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Switch to Forum Live View 'Virgin' Birth for the Messiah
4 years ago  ::  Oct 06, 2013 - 2:34PM #851
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,932

Oct 6, 2013 -- 10:00AM, Dostojevsky wrote:

BSD, no wonder everybody here gave you praise.


You made them feel oh, so good, oh, so righteous!



BS"D


They did not give me praise - they simply acknowledged the truth of the words.  There is nothing in the words to make someone feel good or righteous.  By comparison, the words are harsh as they highlight where we fall short in our daily lives in measuring up.


Oct 6, 2013 -- 10:00AM, Dostojevsky wrote:

The fact is divine oasis has shed human blood as well and is prepared to do it again.



You have no hard evidence for this statement.  It is based upon your wrongful reading of Torah as if it were a chronological history.  It is no such thing.


Oct 6, 2013 -- 10:00AM, Dostojevsky wrote:

Other peoples and their religions and philosphies is what keeps this world sane.



No, the right actions of EVERY human being keeps this world sane.   Religions and philosophies are irrelevant.   It is behavior which manifests sanity, not thought.  Human minds are far too primitive to evoke any detectable thought process which could be considered in any way truly rational.


Oct 6, 2013 -- 10:00AM, Dostojevsky wrote:

It does not mean I'd discount Biblical Judaism



But every Jew DOES discount what you term "Biblical Judaism."    The Torah is based upon the Jewish people and NOT the other way around.   That is where many non-Jews get it WRONG.

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 25, 2013 - 3:19AM #852
Shibolet
Posts: 3,885

Virgin birth for the Messiah is what the thread suggests and I agree with the poster because of the following:


Isaiah 7:14 - "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son and shall call his name Immanuel." According to Amos 5:2 the virgin was Israel aka Ephrahim that gave birth to Judah when Israel was conquered by Assyria and transfered for good from the Land of Israel. It means that Hashem rejected the Tent of Joseph and confirmed Judah in Jerusalem for the sake of David. (Psa.78:67-69; I Kings 11:36) The new election of Judah in spite of Israel was meant to be a rebirth.


Isaiah 7:15 - "Butter and honey shall the son eat." It means that Judah would be the sole dweller throughout the whole Land of Israel.


Isaiah 7:22 - "For butter and honey shall every one eat that's left in the Land." Judah was the People left in the Land which explains the meaning of eating "butter and honey."


Isaiah 8:8 - "And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over; he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy Land O Immanuel." That a reference to the king of Assyria who invaded Judah but did not throw even a single arrow into Jerusalem the Land of Immanuel, a reference to Judah, the Jewish People who according to Ezekiel 37:22 would constitute the sole People in the whole Land of Israel.


That's IMHO, the virgin birth for the Messiah.   

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 25, 2013 - 8:06AM #853
ffb
Posts: 2,356

Oct 25, 2013 -- 3:19AM, Shibolet wrote:

Virgin birth for the Messiah is what the thread suggests and I agree with the poster because of the following:


Isaiah 7:14 - "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son and shall call his name Immanuel." According to Amos 5:2 the virgin was Israel aka Ephrahim that gave birth to Judah when Israel was conquered by Assyria and transfered for good from the Land of Israel. It means that Hashem rejected the Tent of Joseph and confirmed Judah in Jerusalem for the sake of David. (Psa.78:67-69; I Kings 11:36) The new election of Judah in spite of Israel was meant to be a rebirth.


Isaiah 7:15 - "Butter and honey shall the son eat." It means that Judah would be the sole dweller throughout the whole Land of Israel.


Isaiah 7:22 - "For butter and honey shall every one eat that's left in the Land." Judah was the People left in the Land which explains the meaning of eating "butter and honey."


Isaiah 8:8 - "And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over; he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy Land O Immanuel." That a reference to the king of Assyria who invaded Judah but did not throw even a single arrow into Jerusalem the Land of Immanuel, a reference to Judah, the Jewish People who according to Ezekiel 37:22 would constitute the sole People in the whole Land of Israel.


That's IMHO, the virgin birth for the Messiah.   


The text doesn't say virgin. That has been well documented. The text is also referring to a specific person and series of events. Also well documented.


One should start with rashi.


www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/159...

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 26, 2013 - 6:05AM #854
Shibolet
Posts: 3,885

Oct 25, 2013 -- 8:06AM, ffb wrote:

Oct 25, 2013 -- 3:19AM, Shibolet wrote:


Virgin birth for the Messiah is what the thread suggests and I agree with the poster because of the following:


Isaiah 7:14 - "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son and shall call his name Immanuel." According to Amos 5:2 the virgin was Israel aka Ephrahim that gave birth to Judah when Israel was conquered by Assyria and transfered for good from the Land of Israel. It means that Hashem rejected the Tent of Joseph and confirmed Judah in Jerusalem for the sake of David. (Psa.78:67-69; I Kings 11:36) The new election of Judah in spite of Israel was meant to be a rebirth.


Isaiah 7:15 - "Butter and honey shall the son eat." It means that Judah would be the sole dweller throughout the whole Land of Israel.


Isaiah 7:22 - "For butter and honey shall every one eat that's left in the Land." Judah was the People left in the Land which explains the meaning of eating "butter and honey."


Isaiah 8:8 - "And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over; he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy Land O Immanuel." That a reference to the king of Assyria who invaded Judah but did not throw even a single arrow into Jerusalem the Land of Immanuel, a reference to Judah, the Jewish People who according to Ezekiel 37:22 would constitute the sole People in the whole Land of Israel.


That's IMHO, the virgin birth for the Messiah.   




The text doesn't say virgin. That has been well documented. The text is also referring to a specific person and series of events. Also well documented.


One should start with rashi.


www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/159...




 


The text says "Almah" which means virgin in terms of a young woman.

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 26, 2013 - 2:35PM #855
Pam34
Posts: 2,795

and around and around. The text says 'young woman'. If Isaiah wanted to say 'virgin' he would have used betulah ('virgin') and he didn't.




The thread is up to 43 pages and you still don't get it.



The only way we would use 'Biblical Judaism' is to indicate the form of Judaism practiced in the days when the temple stood, or something. Modern Judaism is modern. Medieval Judaism is medieval. Biblical Judaism is over 2000 years old.



Blessed are You, HaShem, Who blesses the years.
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4 years ago  ::  Oct 26, 2013 - 6:15PM #856
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,796

Oct 26, 2013 -- 2:35PM, Pam34 wrote:


and around and around. The text says 'young woman'. If Isaiah wanted to say 'virgin' he would have used betulah ('virgin') and he didn't.




The thread is up to 43 pages and you still don't get it.



The only way we would use 'Biblical Judaism' is to indicate the form of Judaism practiced in the days when the temple stood, or something. Modern Judaism is modern. Medieval Judaism is medieval. Biblical Judaism is over 2000 years old.






Some have to believe it means virgin or their theology does not work. Since having a child the normal natural way is taught to be nasty and dirty.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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4 years ago  ::  Oct 26, 2013 - 8:46PM #857
ffb
Posts: 2,356

Oct 26, 2013 -- 6:05AM, Shibolet wrote:

Oct 25, 2013 -- 8:06AM, ffb wrote:

Oct 25, 2013 -- 3:19AM, Shibolet wrote:


Virgin birth for the Messiah is what the thread suggests and I agree with the poster because of the following:


Isaiah 7:14 - "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son and shall call his name Immanuel." According to Amos 5:2 the virgin was Israel aka Ephrahim that gave birth to Judah when Israel was conquered by Assyria and transfered for good from the Land of Israel. It means that Hashem rejected the Tent of Joseph and confirmed Judah in Jerusalem for the sake of David. (Psa.78:67-69; I Kings 11:36) The new election of Judah in spite of Israel was meant to be a rebirth.


Isaiah 7:15 - "Butter and honey shall the son eat." It means that Judah would be the sole dweller throughout the whole Land of Israel.


Isaiah 7:22 - "For butter and honey shall every one eat that's left in the Land." Judah was the People left in the Land which explains the meaning of eating "butter and honey."


Isaiah 8:8 - "And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over; he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy Land O Immanuel." That a reference to the king of Assyria who invaded Judah but did not throw even a single arrow into Jerusalem the Land of Immanuel, a reference to Judah, the Jewish People who according to Ezekiel 37:22 would constitute the sole People in the whole Land of Israel.


That's IMHO, the virgin birth for the Messiah.   




The text doesn't say virgin. That has been well documented. The text is also referring to a specific person and series of events. Also well documented.


One should start with rashi.


www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/159...




 


The text says "Almah" which means virgin in terms of a young woman.


No, it doesn't. Read.



www.outreachjudaism.org/articles/alma-vi...

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2013 - 4:52AM #858
Shibolet
Posts: 3,885

Oct 26, 2013 -- 2:35PM, Pam34 wrote:


and around and around. The text says 'young woman'. If Isaiah wanted to say 'virgin' he would have used betulah ('virgin') and he didn't.


The thread is up to 43 pages and you still don't get it.


The only way we would use 'Biblical Judaism' is to indicate the form of Judaism practiced in the days when the temple stood, or something. Modern Judaism is modern. Medieval Judaism is medieval. Biblical Judaism is over 2000 years old.




Does it mean to you that Torah changes according to the time? I don't belong to that kind of Judaism. Isaiah mentions "Almah" which is a virgin in terms of a young woman. (Isa.7:14) Amos is the one who mentions Betulah which is a physical virgin. (Amos 5:7) Check the originals in Hebrew.

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2013 - 7:04PM #859
Pam34
Posts: 2,795


Well I wrote a nice long answer before deciding it was definitely against the conduct rules of the board. I enjoyed it, though.



On the theory that arguing with certain people is like, as the folk saying has it, trying to teach a pig to sing, I'm done.


Blessed are You, HaShem, Who blesses the years.
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4 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2013 - 4:28AM #860
Shibolet
Posts: 3,885

Oct 27, 2013 -- 7:04PM, Pam34 wrote:


Well I wrote a nice long answer before deciding it was definitely against the conduct rules of the board. I enjoyed it, though.


On the theory that arguing with certain people is like, as the folk saying has it, trying to teach a pig to sing, I'm done.




Thank you for your ad hominem. I hope you are feeling better now.

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