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Switch to Forum Live View JW can the real God FOR whom all things were made stand up please
2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 7:44PM #11
cherubino
Posts: 7,277

Do you guys have any idea of what sort of an impression these sanctimony poker games make on an unbeliever? I'll say this much for the Catholics: they only have one Pope at a time and everybody else has to wait their turn as long as he's alive. Nota bene.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 7:44PM #12
Newtonian
Posts: 11,972

Jun 28, 2012 -- 7:10PM, DNT wrote:

Jun 28, 2012 -- 10:18AM, ATALAYA wrote:


Jun 28, 2012 -- 9:26AM, Johan Henze wrote:


When reading the book of Isaiah it is clear that teaches God made all things BY Himself and FOR Himself Isaih 44: 24 Proverbs 16: 4 ! Your leaders teach that Jesus is Michael who is a created God! Yet from the very context you have folks believe Jesus is a created being it says ...all things were made through Him and FOR Him!


Was all things made FOR God or made FOR a created god?    






Hello. It seems that your pastor is confusing you as he himself is confuse. Let me help you.

Is Jesus God?
www.watchtower.org/e/20090401a/article_0...


Is Jesus God Almighty?

www.watchtower.org/e/20050915/diagram_01...
Jehovah God is the Creator. (Revelation 4:11) He is without beginning or end, and he is almighty. (Psalm 90:2) Jesus, on the other hand, had a beginning. (Colossians 1:15, 16) Referring to God as his Father, Jesus said: “The Father is greater than I am.” (John 14:28) Jesus also explained that there were some things neither he nor the angels knew but that were known only by his Father.—Mark 13:32.




Hey ATALAYA


Well these links are nothing but lies, it is in fact the WTS that has not only twisted scripture, but they have added and taken away from scripture ....




Denis - See why I asked you to try to sanctify Christ as Lord in your heart (1 Peter 3:15)?


You are not going to get anywhere telling anyone that all they have published in links is nothing but lies.   There might be some source that is nothing but lies, but I doubt it - and you certainly have not proven any such thing.    


You claim we have twisted Scripture  - we have not.


You claim we have added to Scripture - we have not.


You claim we have taken away from Scripture - we have not.


Nor did you specify which point from which link you disagree with.


Again, I ask you to respond to my posts 5 & 6.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 7:58PM #13
Newtonian
Posts: 11,972


Denis - Now to respond to one of your contentions - but I will respond in a friendly manner (1 Peter 3:15).


Your argument that we have added [other] in Colossians 1 is way off - and really rather humorous if you think about it!Laughing


I have a sense of humor, btw.Smile


So, in Colossians 1:17, if you think [other] is wrong, as you are insisting - do you then believe that Jesus is before all - that is- before Jehovah and Jesus? Surprised


We believe Jesus is before all [other], besides Jehovah and Jesus.   That is the simple reason why [other] is added - not the reasons you are inventing.


But thank you for appealing to my sense of humor!



Do you believe Jesus is before Jehovah and Jesus?



See what I mean by humorous?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 10:20PM #14
Ed_3
Posts: 500

Jun 28, 2012 -- 2:32PM, ATALAYA wrote:


Read the links I posted. The Bible is clear and do not support a false dogma of a 3 head God.



I read the links that you posted and neither one of them answers that question as to whether creation was created for Jehovah the Father...or for Jesus the created Son.(See Colossians 1:16 and Romans 11:36)

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 11:56PM #15
woodzz
Posts: 2,065

Jun 28, 2012 -- 2:32PM, ATALAYA wrote:


Read the links I posted. The Bible is clear and do not support a false dogma of a 3 head God.





Not "3 head God."


Three persons who are the one God. 


Woodzz


 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2012 - 12:00AM #16
woodzz
Posts: 2,065

Jun 28, 2012 -- 7:10PM, DNT wrote:

Hey ATALAYA


Well these links are nothing but lies, it is in fact the WTS that has not only twisted scripture, but they have added and taken away from scripture to try and disprove the tri-uion Godhead that is clearly and unequivocally in the the Bible in fact you can see the Tri-uion Godhead in the very first chapter of the Bible. The WTS have come up with a very cleverly rehurst argument and falsely claim that the nasty trinitarians have added this and that.


OK your point about colossians 1:15-16 has been shown many times on this forum to have been taken out of context not only that the WTS has dishonestly add the word "other" which by the way is strictly forbidden by God him self, to desperately make it so that Jesus is not God, which the Bible unequivocally shows he is.


Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:


Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


As you can see in colossians 1:16 it clearly says he created all things, so by the WTS tortured logic he would have had to have created him self, this is why they dishonestly added "other" to get themselves out of this sticky situation.


 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.


As you can see the clear interpolation to make the WTS man made doctrine fit Gods word.


The true interpretation of verse 15 "first born" is a term of rank, it does not mean he was literally Gods first born, when you look at these verses you can clearly see that depending on the context "first born" is a term of rank,


Exo 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn



Jer 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn


Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have preeminence


As you can see Exo 4:22 says Israel is my first born, well obviously Israel was not the first nation on earth, the reason God said it is his first born was because it is clearly a term of rank, also Col 1:18,OK clearly the term "first born" here is a term of rank because it is obvious that there can never be a physical birth from death.


The WTS has conditioned there followers to use semantic argument, they add and take away from Gods word, and they are just being a mouth peace for the Devil.


God Bless You


Denis.





Hi Denis,


I just noticed something in their literature.  When they quote Colossians 1:17, they leave out the brackets that show the word was not in the Greek text, but was added to their NWT Bible.


Here's an example from a 2006 WT.


Jesus worked so closely with Jehovah that God’s Word says: “He is before all other things and by means of him all other things were made to exist.”—Colossians 1:17


Woodzz

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2012 - 12:16AM #17
woodzz
Posts: 2,065

Jun 28, 2012 -- 10:18AM, ATALAYA wrote:


Is Jesus God?
www.watchtower.org/e/20090401a/article_0...



Ah, a link to the Trinity brochure with its infamous quotes, such as this one from the Illustrated Bible Dictionary which they quote part of a sentence in order to give the impression it teaches against the Trinity teaching:


The Illustrated Bible Dictionary gives one reason. Speaking of the Trinity, this publication admits: “It is not a biblical doctrine in the sense that any formulation of it can be found in the Bible.”


But look at the parts they left out:


"The word Trinity is not found in the Bible, and though used by Tertullian in the last decade of the 2nd century, it did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century. …Though it is not a biblical doctrine in the sense that any formulation of it can be found in the Bible, it can be seen to underlie the revelation of God, implicit in the OT and explicit in the NT."


The Illustrated Bible Dictionary, part 3, p. 1597


Woodzz

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2012 - 12:35AM #18
woodzz
Posts: 2,065

Jun 28, 2012 -- 10:18AM, ATALAYA wrote:


Is Jesus God Almighty?

www.watchtower.org/e/20050915/diagram_01...




At this link they say that because there was something Jesus didn't know then he couldn't be God.  However, JWs teach that there was something the Father didn't know: that Adam and Eve would sin.


Woodzz


 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2012 - 8:03AM #19
ATALAYA
Posts: 333

Jun 28, 2012 -- 11:56PM, woodzz wrote:


Jun 28, 2012 -- 2:32PM, ATALAYA wrote:


Read the links I posted. The Bible is clear and do not support a false dogma of a 3 head God.





Not "3 head God."


Three persons who are the one God. 


Woodzz


 





Same 3 persons each god but one God. A 3 head God. The Bible do not support such horrible dogma.

(Isaiah 21:8) . . .Upon the watchtower, O Jehovah, I am standing constantly by day, and at my guardpost I am stationed all the nights.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2012 - 8:26AM #20
cherubino
Posts: 7,277

Jun 29, 2012 -- 8:03AM, ATALAYA wrote:


Same 3 persons each god but one God. A 3 head God. The Bible do not support such horrible dogma.




Here we go again, with literalists clobbering each other in-- and I can't emphasize this strongly enough-- broken English.


Can I ask if you know what the expression "sense of the absurd" means? Do you see why outsiders see this simplistic theology as reflecting some sort of cognitive deficit?

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