Money itself was never the issue, Theo.

It's what people do to get it & what they do once they have it.

If you're getting uptight because of a certain article, you need to remember that the article never bothered with the "why" aspect.

In the case of the "for-profit" institutions, this was done so that the institution could pay its own bills.

Deseret Books? They're the ones who publish the scriptures and the church's instructional manuals. Because it's a for-profit company, their book sales subsidize the manuals, allowing congregations around the world to give them away for free.

Bonneville Communications? They're the ones who broadcast General Conference, Music & The Spoken Word, and other church functions.

The farms and ranches? That's where the church gets the bulk of the food for the welfare program.

Et cetra.

For some of the other ventures, they were done to fulfill an unmet need.

City Creek was part of a much larger push by the church to roll back blight within downtown SLC; the idea was that if the church redeveloped the downtown area then retailers and residents would return back to that part of the city.

Deseret News was created so that there'd be a daily newspaper serving the state.

Bonneville, as a secondary consideration, was also done up so that there'd be a major broadcaster - KSL - serving the state.

ZCMI was created so that the membership could have a place to sell their wares. ZCMI no longer exists, as the church sold it to Macy's in 2000; its purpose was fulfilled, and so it was time to let it go.

Zion Bancorp was created so that the membership could have a reliable financial institution; its purpose was also fulfilled, and so it was spun off as an independent company.

The Polynesian Culture Center was created so that the students at BYU - Hawaii could have summer jobs that would allow them to remain in school, thus getting their degrees that much faster.

Et cetra.

Rather than getting upset over what the church is doing with its money, how about asking what your church is doing with its money.

Rather than getting upset over what the church is doing with its money, how about asking what your church is doing with its money.

There is really no comparison, my Church is not a money making business, the most we do is invest what we have. My church is funded by the tithes and designated offerings of our members. Even so, we have several accounts, and our purpose is to manage these assets in a productive manner while we pay our monthly expenses and accumulate enough money to purchase property and build a church facility.

Who owns these accounts? An 801c corporation is the legal entity representing the membership of my Church. Who manages these accounts? Our bookkeeper is elected once a year by the vote of the membership... this is not currently a paid position, although it may become such someday, given the future growth of the Church and the complexities of its maintenance.

Moreover, we are well on our way toward achieving those ends. Even so, when our church facility is finished, the property and all assets, as now, will be owned by the 801c Corporation, which in turn is owned by the Church Membership. Our pastor is a member also, but he is not the elected chairman, and thus he has no more control than any other member as to what is done with the money in our accounts. We have several business meetings per year open to everyone who attends our Church, only official members are allowed to vote.

We also have a benevolence fund that is set apart for charity purposes, members are able to designate their giving toward assisting other members of our congregation and people in the community. We also collect non-perishable foods and work in cooperation with other Churches to supply the local food banks. Being a small Church of less than 100 members does limit what we can do, but it has not limited our desire to help those in need.  

Of course, I recognize that in any organization managed by human beings, there is a potential for abuse. These things are a matter of trust and accountability. Even so, for those interested, the bookkeeper compiles a business repost that gets published once a year and distributed to the members... frankly I am amazed at the number of members who really get into reading the business report... I have never been into the whole thing myself.  

So, enough about the finances of my church - what did Jesus and the apostles teach about Mammon, our involvement with it, and its proper stewardship?

~ Theophilus

Jul 21, 2012 -- 10:51AM, Theo wrote:

There is really no comparison, my Church is not a money making business, the most we do is invest what we have.

...then your church is a money-making business.

After all, it's likely pulling down interest on those investments.

You know why banks pay interest on accounts?

The money doesn't sit in the vaults; only a percentage mandated by the Federal Reserve does.

The rest is used to make loans to other customers of the bank. A portion of the interest paid by the debtors is used to provide interest to the person with the account to repay them for the use of the money, and the rest goes to fund the bank's operations.

So if your church has any sort of bank account, they're in the business of making money.

Who owns these accounts? An 801c corporation is the legal entity representing the membership of my Church. Who manages these accounts? Our bookkeeper is elected once a year by the vote of the membership... this is not currently a paid position, although it may become such someday, given the future growth of the Church and the complexities of its maintenance.

If it does become a paid position, then by your own standard your church is hypocritical.

I'm the finance clerk for my congregation, and I do it for free.

If we were anywheres near as secular as you claim, my time would be worth a fair $10 - $20 / hour, give or take.

Our pastor is a member also, but he is not the elected chairman, and thus he has no more control than any other member as to what is done with the money in our accounts. We have several business meetings per year open to everyone who attends our Church, only official members are allowed to vote.

It takes a minimum of two signatures for anyone in the church to cut a check for anything, said check is null and void if it doesn't have the official security features in place, and oh by the way we'd better record cutting that check in the first place or else SLC is going to be breathing down our necks.

In other words, we've already got the strict standards in place that you're bragging about.

We also have a benevolence fund that is set apart for charity purposes,

So do we.

It's where all the "fast offering" money goes.

We also collect non-perishable foods and work in cooperation with other Churches to supply the local food banks.

The church has its own farms, ranches, and canneries to provide for its own in-house welfare system.

And that's on top of what the members do.

You're not going to win this little boasting contest, in case you haven't already figured that one out.

Being a small Church of less than 100 members does limit what we can do, but it has not limited our desire to help those in need.

"Small"?

The congregation I'm in averages 20 - 50 people each Sunday. So by raw numbers, you're a lot better off than we are.

Of course, I recognize that in any organization managed by human beings, there is a potential for abuse. These things are a matter of trust and accountability. Even so, for those interested, the bookkeeper compiles a business repost that gets published once a year and distributed to the members... frankly I am amazed at the number of members who really get into reading the business report... I have never been into the whole thing myself.

I get audited twice a year, and have to put up with monthly reports from SLC about every last penny allocated in or out.

We're not the California State Democratic Party.

Okay, thank you Iron. 

Are there any other practicing Mormons on this forum who are capable of (or at least willing to try) explaining the teachings of Christ (i.e. that would involve, giving your interpretation or understanding of the text) so there is some recognizable continuity between what Jesus said, and your explanation???

~ Theophilus

Matt 6:19-21 >  "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal;  but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.  For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.  Matt 6:24 >  "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

Luke 16:1-13 >  He also said to His disciples: "There was a certain rich man who had a steward, and an accusation was brought to him that this man was wasting his goods.  So he called him and said to him, 'What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your stewardship, for you can no longer be steward.'

3-4 "Then the steward said within himself, 'What shall I do? For my master is taking the stewardship away from me. I cannot dig; I am ashamed to beg.  I have resolved what to do, that when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.'

5-8 "So he called every one of his master's debtors to him, and said to the first, 'How much do you owe my master?'  And he said, 'A hundred measures of oil.' So he said to him, 'Take your bill, and sit down quickly and write fifty.' Then he said to another, 'And how much do you owe?' So he said, 'A hundred measures of wheat.' And he said to him, 'Take your bill, and write eighty.'  So the master commended the unjust steward because he had dealt shrewdly. For the sons of this world are more shrewd in their generation than the sons of light.

9- 12"And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by unrighteous mammon, that when you fail, they may receive you into an everlasting home.  He who is faithful in what is least is faithful also in much; and he who is unjust in what is least is unjust also in much. Therefore if you have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?  And if you have not been faithful in what is another man's, who will give you what is your own?

13 "No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon."

1 Tim 6:5-10 "...who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.  Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.  And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content. But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows."

Jesus called mammon "unrighteous," and he taught His disciples to not worry about the things of the world, the things on which the Gentiles set their minds, but to seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, for God knows the things we have need of, and He will take care of us and add these things to us if we trust in HIm. We live in the world and have to work within the monetary system we have, but we are not to set our hearts on wealth, we are not to seek after wealth, and we are not to hoard our wealth and trust in what we have provided for ourselves. Jesus taught those who are rich, who believed in Him, to sell all their possessions and give to the poor, and come follow Him preaching the Gospel. You can bet there were not many Mormons among the multitudes of His followers.

I understand that America today is very different from Judea and Galilee 2000 years ago... even so, the love of money was the root to all kinds of evil back then, and unrighteous mammon ruled the day, and things have changed very little in this respect. America was founded upon the "pursuit of happiness" which to the authors and founding father's of America meant... the acquisition of property. They equated happiness with getting rich and acquiring property. Believe it or not Iron, but Jesus taught exactly the opposite. He taught His disciples to seek God and His kingdom first, and then trust God and allow Him to add to them the things they needed. And over and over again, He said things against the rich, like comparing the rich man, who hoarded his earthly wealth for himself, to a poor beggar named Lazareus... the one who died and ended up in Hades, while the poor man also died, but ended up comforted in Abraham's bosom.

Luke 12:14-25 >  And He said to them, "Take heed and beware of covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of the things he possesses."  Then He spoke a parable to them, saying: "The ground of a certain rich man yielded plentifully.  And he thought within himself, saying, 'What shall I do, since I have no room to store my crops?' So he said, 'I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build greater, and there I will store all my crops and my goods.  And I will say to my soul, "Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years; take your ease; eat, drink, and be merry."' But God said to him, 'Fool! This night your soul will be required of you; then whose will those things be which you have provided?' "So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God."

Then He said to His disciples, "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; nor about the body, what you will put on.  Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing.  Consider the ravens, for they neither sow nor reap, which have neither storehouse nor barn; and God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds? 

What is it about, "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, and you cannot serve God and unrighteous mammon," that Mormons do not understand??? You see folks the point I am trying to make is that Mormons are not sincere followers of Jesus Christ, they are business men in three piece suits who believe godliness is a means of gain, and think the pursuit of wealth is what this life is all about.

~ Theophilus