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Switch to Forum Live View Absolute Proof for God.
2 years ago  ::  Jul 07, 2012 - 10:52AM #1
57
Posts: 23,432
Devout Atheist often demand proof for God ......."So keep it up and we will keep reminding you; until you can produce EVIDENCE for it - it is CRAP."Wink

But when presented with evidence they never really disqualify the evidence.  Rather they handwave.

For example, watch the Atheist responces to this thread as they try to reply to the topics.

1)  Is the earth as old as the atheist claim?   Here's proof that it is indeed young. 
Radioisotopes and the  age of the earth. RATE.

2) Life is so complex there is absolutly no way a natural process could have brought it about.   There is a short 3 min video at the Signature in the Cell site you can watch.  How will the Atheist refute it? 

3) There are over 300 prophetic prophecies fulfilled that show the bible divine origin.  The book Evidence that demand a verdict closes the door on atheist.  You can visit the site and get a sample of the book. 

4) Because we, stuff, the universe is here...there has to be a God. There are 3 possibilities.  Two which can be ruled out.
a) The universe self created...which is ruled out because you can't be and not be at the same time.
b) The universe always existed....in this case the Atheist must then admit something existing from eternity past is possible, but run into problems when change (big bang) was required.  Something had to cause the change.  That would be God.
c) God created the universe.  The only available option left.

4 examples are enough for a start.......have at it my Atheist friends.  I presented examples from geology, biology, prophecy and philosophy. 

Here's the rules:
No handwaving.
No mockery. 

Refute God.   

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 07, 2012 - 11:01AM #2
Utilyan
Posts: 5,899

Why would God create a universe?   (trap is set)

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 07, 2012 - 11:09AM #3
Seefan
Posts: 3,969

Jul 7, 2012 -- 11:01AM, Utilyan wrote:


Why would God create a universe?   (trap is set)





But that's not really the question!   57 seems to be asking you to prove that He didn't create the universe ...


 

Today the one overriding need is unity and harmony among the beloved of the Lord, for they should have among them but one heart and soul and should, so far as in them lieth, unitedly withstand the hostility of all the peoples of the world ... (Baha'i Writings)
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 07, 2012 - 11:12AM #4
Sacrificialgoddess
Posts: 9,496

Jul 7, 2012 -- 11:09AM, Seefan wrote:


Jul 7, 2012 -- 11:01AM, Utilyan wrote:


Why would God create a universe?   (trap is set)





But that's not really the question!   57 seems to be asking you to prove that He didn't create the universe ...


 




Which, when you think about it, isn't really a valid question, either.

Dark Energy. It can be found in the observable Universe. Found in ratios of 75% more than any other substance. Dark Energy. It can be found in religious extremists, in cheerleaders. To come to the conclusion that Dark signifies mean and malevolent would define 75% of the Universe as an evil force. Alternatively, to think that some cheerleaders don't have razors in their snatch is to be foolishly unarmed.

-- Tori Amos
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 07, 2012 - 11:12AM #5
57
Posts: 23,432

Jul 7, 2012 -- 11:01AM, Utilyan wrote:


Why would God create a universe?   (trap is set)




Why not? 

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 07, 2012 - 11:33AM #6
Seefan
Posts: 3,969

Jul 7, 2012 -- 11:12AM, Sacrificialgoddess wrote:

 

Jul 7, 2012 -- 11:09AM, Seefan wrote:


Jul 7, 2012 -- 11:01AM, Utilyan wrote:

  Why would God create a universe?   (trap is set) 




But that's not really the question!   57 seems to be asking you to prove that He didn't create the universe ...  



Which, when you think about it, isn't really a valid question, either. 



I actually think it has validity.  While you may not think it's a valid question science has been trying to deal with it for years in their search for the question of how did the universe came into being ...

Today the one overriding need is unity and harmony among the beloved of the Lord, for they should have among them but one heart and soul and should, so far as in them lieth, unitedly withstand the hostility of all the peoples of the world ... (Baha'i Writings)
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 07, 2012 - 11:41AM #7
Seefan
Posts: 3,969

Jul 7, 2012 -- 11:12AM, 57 wrote:

 

Jul 7, 2012 -- 11:01AM, Utilyan wrote:


Why would God create a universe?   (trap is set) 



Why not? 



Good come back!  It seems those who doubt always try to reverse the burden of proof.  I believe that it is the nature of God as Creator to create therefore He created the universe!  Here's what my Faith say about it if I may ...


"Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty."


And ...


"O SON OF BOUNTY!  Out of the wastes of nothingness, with the clay of My command I made thee to appear, and have ordained for thy training every atom in existence and the essence of all created things....  Out of My loving-kindness, 'neath the shade of My mercy I nurtured thee, and guarded thee by the essence of My grace and favor. And My purpose in all this was that thou mightest attain My everlasting dominion and become worthy of My invisible bestowals. And yet heedless thou didst remain, and when fully grown, thou didst neglect all My bounties and occupied thyself with thine idle imaginings, in such wise that thou didst become wholly forgetful, and, turning away from the portals of the Friend didst abide within the courts of My enemy."  (Baha'u'llah, Hidden Words)


Today the one overriding need is unity and harmony among the beloved of the Lord, for they should have among them but one heart and soul and should, so far as in them lieth, unitedly withstand the hostility of all the peoples of the world ... (Baha'i Writings)
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 07, 2012 - 11:44AM #8
amcolph
Posts: 17,692

Jul 7, 2012 -- 10:52AM, 57 wrote:



4) Because we, stuff, the universe is here...there has to be a God. There are 3 possibilities.  Two which can be ruled out.



a) The universe self created...which is ruled out because you can't be and not be at the same time.



It may be possible to rule it out, but not by logic.  Logical conclusions can be taken as valid only if they can be empirically verified.




b) The universe always existed....in this case the Atheist must then admit something existing from eternity past is possible, but run into problems when change (big bang) was required.  Something had to cause the change.  That would be God.



The suggestion that the universe in some form has always exised does not rule out the possibility that change has always been present in it.  Your idea that "Big Bang" cosmolgy requires that the singularity from which the present universe arose existed unchanged from eternity past is bogus and not any part of the theory.


In any case, the notion that God created the present universe from eternally co-existent matter (creation ex materia) is a perfectly respectable theological proposition and still believed by some Christians to this day



c) God created the universe.  The only available option left.

 



Your options are not logically independent.  Your reasoning fails.


Really, 57, dragging this kind of nonsense into the light for atheists to scoff at only embarasses the rest of us.

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 07, 2012 - 11:49AM #9
57
Posts: 23,432

Jul 7, 2012 -- 11:41AM, Seefan wrote:


Jul 7, 2012 -- 11:12AM, 57 wrote:

 

Jul 7, 2012 -- 11:01AM, Utilyan wrote:


Why would God create a universe?   (trap is set) 



Why not? 



Good come back!  It seems those who doubt always try to reverse the burden of proof.  I believe that it is the nature of God as Creator to create therefore He created the universe!  Here's what my Faith say about it if I may ...


"Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty."


And ...


"O SON OF BOUNTY!  Out of the wastes of nothingness, with the clay of My command I made thee to appear, and have ordained for thy training every atom in existence and the essence of all created things....  Out of My loving-kindness, 'neath the shade of My mercy I nurtured thee, and guarded thee by the essence of My grace and favor. And My purpose in all this was that thou mightest attain My everlasting dominion and become worthy of My invisible bestowals. And yet heedless thou didst remain, and when fully grown, thou didst neglect all My bounties and occupied thyself with thine idle imaginings, in such wise that thou didst become wholly forgetful, and, turning away from the portals of the Friend didst abide within the courts of My enemy."  (Baha'u'llah, Hidden Words)





I presented 4 points representing 4 different kinds of views.....I saw his post as handwaving. 

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 07, 2012 - 11:59AM #10
57
Posts: 23,432

Jul 7, 2012 -- 11:44AM, amcolph wrote:


Jul 7, 2012 -- 10:52AM, 57 wrote:



4) Because we, stuff, the universe is here...there has to be a God. There are 3 possibilities.  Two which can be ruled out.



a) The universe self created...which is ruled out because you can't be and not be at the same time.



It may be possible to rule it out, but not by logic.  Logical conclusions can be taken as valid only if they can be empirically verified.


Amcolph, it has been logically verified.  You can't become something from nothing.  You can't be and not be at the same time.  Unless you can present a line of logic to suggest otherwise....you must change your conclusion.




b) The universe always existed....in this case the Atheist must then admit something existing from eternity past is possible, but run into problems when change (big bang) was required.  Something had to cause the change.  That would be God.



The suggestion that the universe in some form has always exised does not rule out the possibility that change has always been present in it.  Your idea that "Big Bang" cosmolgy requires that the singularity from which the present universe arose existed unchanged from eternity past is bogus and not any part of the theory.


Reading your post I see you really don't understand BB "theory".  But, I'm not here to address that issue. 


If the change has always existed...then why did it do this change thing you mentioned, whatever it is... for eternity past, then really change 17BY's ago (using old age times)?  What caused that? 


In any case, the notion that God created the present universe from eternally co-existent matter (creation ex materia) is a perfectly respectable theological proposition and still believed by some Christians to this day


Where is the biblical support for that concept you claim Christians to this day believe in?




c) God created the universe.  The only available option left.

 



Your options are not logically independent.  Your reasoning fails.


They failed?  yeah, right. (stop waving your hands)


Really, 57, dragging this kind of nonsense into the light for atheists to scoff at only embarasses the rest of us.


How do they scoff it?   More handwaving amcoph?




 

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