff in our family...my oldest brother is an active member, and he has sent his son and daughters on missions, but he has never been married in the Temple even though his wife has gotten her endowments so she could attend their kids weddings.  I think even he has problems he doesn't talk about.  

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 22, 2013 - 7:48PM #8
Ironhold
Posts: 12,363

Jul 22, 2013 -- 7:30PM, sonicbuffalo wrote:


She's definitely 'gaming the system'.  It's a shame to have to see all of this stuff in our family...my oldest brother is an active member, and he has sent his son and daughters on missions, but he has never been married in the Temple even though his wife has gotten her endowments so she could attend their kids weddings.  I think even he has problems he doesn't talk about.  



I could tell you stories of my own about what I've seen. For example, I recall wanting to throttle the elder's quorum president for my congregation because he got to spouting off one Sunday and said something that absolutely stupid... and then remembering that he's a lieutenant in the military and so this likely was not the stupidist thing he's ever said.* Rather, I wound up invoking the whole "you agreed to sustain me in my calling" bit to make him help me stuff tithing envelopes (the tithing receipts and the actual envelopes ship separately) as my way of reminding him that he's supposed to check his rank at the door and pitch in for the common good; he's cooled his heels slightly since then, so perhaps I got through to him.


I think the main thing to remember at this point is that some days we need to remember to separate the church as a whole from the individual members that make it up.



*Supposedly, there's a saying in the Marine Corps that holds "The most dangerous thing in the world is a green (re: inexperienced) lieutenant in the dark with a book of matches." The culture of both the Marine Corps and the Army assigns a stigma to the lieutenants in their midst, as they are often inexperienced enough to make considerable mistakes, arrogant enough not to realize their mistakes, and highly-ranked enough for their mistakes to have a severe negative impact on their entire unit.


The original "Starship Troopers" novel by Robert Heinlein (avoid the movie; it stinks) referenced this by noting that, as a consequence of WWIII, the Mobile Infantry will not consider anyone for officer candidate school unless they've made at least one combat drop and agree to a minimum term of service of 20 years (compared to the usual 2 years for enlisted men); they must also lead a team in a live combat drop as a "final exam" before they officially receive their commission. Although it has had the effect of leaving the officer corps short-handed, the officers who are present tend to be dedicated to the corps rather than their own egos and can be guaranteed to be at least half-way competent.

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 22, 2013 - 11:35PM #9
Unworthyone
Posts: 4,348

Jul 22, 2013 -- 7:22PM, Ironhold wrote:


I'm the finance clerk for my congregation, and so I know what sorts of paperwork are required to perform certain tasks and how even minor snafus can boggle the entire system. The idea for leaving a paper trail for everything is that it's an added layer of security in order to prevent "he said, she said" scenarios, but the trade-off is that if the protocols aren't followed then things can fall apart with speed.




Do these 'snafus' have eternal ramifications?  If there is some oversight error or clerical mixup can it in anyway impact someone's fate in eternity?  Seriously?


Do you believe this crap is important in the herafter?  Is someone going to find themselves in front of a bespectacled celestial functionary who says "I'm sorry, but your paperwork has some apparent irregularity.  Please have a seat and we will call you as soon as we straighten this out."?


Or are you implying that people do not realize the ward finance clerk has the power to deep six someone's spot in the celestial kingdom by 'accidently' shredding their tithing records?  That's a guy you do not want to piss off.


And further, do you really believe someone can 'game the system'?  To what end?  Gonna pull a fast one over on the Alpha and Omega?  Gonna get past the pearly gates with a fake ID?

“Some men see things as they are and say, why; I dream things that never were and say, why not.” Robert F. Kennedy, 1968
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 23, 2013 - 12:08AM #10
Habala?!
Posts: 1,224

Jul 22, 2013 -- 11:35PM, Unworthyone wrote:


Jul 22, 2013 -- 7:22PM, Ironhold wrote:


I'm the finance clerk for my congregation, and so I know what sorts of paperwork are required to perform certain tasks and how even minor snafus can boggle the entire system. The idea for leaving a paper trail for everything is that it's an added layer of security in order to prevent "he said, she said" scenarios, but the trade-off is that if the protocols aren't followed then things can fall apart with speed.




Do these 'snafus' have eternal ramifications?  If there is some oversight error or clerical mixup can it in anyway impact someone's fate in eternity?  Seriously?


Do you believe this crap is important in the herafter?  Is someone going to find themselves in front of a bespectacled celestial functionary who says "I'm sorry, but your paperwork has some apparent irregularity.  Please have a seat and we will call you as soon as we straighten this out."?


Or are you implying that people do not realize the ward finance clerk has the power to deep six someone's spot in the celestial kingdom by 'accidently' shredding their tithing records?  That's a guy you do not want to piss off.


And further, do you really believe someone can 'game the system'?  To what end?  Gonna pull a fast one over on the Alpha and Omega?  Gonna get past the pearly gates with a fake ID?




I've often thought that the LDS worship a Kafkaesque God of Bureaucracy. I've been considered writing a short story about it.

"When you walk, you might like to take the hand of a child. She will receive your concentration and stability, and you will receive her freshness and innocence." -Tich Naht Hanh
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