Jun 4, 2013 -- 6:44PM, dio wrote:

Really Bob a pile of manure is always a pile of manure whether a Buddhist of a Christian steps in it.

A pile of manure is a pile of manure, and if you step in it, you may not be being mindful.

A pile of manure is a fieldful of fertilizer.

A pile of manure is a diagnostic tool.

A pile of manure is a way to identify animals.

A pile of manure is fuel waiting to be dried.

A pile of manure is a bounty of food for countless insects.

A pile of manure is something beyond the stink, beyond just a dislike of stepping in it.

"Vice", like manure, is not so straightforward as it appears.

Hi cadae,

Jun 5, 2013 -- 9:30AM, cadae wrote:

This morality/attachment issue is an interesting dichotomy. The Christians seem to try to improve themselves and their world by addressing moral issues, while the Buddhists try to do the same by addressing attachment issues. This is fascinating. The Buddhists, by taking a step back in the causal path, free themselves from all of the problems of dealing with very difficult moral issues. They can approach the challenges of self improvement without the distractions of varying value systems obscuring their goals.

I have come to a different assessment of Christian and Buddhist methodology, actually. Christians can and do "good works." And I believe the better ones have a genuine humanitarian interest in the world, or at least a humble and helpful one. But theologically, this moral behavior is motivated by a desire to please God, rather than for the sake of being a moral person. Obedience to God is paramount in Christian theology, to my understanding. There is a lack of theological interest in questioning, observing the mind deeply, etc.

With respect to Buddhism, while there are some avenues for serious withdrawal from the world, this is not the case fo the vast majority; the plethora of Buddhist sects makes it very hard to generalize. But moral behavior has in fact historically been a key focus in the religion as a whole. Taking the 5, 8, or 10 Precepts, for instance, is a prime example of this. Compassion and wisdom are two chief examples of Buddhist virtues, as well as equanimity. The Boddhisattva ideal speaks volumes about the ultimate in humanitarianism, with a Buddhist twist. And within Buddhist doctrine, I'd say there is deep concern over the internal causes of suffering, as well as outward behaviors, though by tending to the internal the two nonetheless go hand in hand: as you think, so you become.

Historically, the Mahayana traditions have particularly emphasized a spirit of being "in the world, but not of it," as the saying goes. This does not imply avoidance of moral issues, it instead guides us to simultaneously remain both detached and fully engaged in the world.