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Switch to Forum Live View 'Virgin' Birth for the Messiah
5 years ago  ::  Jan 09, 2013 - 7:14PM #1
Hmmm
Posts: 5,020
Hello everyone. I have another question to ask you...

Did the Jews have a belief in a 'virgin' birth for the messiah? Thank you.
The truth, the whole truth...and nothing but the truth?
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 09, 2013 - 7:49PM #2
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 19,045

No

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 09, 2013 - 8:01PM #3
Hmmm
Posts: 5,020

Jan 9, 2013 -- 7:49PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


No



Thank you, rocketjsquirell, but what about the Isaiah 7:14 prophecy?

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 09, 2013 - 8:20PM #4
Shusha
Posts: 6,097

Jan 9, 2013 -- 8:01PM, Hmmm wrote:


Jan 9, 2013 -- 7:49PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


No



Thank you, rocketjsquirell, but what about the Isaiah 7:14 prophecy?





It has nothing to do with virgins, messiahs or long-term prophecies. 

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 09, 2013 - 9:08PM #5
Pam34
Posts: 2,795

Just so you don't think that's one person's opinion:



no. No virgin birth.



BTW, there is a perfectly good Hebrew word for virgin, and Isaiah knew it because he used it elsewhere, and he didn't use 'virgin' in that section. He used a word meaning 'young woman'.



Blessed are You, HaShem, Who blesses the years.
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2013 - 6:38AM #6
Dostojevsky
Posts: 9,063


"BTW, there is a perfectly good Hebrew word for virgin, and Isaiah knew it because he used it elsewhere, and he didn't use 'virgin' in that section. He used a word meaning 'young woman'."


This is Rabbi/Talmudic way of re-inventing Torah.

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2013 - 7:01AM #7
Pam34
Posts: 2,795

Isaiah is in Prophets, not in Torah.


The Hebrew texts (there are several copies, some dating to the pre-Christian era) say 'young woman' invariably.


The context of the prophecy indicate that the birth is imminant and to occur within the near future of the audience. 'Behold, the young woman is with child and will bear a son ...and before he is old enough to tell right from wrong ... the land you hate will be forsaken of both her kings..."



There is extremely little 're-interpretation' of any sort of 'talmudic' kind needed for that.




Blessed are You, HaShem, Who blesses the years.
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2013 - 8:58AM #8
river8101
Posts: 5,587

There are two Hebrew words which can be translated 'virgin' in English. 'Bethulah' means virgin in the sense that the woman has never had any sex with a man.   It was used, for example, in Isaiah 62:5.


'Almah'(עלמות) (the word used in Isaiah 7:14) only means a young woman.  Although it can sometimes be used in the sense of a sexually pure woman, that is not it's exclusive use. The exclusive use of the HEBREW word virgin is "bethulah". (("בתולה") The context of the rest of the conversation will usually point out the correct use. 


The confusion arose when the Greek Septuagint used the Greek word 'parthenos' to translate Isaiah 7:14. This word, in Greek, does denote a "sexually" pure woman, and was the inspiration for the myth of the virgin birth.  There were many virgin births in the stories of a sacred goddess in pagan Greek religions.


A look at the context of Isaiah 7:14 will quickly reveal that the woman that Isaiah was referring to was obviously *already* pregnant, thus pointing out which sense of 'almah' was intended. In any case, the point of Isaiah's prophecy was that before the child reached the age of accountability, (the ground whose two kings you dread shall be abandoned.) (A prophecy which was only partly fulfilled).  The use of the word 'virgin' does not apply in Isaiah's prophecy. The 'sign' was the child, not a miraculous conception.


In short, Isaiah's 'sign' was fulfilled within it's own context, hundreds of years before anyone thought to apply it in a different way. 

“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2013 - 10:14AM #9
ffb
Posts: 2,356

Jan 10, 2013 -- 6:38AM, Dostojevsky wrote:


"BTW, there is a perfectly good Hebrew word for virgin, and Isaiah knew it because he used it elsewhere, and he didn't use 'virgin' in that section. He used a word meaning 'young woman'."


This is Rabbi/Talmudic way of re-inventing Torah.


What exactly is reinvented? The word used is almah, not betulah. That is not an opinion or a reinvention but a direct quote. It is such a direct quote that even the KJV in other places translates almah to young woman and not virgin. So again, what is "reinvented" by the rabbis? The original words? Isn't the reinvention by the translators who, using their own agenda, selectively interpreted certain words to make their point?

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2013 - 10:25AM #10
river8101
Posts: 5,587

ABSOLUTELY.  It is obvious that Dost likes to reinvent bible , Talmud, Torah, and history according to his own beliefs and the opposite of Jewish understanding, though he knows absolutely nothing about any of it. Dost comes on the Jewish forum with the most ridiculous ideas.  How are you on translating and writing Hebrew, and how are you on "the sun revolves around the earth."  We got that one from someone too.    hahahaha 

“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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