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Switch to Forum Live View Should god save her?
2 years ago  ::  Aug 05, 2012 - 10:12AM #1
Kwinters
Posts: 21,096

A believing Christian is stranded on a desert island.  She has just enough food and water to live, and as been able to fashion shelter for herself. She manages to survive for a few weeks, but then she gets sick.  Her illness progresses and is close to becoming fatal.

She prays to God to heal her.  She prays to God to send help.

There is no one but god who can help her, since no other human being knows of her circumstances or condition. Only God.

Since she has no one but God who can save her, does God have an obligation as an all-good, all-powerful being to answer the prayers of this good, faithful and believing Christian woman? 

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Aug 05, 2012 - 10:27AM #2
Blü
Posts: 24,687

Yahweh seems very often to take the view that people are better off dead, and this is true whether they believe in and rely on him or not.  He daily lets innocent people of all kinds (including believers) die quite horrible deaths.


And the answer to your question is, Yes, he has a duty to save the lady in your example, and yes, he's morally in the wrong to withhold action - and doubly so because for him, providing the remedy is no effort at all.


What this shows is that absolute power corrupts absolutely.


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2 years ago  ::  Aug 05, 2012 - 10:43AM #3
3neez
Posts: 8,468

He could send her a soccer ball and name it Wilson. Together they could build a raft and float away.

"When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others. It is the same when you are stupid." - Ricky Gervais

“In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds however, the timid join him, For then it costs nothing to be a patriot.” - Mark Twain
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2 years ago  ::  Aug 05, 2012 - 10:59AM #4
Kemmer
Posts: 16,265

Someone said, "The really scary thing is that the universe is NOT hostile, it is indifferent".

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2 years ago  ::  Aug 05, 2012 - 11:01AM #5
3neez
Posts: 8,468

In which dimension?

"When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others. It is the same when you are stupid." - Ricky Gervais

“In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds however, the timid join him, For then it costs nothing to be a patriot.” - Mark Twain
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2 years ago  ::  Aug 05, 2012 - 11:17AM #6
miknik5
Posts: 7,684

Aug 5, 2012 -- 10:12AM, Kwinters wrote:


A believing Christian is stranded on a desert island.  She has just enough food and water to live, and as been able to fashion shelter for herself. She manages to survive for a few weeks, but then she gets sick.  Her illness progresses and is close to becoming fatal.

She prays to God to heal her.  She prays to God to send help.

There is no one but god who can help her, since no other human being knows of her circumstances or condition. Only God.

Since she has no one but God who can save her, does God have an obligation as an all-good, all-powerful being to answer the prayers of this good, faithful and believing Christian woman? 




That woman has more of a chance of being in the presence of GOD and knowing that she is in the presence of GOD, than all who run around in the hub bub of life thinking that they are truly living.


I am sorry...but, there are no false "treasures" to compete for her attention...no man-made interference or influence, nothing to distract her from her prayers and intercession and communing with GOD...and she will know that HE is near...and will be at peace...if she physically dies or if she physically recovers

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2 years ago  ::  Aug 05, 2012 - 11:22AM #7
Kwinters
Posts: 21,096

Aug 5, 2012 -- 10:27AM, Blü wrote:


Yahweh seems very often to take the view that people are better off dead, and this is true whether they believe in and rely on him or not.  He daily lets innocent people of all kinds (including believers) die quite horrible deaths.


And the answer to your question is, Yes, he has a duty to save the lady in your example, and yes, he's morally in the wrong to withhold action - and doubly so because for him, providing the remedy is no effort at all.


What this shows is that absolute power corrupts absolutely.






The purpose of my thought experiment is to remove the response 'humans are responsible for ending suffering, not god' but eliminating the possibility for human responsibility.


The question is meant to get at the question, if there are no humans to help, does god owe a believing follower the aid they pray for.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Aug 05, 2012 - 11:24AM #8
Kwinters
Posts: 21,096

Aug 5, 2012 -- 11:17AM, miknik5 wrote:


Aug 5, 2012 -- 10:12AM, Kwinters wrote:


A believing Christian is stranded on a desert island.  She has just enough food and water to live, and as been able to fashion shelter for herself. She manages to survive for a few weeks, but then she gets sick.  Her illness progresses and is close to becoming fatal.

She prays to God to heal her.  She prays to God to send help.

There is no one but god who can help her, since no other human being knows of her circumstances or condition. Only God.

Since she has no one but God who can save her, does God have an obligation as an all-good, all-powerful being to answer the prayers of this good, faithful and believing Christian woman? 




That woman has more of a chance of being in the presence of GOD and knowing that she is in the presence of GOD, than all who run around in the hub bub of life thinking that they are truly living.


I am sorry...but, there are no false "treasures" to compete for her attention...no man-made interference or influence, nothing to distract her from her prayers and intercession and communing with GOD...and she will know that HE is near...and will be at peace...if she physically dies or if she physically recovers





For those who give their life over to god, what does god owe them in return when they ask for his help?

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Aug 05, 2012 - 11:34AM #9
REteach
Posts: 14,228

I think playing the "God lets others help or harm you because of free will" card is actually a pathetic commentary on God.


However, in this context I do think sometimes we need to think of the difference between healing and curing.  I get the impression some relgions, perhaps the Navajo if I understand them correctly, see a difference.  


So, in this particular context, it may be that this woman is healed rather than cured.  That she is in harmony with the universe even while being physically ill and dying.  


I think we might all be better off if we could find this difference for ourselves. 

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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2 years ago  ::  Aug 05, 2012 - 11:53AM #10
miknik5
Posts: 7,684

Aug 5, 2012 -- 11:24AM, Kwinters wrote:


Aug 5, 2012 -- 11:17AM, miknik5 wrote:


Aug 5, 2012 -- 10:12AM, Kwinters wrote:


A believing Christian is stranded on a desert island.  She has just enough food and water to live, and as been able to fashion shelter for herself. She manages to survive for a few weeks, but then she gets sick.  Her illness progresses and is close to becoming fatal.

She prays to God to heal her.  She prays to God to send help.

There is no one but god who can help her, since no other human being knows of her circumstances or condition. Only God.

Since she has no one but God who can save her, does God have an obligation as an all-good, all-powerful being to answer the prayers of this good, faithful and believing Christian woman? 




That woman has more of a chance of being in the presence of GOD and knowing that she is in the presence of GOD, than all who run around in the hub bub of life thinking that they are truly living.


I am sorry...but, there are no false "treasures" to compete for her attention...no man-made interference or influence, nothing to distract her from her prayers and intercession and communing with GOD...and she will know that HE is near...and will be at peace...if she physically dies or if she physically recovers





For those who give their life over to god, what does god owe them in return when they ask for his help?




The other way around, for those who have been given LIFE...owe their lives to HIM...and to trust in HIS SOVEREIGNTY in all things...even the things that we do not at that moment fully understand.

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