Jul 3, 2012 -- 9:46PM, Oeste wrote:

Jul 3, 2012 -- 4:34PM, mrjordan wrote:

Revelation 20:7-8

Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, 8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Ma′gog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea

It says here that Satan will mislead people to gather them together for the war. These that follow will separate themselves from Jehovah's true worshipers. Thus those that follow Satan obviously will not be followers of Jehovah. Also, it appears that many think this will be a war like we know war today. With guns, tanks, etc. By the end of the 1000 years I doubt any of these things will be around. This will be a war of worship. Satan, like he doing today, will try to mislead as many people as possible away from Jehovah by worshiping something else.

Now you've totally confused me.

There were no guns, tanks or nukes when Adam and Eve came out of Eden were there? Did that prevent mankind from having wars?

Also, I'm curious as to what you mean by a "war of worship".

Will Ba'al escape and fight Jesus (a proxy war...one god fighting another) while the rest of us watch,  or is it mankind doing the actual fighting?

Curious. have you read this entire thread? Did you read all of the post between Woodzz and myself? So far, Woodzz appears to be on the right track in her questioning.

The questions presented here seem to be, sorry for saying so, lacking some scriptural foundation. I have no clue where to begin.

Jul 3, 2012 -- 8:23PM, mrjordan wrote:

Jul 3, 2012 -- 6:45PM, woodzz wrote:

Well, it doesn't make sense that Jehovah would bring to ruin those ruining the earth that he would leave us the personal and means to build guns, missiles, nukes etc. Remember Isaiah 2:2-4? I don't think anyone would be able to use any of the current machinery in use today. Have you ever seen a tank or fighter jet that has been unused for 100 years? Imagine 1000! That would mean, during that 1000 years people would have to continue to make or upkeep these weapons. That does not make sense either considering that most of the people left on earth will be good people.

Now perhaps towards the end of Satan's short time, and Satan has gathered enough people to follow him, Satan could threaten those still faithful to Jehovah with harm. Rev 20:9 "And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them"

Now, I don't know if that means that Satan gathers so many that he would direct those following him to do actual harm to those still faithful to Jehovah. But as we just read, it would not be much of a war if that what that scripture means. Jehovah, reading that last sentence, it seems would step in before any harm would come to his faithful followers.

Interesting view of things, Mr J.  Thanks for your response.

I don't remember mentioning any weapons, just what the scripture there says, that they are gathered together for war and they head out, advancing across the land to make war on others.

Didn't you mean to say ALL of the people left on earth at that time are good people, are in fact perfect people? 

Yet they still are persuaded to go to war, JW against JW. 

So, are you presenting those views to establish that it isn't war if there aren't WMD's and they are destroyed before they can do any damage?  Is this the military force spoken of in Ezekiel 38:15?

Holly

I see here that you don't think there will be any weapons in this 'war'. May I ask what you think will be used? Forgive me, I want to make sure I understand your idea of war at the end of the 1000 reign before I proceed.

As far as 'good' people, one of the things Witnesses often wonder about are those that are going to be resurrected. The bible says the unrighteous will be resurrected. But we also understand that there are some that will not be resurrected. (Since I know you have the CD, I suggest to look up gehenna.) Now, Jehovah makes the final decision on those who are resurrected, correct? So who are actually resurrected we do not know. We must have faith that Jehovah is going resurrect the right people. Will Hitler be resurrected? I don't know! Do you think Jehovah would allow such a person back onto the earth? My feeling says no. But I'm not the judge here. We have a much better judge in Jehovah. My faith is with Him, that he would not let terrible people back onto this earth.

Ezekiel 38:15 talks about the literal Gog on which Revelation is based upon.  Take look at this link and see if you agree.

wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001734?q...

Hi MrJ,

I don't think I've said anything about weapons one way or the other.  The scripture says they are gathered together for war and they advance out accordingly.  Gog is referred to elsewhere as heading up a military force.  I wondered if you thought there was a connection since military would imply arms of some sort.  Does it matter what the details of the war are?  It's still called a war and perfect people who have served Jehovah as his Witnesses for a thousand years are persuaded to gather for war against their fellow paradise dwellers.  That's really what this part of the thread is about.

Now, if you're trying to say it doesn't have the characteristics of a war so it isn't really a war, or if you're trying to say they aren't really faithful JWs, what scriptures do you base that on?

Hitler....well, are you saying he will be resurrected and punished for his sins?  Or that he probably won't appreciate the environment he finds himself in and doesn't respond to what's happening on the earth.  Would he, in your opinion, even make it to the end of the 1000 years, or would he be annihilated before then for not responding appreciatively to peace and quiet?  Because if he makes it to the end, he will have attained perfection, right?  Is that what you believe?

So, as to who is resurrected and who isn't, it doesn't really matter, does it?  Haven't they all reached perfection by the end of the thousand years?

Thank you for the link.  It doesn't appear to settle anything about weapons.  How important are they to you?  I don't agree that the expression "like the sands of the sea" means an indefinite number.  All the other times it is used in scripture is to describe a number so extensive, so large, that it can't be counted, not by us humans anyway.  

Holly

Jul 3, 2012 -- 11:39PM, woodzz wrote:

That's a good point, Oeste, about Adam and Eve.  I hadn't thought of that, except I did consider Cain using something to kill Abel, though I don't suppose that would be called a war.

I also was curious about the war of worship, which may be making the war Gog gathers them together for more of a figurative type thing.  But it doesn't really matter.  If I understand this teaching correctly, the earth is entirely populated at that point by perfect people, all true worshippers of Jehovah, living in peaceful paradise for 1,000 years, when an enormous amount of them, too many to be counted, begin to war against the others. 

That, I believe, answers Johan's question in the OP pretty solidly.

Hi Holly!

I agree with you that the OP has been answered...totally.

I think the realization by MrJ that only "Jehovah Witnesses" will be left at the end of the 1000 years has led him to some strange conclusions about what constitutes a "war", and if this is a Watchtower teaching then it's one, that at least to my mind, hasn't been very well thought out. But that's what generally happens when I try to think through some of these WT doctrines to a logical conclusion.

Once again, good work!

I agree with Marken that we aren't told the details of that war.  Nor do we need to speculate about it.  The Bible says it's war, it says they're gathered to go to war and they advance across the land to do battle and are stopped in their tracks by fire from heaven.

So maybe a thousand years of peace-filled study with JWs isn't going to make earth such a paradise after all since a huge number of them are going to go to war against their fellow JWs.  Think how it would be even more so now -- which is what Johan asked.

Marken, you had said in one of your posts something about people harboring war-like tendencies. Was this in reference to those who survive to the end of the 1000 years?  I ask because wouldn't attaining perfection mean they don't have those war-like tendencies any more?

Johan, that was a good question.  It's given us all a lot to ponder and an interesting scripture to share with JWs when we witness to them.

Holly 

What I don't understand is Jehovah knows the influence of the the wicked one on both perfect and imperfect people why would he unleash this again?  Has not the wicked one up to that point done enough to merit the same punishment humans perfecft and impefect have for 'rebellion'?

And when your talking about God's time perception ' a little while' could mean the same amount of time that its taken for things to get where they are now!    I mean how long would it take for a large number of  "Jehovah's people" to side with the wicked one and go to war??  I wonder if the following attitudes and character will persist up to that point:

www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/scan...