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Switch to Forum Live View qualifications to be called a god
2 years ago  ::  Jul 30, 2012 - 8:17PM #51
gorm-sionnach
Posts: 1,663

Jul 30, 2012 -- 6:30PM, Aka_me wrote:


Jul 30, 2012 -- 5:47PM, gorm-sionnach wrote:

Myths do not have to be specific stories, but rather they are lenses through which one imparts understanding or meaning. A perfect example of a myth which is not specific to "actual timelines, specific characters or theoretical locations" would be the "myth of progress".


Progress, or that tomorrow will be better than yesterday is an idea that has become engrained in the psyche of western culture. It provides a method of understanding and interpreting events, but it is not a narrative which is based on any sort of scientific principle. It is, however, based on a number of concepts or beliefs which people find and impart meaning from, as well as into. The fact that there is no scientific basis, no mathematical formula which proves that progress is the natural state of things, does not keep people from believing in its validity as a way of understanding history, or of viewing the future.



facts of understanding reality...


how earth revolves around the sun, not the universe around the earth


the world is round, not flat


that lightening is a natural phenomenon, not some god's wrath


sacrificing virgins does not appease any gods


in communicating all around the world simultaneously at the speed of electricity


all affect human perception in such a way that with one person from today and one person from two thousand years ago, it would be blatently obvious who was who


because of progress.





Ah, you see its so ingrained in your thinking you are unable to see it for what it is. Observing that, for example, paradigm shifts occur in astronomy or physics, in no way supports the idea that history naturally progresses. 


Can you prove, for example, that sacrificial offerings and particularly that of a virgin, does not appease gods? The largest religion in the world, for example, holds that a sacrificial offering of a pure, perfect being, did in fact appease, well your god actually. I understand you're not a Christian, but certainly you at least recognize that you worship the god of Abraham? And can at least conceptualize the significance of such an offering in the Christian worldivew?

Truth in our hearts, Strength in our arms, Fulfillment in our tongues.
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 31, 2012 - 12:10AM #52
Aka_me
Posts: 11,890

Jul 30, 2012 -- 8:17PM, gorm-sionnach wrote:

I understand you're not a Christian, but certainly you at least recognize that you worship the god of Abraham? And can at least conceptualize the significance of such an offering in the Christian worldivew?



I believe Jesus is the Christ, Messiah, Son of God, Savior. and do my best to obey His 2 commands... love God and love thy neighbor. therefore I consider myself a Christian (in addition to a Jew for believing in Moses, a Zoroastrian for believing in Zoroaster, a Muslim for believing in Muhammad, and Hindu for believing in Krishna, and a Buddhist for believing in Buddha, all of which culminates in the sum total of being Baha'i).


Jews used to make sacrifices, but they stopped quite some time ago. and they offered livestock if I remember correctly. nowhere I'm aware of in Abrahamic tradition have there been human sacrific. it was usually the offerer who ate the offering with some portion going to a priest.


fortunately today we have the abstract reasoning (specifically because of PROGRESS) to understand sacrificing humans as a gross violation of that individual's human rights.


they didn't have the concept of human rights back in Mayan times to even carry on such a debate, if they did have the concept of human rights there automatically would not have been such horrific violations.

internet troll... anyone who won't stop posting about bad spelling.
the government KILLS and EXPERIMENTS and TORTURES people, without ever apologizing, being held accountable or punished. and you expect me to believe they've automagically grown a conscience to not continue? like bloody hades they have.
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 31, 2012 - 7:04AM #53
gorm-sionnach
Posts: 1,663

Jul 31, 2012 -- 12:10AM, Aka_me wrote:


Jews used to make sacrifices, but they stopped quite some time ago. and they offered livestock if I remember correctly. nowhere I'm aware of in Abrahamic tradition have there been human sacrific. it was usually the offerer who ate the offering with some portion going to a priest.



And the only reason they stopped doing so was because of the destruction of the Temple. Of course the theology behind such an offering is different than in other religions, as it was more a penitent act than anything else.


]fortunately today we have the abstract reasoning (specifically because of PROGRESS) to understand sacrificing humans as a gross violation of that individual's human rights.



That isn't thanks to progress though, its due to a shift in reasoning. In no way was this reasoning a natural progression from a simpler to more enlightened state. That's why progress is a myth.

fortunately today we have the abstract reasoning (specifically because of PROGRESS) to understand sacrificing humans as a gross violation of that individual's human rights.[/quote]


That isn't thanks to progress though, its due to a shift in reasoning. In no way was this reasoning a natural progression from a simpler to more enlightened state. That's why progress is a myth.


]they didn't have the concept of human rights back in Mayan times to even carry on such a debate, if they did have the concept of human rights there automatically would not have been such horrific violations.




So it was fine for your omnipotent and omniscent deity to demand a human sacrifice, to change a law he himself established? Why is that morally acceptable?


You must also be aware that the notion of human sacrifice extends beyond the idea of sacrificing virgins? That in many cultures it was actually the king himself who took on the burden of his people, and offered his life to the gods? Some cultures simply  wrote:

they didn't have the concept of human rights back in Mayan times to even carry on such a debate, if they did have the concept of human rights there automatically would not have been such horrific violations.[/quote]


So it was fine for your omnipotent and omniscent deity to demand a human sacrifice, to change a law he himself established? Why is that morally acceptable?


You must also be aware that the notion of human sacrifice extends beyond the idea of sacrificing virgins? That in many cultures it was actually the king himself who took on the burden of his people, and offered his life to the gods? Some cultures simply valued courage over life.


Now, lets be perfectly clear, I'm not trying to argue for a return to such practices. Simply that judging a given time period by anothers standards is bad history.

Truth in our hearts, Strength in our arms, Fulfillment in our tongues.
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 31, 2012 - 1:14PM #54
Aka_me
Posts: 11,890

Jul 31, 2012 -- 7:04AM, gorm-sionnach wrote:

So it was fine for your omnipotent and omniscent deity to demand a human sacrifice, to change a law he himself established? Why is that morally acceptable?



I think you are grossly mistaken on this.


2 Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree:


3 And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place.


29 When the Lord thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land;


30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.


31 Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.


that makes perfectly clear what Creator thinks of human sacrifice to gods.


Jul 31, 2012 -- 7:04AM, gorm-sionnach wrote:

And the only reason they stopped doing so was because of the destruction of the Temple. Of course the theology behind such an offering is different than in other religions, as it was more a penitent act than anything else.



I believe we have no way of knowing "the destruction of the temple" is the ONLY reason Jews stopped performing sacrifice.


when we look at the "odd" laws of Old Testament days, such as purifying women after childbirth... there appears to me no logical reason to do so. and after giving it much thought I arrived at the conclusion that Jews were commanded to perform rituals similar to their neighboring cultures so as to make it easier to convert them.


such that when the neighboring cultures stopped doing things like sacrifice or purifying women after childbirth, then there was no necessity for the Jews to do so either.

internet troll... anyone who won't stop posting about bad spelling.
the government KILLS and EXPERIMENTS and TORTURES people, without ever apologizing, being held accountable or punished. and you expect me to believe they've automagically grown a conscience to not continue? like bloody hades they have.
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2 years ago  ::  Aug 07, 2012 - 4:56PM #55
Aka_me
Posts: 11,890

so basically polytheists get to cherry pick between myth in allegory (as in snow white)


and myth in literalism (hold the universe together with duck tape and bubble gum)


to define their comfort zone. It's sad, really.

internet troll... anyone who won't stop posting about bad spelling.
the government KILLS and EXPERIMENTS and TORTURES people, without ever apologizing, being held accountable or punished. and you expect me to believe they've automagically grown a conscience to not continue? like bloody hades they have.
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2 years ago  ::  Aug 07, 2012 - 5:01PM #56
Sacrificialgoddess
Posts: 9,496

Jul 31, 2012 -- 1:14PM, Aka_me wrote:


Jul 31, 2012 -- 7:04AM, gorm-sionnach wrote:

So it was fine for your omnipotent and omniscent deity to demand a human sacrifice, to change a law he himself established? Why is that morally acceptable?



I think you are grossly mistaken on this.


2 Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree:


3 And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place.


29 When the Lord thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land;


30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.


31 Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.


that makes perfectly clear what Creator thinks of human sacrifice to gods.


Jul 31, 2012 -- 7:04AM, gorm-sionnach wrote:

And the only reason they stopped doing so was because of the destruction of the Temple. Of course the theology behind such an offering is different than in other religions, as it was more a penitent act than anything else.



I believe we have no way of knowing "the destruction of the temple" is the ONLY reason Jews stopped performing sacrifice.


when we look at the "odd" laws of Old Testament days, such as purifying women after childbirth... there appears to me no logical reason to do so. and after giving it much thought I arrived at the conclusion that Jews were commanded to perform rituals similar to their neighboring cultures so as to make it easier to convert them.


such that when the neighboring cultures stopped doing things like sacrifice or purifying women after childbirth, then there was no necessity for the Jews to do so either.




You are using someone else's book to try to pursuade us?



Seriously?



Care to try again?

Dark Energy. It can be found in the observable Universe. Found in ratios of 75% more than any other substance. Dark Energy. It can be found in religious extremists, in cheerleaders. To come to the conclusion that Dark signifies mean and malevolent would define 75% of the Universe as an evil force. Alternatively, to think that some cheerleaders don't have razors in their snatch is to be foolishly unarmed.

-- Tori Amos
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2 years ago  ::  Aug 07, 2012 - 6:41PM #57
Aka_me
Posts: 11,890

Aug 7, 2012 -- 5:01PM, Sacrificialgoddess wrote:

You are using someone else's book to try to pursuade us?



Seriously?



Care to try again?



what would I be trying to pursuade you of? we took a little detour in the absence of any further lessons.


I'm trying to understand how much of polytheism is allegorical and how much is literal.


when UPG happens... is it originating from fictional characters, or beings with self awareness?


dishing it out is easy... but the receiving end is a different story ain't it?

internet troll... anyone who won't stop posting about bad spelling.
the government KILLS and EXPERIMENTS and TORTURES people, without ever apologizing, being held accountable or punished. and you expect me to believe they've automagically grown a conscience to not continue? like bloody hades they have.
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2 years ago  ::  Aug 08, 2012 - 4:15PM #58
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,761

Aug 7, 2012 -- 6:41PM, Aka_me wrote:



what would I be trying to pursuade you of? we took a little detour in the absence of any further lessons.


I'm trying to understand how much of polytheism is allegorical and how much is literal.


when UPG happens... is it originating from fictional characters, or beings with self awareness?


dishing it out is easy... but the receiving end is a different story ain't it?




You are not able to understand because you are so in love with your own mythology. You consider the myths in the bible to be true, but insult and make fun of those who do not believe your favourite myths. You have no evidence of your favourite god being real, so you come here and say nasty things about what Pagans believe.


Since you seem unable to realise this, Paganism is many different religions, not just one. Every Pagan has different gods and different mythologies. No two Pagans think alike, Pagans are NOT homogenised.  Nor are they brainwashed into believe a particular set of rules and dogma.


Many Pagans have actually met their gods, as in met. Not just read about in a book.


You clearly show you are not here to learn, but are here to insult and make fun of. Just as you do on the atheist board. Pagans do not need any lessons from your favourite mythological book, at all.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  Aug 08, 2012 - 8:15PM #59
Aka_me
Posts: 11,890

Aug 8, 2012 -- 4:15PM, mainecaptain wrote:

Many Pagans have actually met their gods, as in met. Not just read about in a book.



and got their autograph of course, curious what that would fetch on ebay.


you can honestly say you haven't "questioned" Christians in wondering why they believe what they believe?


it's a debate forum after all. just stick to dishing it out... cause receiving idn't quite as easy.

internet troll... anyone who won't stop posting about bad spelling.
the government KILLS and EXPERIMENTS and TORTURES people, without ever apologizing, being held accountable or punished. and you expect me to believe they've automagically grown a conscience to not continue? like bloody hades they have.
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2 years ago  ::  Aug 09, 2012 - 7:30AM #60
gorm-sionnach
Posts: 1,663

Aug 7, 2012 -- 4:56PM, Aka_me wrote:


so basically polytheists get to cherry pick between myth in allegory (as in snow white)


and myth in literalism (hold the universe together with duck tape and bubble gum)


to define their comfort zone. It's sad, really.




Not at all. Myth is not, necessarily, allegorical. Myths can contain allegory, but they are more often about their own content, best understood through their own context. As I mentioned before, and as you seem to not understand, there is a marked difference between mythos and logos. You're difficulty seems to be in trying to understand mythos, through logos; which is comprable to trying to understand history through mathematics.


As to individual religious experiences, and especially UPG, that is a different matter. People have religious experiences, this is not something which is debatable; it is simply a fact. How one understands those experiences, and makes sense of them is dependent on a number of factors, but the experiences occur none the less.

Truth in our hearts, Strength in our arms, Fulfillment in our tongues.
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