| 10 months ago :: Aug 07, 2012 - 7:58AM #1 | |
The New World Translation bible rendered in modern Greek has this at John 1:1 |
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| 10 months ago :: Aug 07, 2012 - 8:23AM #2 | |
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In the King James Version, that verse reads: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God [Greek, ton the·on′], and the Word was God [the·os′].” This verse contains two forms of the Greek noun the·os′ (god). The first is preceded by ton (the), a form of the Greek definite article, and in this case the word the·on′ refers to Almighty God. In the second instance, however, the·os′ has no definite article. Was the article mistakenly left out? The Gospel of John was written in Koine, or common Greek, which has specific rules regarding the use of the definite article. Bible scholar A. T. Robertson recognizes that if both subject and predicate have articles, “both are definite, treated as identical, one and the same, and interchangeable.” Robertson considers as an example Matthew 13:38, which reads: “The field [Greek, ho a·gros′] is the world [Greek, ho ko′smos].” The grammar enables us to understand that the world is also the field. What, though, if the subject has a definite article but the predicate does not, as in John 1:1? Citing that verse as an example, scholar James Allen Hewett emphasizes: “In such a construction the subject and predicate are not the same, equal, identical, or anything of the sort.” To illustrate, Hewett uses 1 John 1:5, which says: “God is light.” In Greek, “God” is ho the·os′ and therefore has a definite article. But phos for “light” is not preceded by any article. Hewett points out: “One can always . . . say of God He is characterized by light; one cannot always say of light that it is God.” Similar examples are found at John 4:24, “God is a Spirit,” and at 1 John 4:16, “God is love.” In both of these verses, the subjects have definite articles but the predicates, “Spirit” and “love,” do not. So the subjects and predicates are not interchangeable. These verses cannot mean that “Spirit is God” or “love is God.” Many Greek scholars and Bible translators acknowledge that John 1:1 highlights, not the identity, but a quality of “the Word.” Says Bible translator William Barclay: “Because [the apostle John] has no definite article in front of theos it becomes a description . . . John is not here identifying the Word with God. To put it very simply, he does not say that Jesus was God.” Scholar Jason David BeDuhn likewise says: “In Greek, if you leave off the article from theos in a sentence like the one in John 1:1c, then your readers will assume you mean ‘a god.’ . . . Its absence makes theos quite different than the definite ho theos, as different as ‘a god’ is from ‘God’ in English.” BeDuhn adds: “In John 1:1, the Word is not the one-and-only God, but is a god, or divine being.” Or to put it in the words of Joseph Henry Thayer, a scholar who worked on the American Standard Version: “The Logos [or, Word] was divine, not the divine Being himself.” Holly, there is also a list in another thread of other Bible translations that do not render John 1:1 as "the word was God." If you believe the NWT is wrong, then please show, using references, why these other translations are also wrong in how they translate the Koine Greek. |
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| 10 months ago :: Aug 07, 2012 - 8:26AM #3 | |
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Hi Barb, Koine Greek doesn't enter into this at all. It's a question about translating from English into modern Greek, as the NWT has done. You would have to know how to translate English to Greek. Do you?
Holly |
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| 10 months ago :: Aug 07, 2012 - 8:38AM #4 | |
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Koine Greek enters into this discussion, Holly, because that's the language we are translating. Do you understand that? Are you going to respond to any points made in my previous post? |
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| 10 months ago :: Aug 07, 2012 - 8:49AM #5 | |
Koine Greek is NOT the language that was used to translate the NWT into Greek. It's a translation from English to modern Greek. That's what this thread is about. Your posts are off topic.
Holly |
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| 10 months ago :: Aug 07, 2012 - 9:12AM #6 | |
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Barb, I apologize. Koine Greek does have a bearing on this, but from the point that in Koine John 1:1c has this word order: καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος While the NWT in Greek has this word order: και ο Λόγος ήταν θεός. Can you tell me why the two are different? Holly |
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| 10 months ago :: Aug 07, 2012 - 9:45AM #7 | |
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Holly, the Kingdom Interlinear translation is a literal translation from Greek to English. An interlinear translation is literal, word for word. One of the earliest translations written in Koine was the Septuagint, which was used in the NWT and Kingdom Interlinear translations. As previously noted, other translators, working with their knowledge of Biblical Greek, concluded that the phrase “the Word was God” should be translated differently. How? Here are a few examples: “The Logos [Word] was divine.” (A New Translation of the Bible) “The Word was a god.” (The New Testament in an Improved Version) “The Word was with God and shared his nature.” (The Translator’s New Testament) According to these translations, the Word is not God himself.* Instead, because of his high position among Jehovah’s creatures, the Word is referred to as “a god.” Here the term “god” means “mighty one.” You can't say that these translators were biased by the WTS. Why did they also render John 1:1 the way they did? And here is why context is so important. For instance, consider what John further writes in chapter 1, verse 18: “No man has seen [Almighty] God at any time.” However, humans have seen Jesus, the Son, for John says: “The Word [Jesus] was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory.” (John 1:14, KJ) How, then, could the Son be part of Almighty God? John also states that the Word was “with God.” But how can an individual be with someone and at the same time be that person? Moreover, as recorded at John 17:3, Jesus makes a clear distinction between himself and his heavenly Father. He calls his Father “the only true God.” And toward the end of his Gospel, John sums up matters by saying: “These have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God.” (John 20:31) Notice that Jesus is called, not God, but the Son of God. This additional information provided in the Gospel of John shows how John 1:1 should be understood. Jesus, the Word, is “a god” in the sense that he has a high position but is not the same as Almighty God. Greek grammar and the context strongly indicate that the New World Translation rendering is correct and that “the Word” should not be identified as the “God” referred to earlier in the verse. Nevertheless, the fact that the Greek language of the first century did not have an indefinite article (“a” or “an”) leaves the matter open to question in some minds. It is for this reason that a Bible translation in a language that was spoken in the earliest centuries of our Common Era is very interesting. The language is the Sahidic dialect of Coptic. The Coptic language was spoken in Egypt in the centuries immediately following Jesus’ earthly ministry, and the Sahidic dialect was an early literary form of the language. Regarding the earliest Coptic translations of the Bible, The Anchor Bible Dictionary says: “Since the [Septuagint] and the [Christian Greek Scriptures] were being translated into Coptic during the 3d century C.E., the Coptic version is based on [Greek manuscripts] which are significantly older than the vast majority of extant witnesses.” The Sahidic Coptic text is especially interesting for two reasons. First, as indicated above, it reflects an understanding of Scripture dating from before the fourth century, which was when the Trinity became official doctrine. Second, Coptic grammar is relatively close to English grammar in one important aspect. The earliest translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures were into Syriac, Latin, and Coptic. Syriac and Latin, like the Greek of those days, do not have an indefinite article. Coptic, however, does. Moreover, scholar Thomas O. Lambdin, in his work Introduction to Sahidic Coptic, says: “The use of the Coptic articles, both definite and indefinite, corresponds closely to the use of the articles in English.” Hence, the Coptic translation supplies interesting evidence as to how John 1:1 would have been understood back then. What do we find? The Sahidic Coptic translation uses an indefinite article with the word “god” in the final part of John 1:1. Thus, when rendered into modern English, the translation reads: “And the Word was a god.” Evidently, those ancient translators realized that John’s words recorded at John 1:1 did not mean that Jesus was to be identified as Almighty God. The Word was a god, not Almighty God. |
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| 10 months ago :: Aug 07, 2012 - 9:59AM #8 | |
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Hi Barb, If there's an answer in your long cut and paste to what I asked about the word order, could you bold it for me, please? Thanks. Holly |
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| 10 months ago :: Aug 07, 2012 - 10:21AM #9 | |
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See above. Now try reading what I posted. |
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| 10 months ago :: Aug 07, 2012 - 10:29AM #10 | |
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Hi Barb, Do you understand what I'm asking? Do you see that the word order is different? καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος και ο Λόγος ήταν θεός. If you don't know why, that's fine, but none of this stuff that you're posting addresses this. You do realize, don't you, that the NWT in Greek was translated from English into Greek.
Holly |
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