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Switch to Forum Live View JW can the real God FOR whom all things were made stand up please
2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 9:26AM #1
Johan Henze
Posts: 1,613

When reading the book of Isaiah it is clear that teaches God made all things BY Himself and FOR Himself Isaih 44: 24 Proverbs 16: 4 ! Your leaders teach that Jesus is Michael who is a created God! Yet from the very context you have folks believe Jesus is a created being it says ...all things were made through Him and FOR Him!


Was all things made FOR God or made FOR a created god?    


The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or any set of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men.No man,s opinion is expressed in the Watchtower WT 01/11 1931.P 327 If you believe that you will believe anything!
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 10:18AM #2
ATALAYA
Posts: 333

Jun 28, 2012 -- 9:26AM, Johan Henze wrote:


When reading the book of Isaiah it is clear that teaches God made all things BY Himself and FOR Himself Isaih 44: 24 Proverbs 16: 4 ! Your leaders teach that Jesus is Michael who is a created God! Yet from the very context you have folks believe Jesus is a created being it says ...all things were made through Him and FOR Him!


Was all things made FOR God or made FOR a created god?    






Hello. It seems that your pastor is confusing you as he himself is confuse. Let me help you.

Is Jesus God?
www.watchtower.org/e/20090401a/article_0...


Is Jesus God Almighty?

www.watchtower.org/e/20050915/diagram_01...
Jehovah God is the Creator. (Revelation 4:11) He is without beginning or end, and he is almighty. (Psalm 90:2) Jesus, on the other hand, had a beginning. (Colossians 1:15, 16) Referring to God as his Father, Jesus said: “The Father is greater than I am.” (John 14:28) Jesus also explained that there were some things neither he nor the angels knew but that were known only by his Father.—Mark 13:32.

(Isaiah 21:8) . . .Upon the watchtower, O Jehovah, I am standing constantly by day, and at my guardpost I am stationed all the nights.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 11:10AM #3
Johan Henze
Posts: 1,613

Jun 28, 2012 -- 10:18AM, ATALAYA wrote:


Jun 28, 2012 -- 9:26AM, Johan Henze wrote:


When reading the book of Isaiah it is clear that teaches God made all things BY Himself and FOR Himself Isaih 44: 24 Proverbs 16: 4 ! Your leaders teach that Jesus is Michael who is a created God! Yet from the very context you have folks believe Jesus is a created being it says ...all things were made through Him and FOR Him!


Was all things made FOR God or made FOR a created god?    






Hello. It seems that your pastor is confusing you as he himself is confuse. Let me help you.

Is Jesus God?
www.watchtower.org/e/20090401a/article_0...


Is Jesus God Almighty?

www.watchtower.org/e/20050915/diagram_01...
Jehovah God is the Creator. (Revelation 4:11) He is without beginning or end, and he is almighty. (Psalm 90:2) Jesus, on the other hand, had a beginning. (Colossians 1:15, 16) Referring to God as his Father, Jesus said: “The Father is greater than I am.” (John 14:28) Jesus also explained that there were some things neither he nor the angels knew but that were known only by his Father.—Mark 13:32.





Atallay was all things made FOR God Himself  Prov 16: 4


or


Was all things  made FOR a created god Col 1: 16 


So will the real God FOR whom all things are made please stand up?     


 


 

The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or any set of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men.No man,s opinion is expressed in the Watchtower WT 01/11 1931.P 327 If you believe that you will believe anything!
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 2:32PM #4
ATALAYA
Posts: 333

Read the links I posted. The Bible is clear and do not support a false dogma of a 3 head God.

(Isaiah 21:8) . . .Upon the watchtower, O Jehovah, I am standing constantly by day, and at my guardpost I am stationed all the nights.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 4:09PM #5
Newtonian
Posts: 12,196

Jun 28, 2012 -- 11:10AM, Johan Henze wrote:


Jun 28, 2012 -- 10:18AM, ATALAYA wrote:


Jun 28, 2012 -- 9:26AM, Johan Henze wrote:


When reading the book of Isaiah it is clear that teaches God made all things BY Himself and FOR Himself Isaih 44: 24 Proverbs 16: 4 ! Your leaders teach that Jesus is Michael who is a created God! Yet from the very context you have folks believe Jesus is a created being it says ...all things were made through Him and FOR Him!


Was all things made FOR God or made FOR a created god?    






Hello. It seems that your pastor is confusing you as he himself is confuse. Let me help you.

Is Jesus God?
www.watchtower.org/e/20090401a/article_0...


Is Jesus God Almighty?

www.watchtower.org/e/20050915/diagram_01...
Jehovah God is the Creator. (Revelation 4:11) He is without beginning or end, and he is almighty. (Psalm 90:2) Jesus, on the other hand, had a beginning. (Colossians 1:15, 16) Referring to God as his Father, Jesus said: “The Father is greater than I am.” (John 14:28) Jesus also explained that there were some things neither he nor the angels knew but that were known only by his Father.—Mark 13:32.





Atallay was all things made FOR God Himself  Prov 16: 4


or


Was all things  made FOR a created god Col 1: 16 


So will the real God FOR whom all things are made please stand up?     


 


 




 


Atalaya gave you good links.   Also your asking Jesus to please stand up - do you even know what you are saying?   I think you missed what happens when Michael stands up - see Daniel 12.   And who are you, anyway, to ask Jesus to stand up - you really think you have some authority to invite Jesus to stop sitting at the right hand of God and to stand up?


(Psalm 110:1) . . .The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”


(Mark 12:35-37) . . .However, when making a reply, Jesus began to say as he taught in the temple: “How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is David’s son? 36 By the holy spirit David himself said, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet.”’ 37 David himself calls him ‘Lord,’ but how does it come that he is his son?”. . .


(Acts 2:32-36) . . .This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear. 34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’ 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom YOU impaled.. . .


I suggest you learn what Paul meant when saying Jesus was the Son of God's love in Colossians 1:13 - the context of one of your citations.   And read Proverbs 8:22-31 as to the love Jehovah has for Jesus, and the love Jesus has for mankind.   Compare John 3:16. 


I hope that you will come to appreciate the love between Jehovah and Jesus, the love Jehovah had for Jesus before the founding of the world - as Jesus prayed to Jehovah:


(John 17:22-26) . . .Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, that the world may have the knowledge that you sent me forth and that you loved them just as you loved me. 24 Father, as to what you have given me, I wish that, where I am, they also may be with me, in order to behold my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world. 25 Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you; but I have come to know you, and these have come to know that you sent me forth. 26 And I have made your name known to them and will make it known, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.. . .


Btw - you also do not understand the Scriptures which you are interpreting in contradiction to the above Scriptures.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 4:58PM #6
Newtonian
Posts: 12,196

Jun 28, 2012 -- 10:18AM, ATALAYA wrote:


Jun 28, 2012 -- 9:26AM, Johan Henze wrote:


When reading the book of Isaiah it is clear that teaches God made all things BY Himself and FOR Himself Isaih 44: 24 Proverbs 16: 4 ! Your leaders teach that Jesus is Michael who is a created God! Yet from the very context you have folks believe Jesus is a created being it says ...all things were made through Him and FOR Him!


Was all things made FOR God or made FOR a created god?    






Hello. It seems that your pastor is confusing you as he himself is confuse. Let me help you.

Is Jesus God?
www.watchtower.org/e/20090401a/article_0...


Is Jesus God Almighty?

www.watchtower.org/e/20050915/diagram_01...
Jehovah God is the Creator. (Revelation 4:11) He is without beginning or end, and he is almighty. (Psalm 90:2) Jesus, on the other hand, had a beginning. (Colossians 1:15, 16) Referring to God as his Father, Jesus said: “The Father is greater than I am.” (John 14:28) Jesus also explained that there were some things neither he nor the angels knew but that were known only by his Father.—Mark 13:32.




Atalaya - Hi!   Thank you for your loyal posts - and excellent Scriptural points.   Thank you also for the links!


Jehovah asks in Isaiah 44:24 - Who was with me?   The verse can be interpreted as Johan has done, as if he was literally alone - however, clearly other Scriptures including the context shows differently.


Of course, those who believe in the trinity know who was with Jehovah as they are familiar with John 1:1.   They may not be so familiar with a similar question asked in Proverbs, to wit:


(Proverbs 30:4) . . .Who has ascended to heaven that he may descend? Who has gathered the wind in the hollow of both hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in a mantle? Who has made all the ends of the earth to rise? What is his name and what the name of his son, in case you know?


Those reading this back then likely did not know the name of his son - unless they discerned Proverbs 8 and Daniel 12 - the former they would have been more likely to understand than the latter.


Understanding what is meant by Jehovah being alone in Isaiah 44:24 is answered in part by another Scripture misunderstood by most trinitarians, namely:


(Isaiah 43:11) I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”


Some trinitarians then argue that since Jesus is our Savior, and there in no savior besides Jehovah, then Jesus must be Jehovah!   However, this interpretation contradicts other verses just as interpreting Isaiah 44:24 as Jehovah literally being alone contradicts many verses, some of which I quoted in my above post.


One could, of course, argue that Isaiah 43:11 proves Othniel was Jehovah with the same reasoning!   Of course, that is wrong - but note:


(Judges 3:9, 10) . . .And the sons of Israel began to call to Jehovah for aid. Then Jehovah raised a savior up for the sons of Israel that he might save them, Oth′ni·el the son of Ke′naz, the younger brother of Ca′leb. 10 The spirit of Jehovah now came upon him, and he became the judge of Israel. . .


Many translations read savior here, but KJV reads "deliverer" - however the Hebrew word is the same in Judges 3:9 and Isaiah 43:11 - Strong's # H3467 - yasha


Just as many other verses show Jehovah was not literally alone in creation, so likewise many Scriptures show Jehovah raised up many saviors - but none of them could save besides/without Jehovah.   Jehovah is the ultimate source of life and of salvation - others save but they cannot save without or besides Jehovah!    Just reading Isaiah 43:11, like just reading Isaiah 44:24 - one can conclude as many trinitarians do.   Of course, we are to read all the Scriptures on any given subject and thus let the Bible interpret itself!


I like to use Judges 3:9 and simply ask trinitarians if they believe Othniel was Jehovah.   However, other Scriptures also clearly show Jehovah raised up many saviors and that therefore there being no savior besides Jehovah must mean that no one saves without Jehovah being the ultimate source, ALONE, of salvation - but that others are indeed saviors.


Here are a few other Scriptures confirming this:


(Nehemiah 9:27) . . .in the time of their distress they would cry out to you, and you yourself would hear from the very heavens; and in accord with your abundant mercy you would give them saviors who would save them out of the hand of their adversaries.


(KJV+)  Therefore thou deliveredstH5414 them into the handH3027 of their enemies,H6862 who vexedH6887 them: and in the timeH6256 of their trouble,H6869 when they criedH6817 untoH413 thee, thouH859 heardestH8085 them from heaven;H4480 H8064 and according to thy manifoldH7227 merciesH7356 thou gavestH5414 them saviours,H3467 who savedH3467 them out of the handH4480 H3027 of their enemies.H6862 - Nehemiah 9:27


I like to use this verse because KJV reads "saviours" while in other occurences of Hebrew yasha (H3467) KJV reads "deliverer(s)."


(Obadiah 21) . . .“And saviors will certainly come up onto Mount Zion, in order to judge the mountainous region of E′sau; and the kingship must become Jehovah’s.”  (KJV also reads "saviors" here)


(Judges 3:15) . . .So Jehovah raised up for them a savior, E′hud . . .


(2 Kings 13:5) . . .Consequently Jehovah gave Israel a savior, . . .


(Isaiah 19:20) . . .; for they will cry out to Jehovah because of the oppressors, and he will send them a savior, even a grand one, who will actually deliver them.


Who is the savior Jehovah sends this time, a truly grand savior sent by Jehovah?  (Cp. John 3:16)


 




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2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 5:10PM #7
ATALAYA
Posts: 333

Hello brother . Your posts are great. We are giving them a wonderful testimony.

Jesus—Who Was He?

www.watchtower.org/e/200612/article_01.h...

(Isaiah 21:8) . . .Upon the watchtower, O Jehovah, I am standing constantly by day, and at my guardpost I am stationed all the nights.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 5:51PM #8
cherubino
Posts: 7,277

Jun 28, 2012 -- 5:10PM, ATALAYA wrote:


Hello brother . Your posts are great. We are giving them a wonderful testimony.

Jesus—Who Was He?

www.watchtower.org/e/200612/article_01.h...




Quite possibly He was the most flexible and adaptable literary device who never really lived at all.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 7:10PM #9
DNT
Posts: 1,514

Jun 28, 2012 -- 10:18AM, ATALAYA wrote:

Jun 28, 2012 -- 9:26AM, Johan Henze wrote:


When reading the book of Isaiah it is clear that teaches God made all things BY Himself and FOR Himself Isaih 44: 24 Proverbs 16: 4 ! Your leaders teach that Jesus is Michael who is a created God! Yet from the very context you have folks believe Jesus is a created being it says ...all things were made through Him and FOR Him!


Was all things made FOR God or made FOR a created god?    






Hello. It seems that your pastor is confusing you as he himself is confuse. Let me help you.

Is Jesus God?
www.watchtower.org/e/20090401a/article_0...


Is Jesus God Almighty?

www.watchtower.org/e/20050915/diagram_01...
Jehovah God is the Creator. (Revelation 4:11) He is without beginning or end, and he is almighty. (Psalm 90:2) Jesus, on the other hand, had a beginning. (Colossians 1:15, 16) Referring to God as his Father, Jesus said: “The Father is greater than I am.” (John 14:28) Jesus also explained that there were some things neither he nor the angels knew but that were known only by his Father.—Mark 13:32.


Hey ATALAYA


Well these links are nothing but lies, it is in fact the WTS that has not only twisted scripture, but they have added and taken away from scripture to try and disprove the tri-uion Godhead that is clearly and unequivocally in the the Bible in fact you can see the Tri-uion Godhead in the very first chapter of the Bible. The WTS have come up with a very cleverly rehurst argument and falsely claim that the nasty trinitarians have added this and that.


OK your point about colossians 1:15-16 has been shown many times on this forum to have been taken out of context not only that the WTS has dishonestly add the word "other" which by the way is strictly forbidden by God him self, to desperately make it so that Jesus is not God, which the Bible unequivocally shows he is.


Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:


Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


As you can see in colossians 1:16 it clearly says he created all things, so by the WTS tortured logic he would have had to have created him self, this is why they dishonestly added "other" to get themselves out of this sticky situation.


 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.


As you can see the clear interpolation to make the WTS man made doctrine fit Gods word.


The true interpretation of verse 15 "first born" is a term of rank, it does not mean he was literally Gods first born, when you look at these verses you can clearly see that depending on the context "first born" is a term of rank,


Exo 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn



Jer 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn


Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have preeminence


As you can see Exo 4:22 says Israel is my first born, well obviously Israel was not the first nation on earth, the reason God said it is his first born was because it is clearly a term of rank, also Col 1:18,OK clearly the term "first born" here is a term of rank because it is obvious that there can never be a physical birth from death.


The WTS has conditioned there followers to use semantic argument, they add and take away from Gods word, and they are just being a mouth peace for the Devil.


God Bless You


Denis.






  

1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 7:35PM #10
Newtonian
Posts: 12,196

Denis - First, please try harder to sanctify Christ as Lord in your heart:


(1 Peter 3:15) But sanctify the Christ as Lord in YOUR hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone that demands of YOU a reason for the hope in YOU, but doing so together with a mild temper and deep respect.


Please respond to my posts 5 & 6.   Thank you in advance.


Meanwhile, I will respond to your above post in my next post.

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