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Switch to Forum Live View The Testimony of Tom Cantor
2 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2012 - 6:17AM #11
river8101
Posts: 5,544

In the end the DVD called “Testimony of Tom Cantor” was nothing more than  a sneaky way not to discuss Judaism as inferred on the title of the tape, but to proselytize their so called “Message of Hope and Gladness” thru Jesus Christ and their Christian beliefs. Don't know how anyone can stoop so low.  What a sneaky way to proselytize. 


I remember years ago, I had a Jewish girl friend, who moved into a neighborhood that was completely Christian. She showed and trained German Shepherds, and I had one who really needed training, sweet as he was, he didn't mind. So that's how we met.  We became friends.  At some point she realized they needed more room, and so they moved to a different neighborhood with more land.  At some point she and her husband went through a divorce.  She became friends with her neighbors and they went about trying to convert her to a fundamentalist Christian religion during a time when she was confused and upset and in therapy.  Eventually, they were successful.  She even tried it on me!  She gave me a book by Hal Lindsey, that preacher who was making a mint of money teaching people that the world was coming to an end.  He wrote several evangelical books on the subject, but each of his predictions failed. I read a couple pages, realized it was trash, and put it away. She kept asking me if I was reading it, and I told her, no.  She finally asked for it back, and I was glad to do so.  


Once she invited me and my kids to a magic show being given in her neighborhood.  Not suspecting anything from a magic show, I took them.  The magic show was OK, but after it was over, the so called magician turned out to be a preacher, and began teaching the children the difference between his kind of magic and the miracles of Jesus Christ.  After a few surprising minutes, knowing where he was going, I told my kids we were leaving, and we did, though she tried to stop me. My kids were too young to understand why we left, so I explained that the magic show was over, and he was going to talk about something else.  


Some people will do anything to try and convert you.  We had been good friends a long time, but she betrayed me trying to use my children! They liked the magic show though, so it wasn't a total loss.  People are entitiled to believe what they like, but when I saw her daughter wearing a cross, I felt upset.  She realized that.   Gradually, we stopped seeing each other.   Oh, and btw, this woman went to Bais Yakov, a Jewish school for girls until she was 11 years old.  Then her mother passed away.  Her father who lived with them apparently didn't pursue it.  Her sister lived in NY, and I met her once. She told me she couldn't understand why her sister had become a Christian.

“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2012 - 10:21AM #12
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

"Spiritual genocide?"


Really?


 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2012 - 10:38AM #13
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

The Inquisition was spiritual genocide. The Crusades were spiritual genocide.


Proselytizing (even "deceptive" proselytizing - more on that later) is not spiritual genocide.


If you believe that converting to another religion would "spiritually kill" you, then at most it's attempting to encourage you to commit spiritual suicide.


These people believe that everyone is headed for spiritual death, and that they have the way to save people from it. They can't prove that they're right, but no one else can prove that they're wrong. It's a totally subjective tenet of faith. Why should they not proselytize, then?


As for the "deception," there's deception and there's deception. "Messianic" "synagogues" that claim to be real Jewish synagogues, that's a problem. But stuff like this DVD or the book? Not so much.


First, you didn't pay for them. They sent them to you free. Sending people junk they don't want is annoying but commonplace and nothing can really be done about it.


But these people believe that Jesus is the only way to avoid spiritual death. If they didn't try to save you, they believe they would be guilty of letting you die spiritually when they could have tried to stop it. But as has been demonstrated, a lot of Jews are - justifiably - turned off by Christianity due to the horrors of history. Most Jews would categorically reject out of hand anything openly coming from a Christian without even considering it.


So  they rebrand it, or they try a stealth markering angle to get the ideas across in a way that Jews might not reject out of hand at first glance with the hope that at least one seed or two will get planted.


As for why a Jew would want to become a Christian, maybe it's because s/he found that the Jewish religion didn't do anything for him/her, that the Jewish community did not support him/her, and found instead the spiritual connection and community that s/he wanted in a Christian church. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2012 - 4:42PM #14
LeahOne
Posts: 16,271

I think there's something wrong with any religion which includes in its teachings that 'everyone else is going to Hell' or any such thing.


The 'spiritual genocide' is a Christian-specific problem and activity.  I'm normally opposed to violence of any sort - but in the case of sweet young things peddling GOD's Salvation door-to-door like an overpriced vacuum cleaner, I could make an exception.  At least the idiots on the street corners are not attempting to invade people's homes.


It *IS* an attempt at 'spiritual genocide' - it's an organized well funded effort to *reduce the numbers of Jews-practicing-Judaism*, preferably to ZERO.  It's 'social engineering' at its absolute worst.  It does not matter at all to me what these people believe:  the action of seeking out people to draw them away from their 'cradle' faith is ALWAYS evil.  No matter who is doing it or what their excuse is - it cannot be 'koshered' by any perceived good intentions.


Tell me, what would those fine loving people call any organized effort to bring an end to Christianity??? 


 


 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2012 - 6:17PM #15
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,900

Jun 27, 2012 -- 10:38AM, nieciedo wrote:


....


So  they rebrand it, or they try a stealth markering angle to get the ideas across in a way that Jews might not reject out of hand at first glance with the hope that at least one seed or two will get planted.


As for why a Jew would want to become a Christian, maybe it's because s/he found that the Jewish religion didn't do anything for him/her, that the Jewish community did not support him/her, and found instead the spiritual connection and community that s/he wanted in a Christian church. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that whatsoever.




BS"D


If the conversion to Christianity did not also mean the separation from the Jewish people I would agree with you.  At least that the MJ's got right.  But religion is supposed to be the expression of one's spirituality and not its source.  Otherwise it is like saying the only reason that a horse exists is to pull a cart.  In truth spirituality is a very broad human experience and religion is merely the local expression of it.


That is why it's OK for a Jew to practice Buddhism and other wisdom religions but it is another thing entirely to convert to a religion that is inherently and religiously toxic to the Jewish people.


My father is Blackfoot.  He was kidnapped from his family and raised as a Christian.  He knows no other faith or way of life save the abuse he experienced by those whose mission was to convert him from the faith of his people to the faith of his oppressors.  There is zero chance for spiritual growth in such a case, only the conditioned propagation of oppression and fear.


Now I see nothing but evil in the actions of a proselytizer of any faith.  They are driven by fear and feelings of inadequacy that they project on others.  They seek the weakest psychological point in another and leverage that to convince them that they are wrong and that the alien faith is the correction they need.  That is S-L-E-A-Z-Y and not in a good way.


Now imagine an extraterrestrial meeting a Christian.  I can only predict the outcome would be genocide.  Proselytizing is always the precursor to enslavement and genocide.


Now I have nothing against the individual who desires and chooses for themself a particular religion.  But I have nothing good to say about one who actively seeks to recruit others to their faith.  Divine prophets do NOT preach a particular faith, rather a correction of errors within any specific group's behavior whether it is their own people or another.


Native American prophets such as that Paiute holy man Wovoka understood what good Christianity had to offer and borrowed liberally from it.  But the divine message he preached was the end of the white man's way and the return of the Red Way.  It was corrective to both the white man and the red man.  He didn't preach everyone should accept Jesus and he didn't preach that NDNz should become white.  He preached a return of all peoples to their own sacred traditions.   


That is the source of spirituality but its heart is you, the living individual.


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2012 - 10:52PM #16
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

What is the likelihood that any proselytizers are going to reduce the number of Jews practicing Judaism to zero? Zero. 


I really don't get why sharing religious beliefs is such a horrible offensive thing. If you're not interested, then say "No" and be done with it. I was approached by both Scientologists and Jehovah's Witnesses today and that's what I said. Is selling memes really different from selling anything else?


I was disappointed in the JWs. They set up a table with booklets saying "What does the Bible REALLY teach?" No Watchtower, no Awake!  I wouldn't have known who they are except until I saw "Jehovah" all over the place in they're booklet. I guess they are wishing up that they have a bad brand image?


Do you object to Chabad attempting to proselytize to Jews to bring them closer to their way of being Jewish regardless of how happy people may be with their own Jewish practice? Why is that different?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 6:49AM #17
river8101
Posts: 5,544

There's a difference between someone coming to my home, "pretending" to be Jewish, and handing me a wrapped DVD with Jewish pictures all over it and finding out it's really a Christian evangelical tape urging Jews to convert and worship Jesus or end up in hell.


If someone comes to my house such as JW's, they don't use any pretense.  I know who they are.  I know what they want.  I just don't give them money and refuse to take their paraphernalia.  I took it once to find out what JW's were selling (they ask for donations) and their writings disgusted me.  According to them, Jews and non believers in "their" religion would end up in hell, a terrible place. Along with the warnings were bible verses and sayings by their founders or leaders, whatever.    But! we could join their religion and be saved from such torment.  They came now and then, and I always brush them off.  A few times they brought little children, dragging them around from house to house on hot summer days.  The kids looked very tired. 


One day, after they left, I got the brilliant idea of giving them something of mine.  I looked though the internet for something I could give them next time they showed up.   Jews for Judaism had put out a packet of leaflets which was called A GUIDE TO MISSIONARY TACTICS.  Among the topics were CAMOUFLAGE, ASSUMING SUPERIORITY, DECEPTION, LOVING US TO DEATH, COVER-UP, THE NUMBERS RACKET, CIRCULAR REASONING, MISTRANSLATION, QUOTING OUT OF CONTEXT,  and USE THE PROPER RESOURCES. I copied it off the internet and made a few xtras.


Next time J.W. came, but I'd forgotten to leave the leaflets near my door, and instead they were back in my office.   By the time I got back to the door, they were leaving, and I asked them to take my pamplet.  The looked startled and started rushing off.  They then ran out to the street, and rounded up another group to where a car was waiting to pick them up when they were finished. They seemed frightened.  They huddled with a few other JW's and then called some from down the street.  They all quickly piled in the waiting car which drove away.  I was sorry they didn't take my stuff, but the good part was they never came again.  Before that, I saw them about once a year, and that was years ago. 


Had I only known that this young lady's DVD was what it was, I might have shared my pamplets with her, and helped her out of her religion, as she was trying to help me out of mine. 


jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_...

“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 7:25AM #18
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

The JWs don't believe in hell. They think that when we die, we just die. *Poof* Out, out, brief candle. 


Only if you're a good JW however do you get resurrected at the end of time to live forever in the new creation. Oh, and 144,000 real super duper good JWs get to rule with Jehovah in heaven. 


The Mormons don't even really have a hell. There's a "spirit prison" where people go after death if they haven't been saved through the Church, but they only stay there until the end of the world. After that, we get to go to the Terrestrial Kingdom, which is supposed to be eternal life in a recreated and perfected paradise world (Christians get to go to the "Telestial Kingdom" which seems to be like the traditional depictions of Heaven; super extra good Mormons get to go to the Celestial Kingdom where they get to be gods and goddesses of their own planets). There is talk of "the outer darkness," but very few people seem to end up there. 


In eschatological terms, then, the Mormons seem the best bet. Not only will Jews get to live in paradise, but neither Christians nor Jesus (he stays in the Telestial and Celestial Kingdoms) will be there to bother you. 


I agree that the marketing of this DVD was deceptive and cowardly. But I understand why they felt they needed to do it that way. 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 7:35AM #19
river8101
Posts: 5,544

Gee, how is it the Jews get to Paradise?  Why should a Jew convert to Mormonism if they get to Paradise by staying Jewish?  humm.   I like the other planets though.  Sounds fascinating!!!


I read about Jews and Mormons on the same Jews for Judaism lectures.  Sounded to me as though, Mormons think Jews are about as low as you can get, and no redeeming for them.  Actually it sounds pretty weird all the way through.  In fact, they are taught that Jews cannot convert to Christianity.  "Can You Make a Christian Out of a Jew?"


jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_...


Well, now I have another reason for voting for Obama, although his preacher was pretty down on Jews too.  Humm.  So, we have 2 reasons for not trusting either guy, where religion's concerned.   One had a preacher who defamed the Jews in every way on TV!  And the other one belongs to a religion that thinks Jews are about as low as you can get and cannot become Christians.  At least that's what I got from the article on Mormonism.   


These people are fascinating!  Do they really believe what nonsense they preach?  Here's the sticker though.  They can't prove any of it because there is not an iota of proof that anybody has ever come back from the dead and told us what happens. 

“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 9:23PM #20
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,900

Jun 27, 2012 -- 10:52PM, nieciedo wrote:


What is the likelihood that any proselytizers are going to reduce the number of Jews practicing Judaism to zero? Zero.



BS"D


In this age I agree with you.


Jun 27, 2012 -- 10:52PM, nieciedo wrote:

I really don't get why sharing religious beliefs is such a horrible offensive thing. If you're not interested, then say "No" and be done with it. I was approached by both Scientologists and Jehovah's Witnesses today and that's what I said. Is selling memes really different from selling anything else?



You can't say "no" and be done with it when the other's religion demands that they keep harassing you.  And as far as memes, they are either as helpful as a retrovirus or as deadly as a virus.  Every person should have the right to not be harassed by memes that they deem toxic. 


Jun 27, 2012 -- 10:52PM, nieciedo wrote:

Do you object to Chabad attempting to proselytize to Jews to bring them closer to their way of being Jewish regardless of how happy people may be with their own Jewish practice? Why is that different?




It's different because Chabad does not proselytize to their Lubavitch beliefs.  They do not force Torah on people in order to assure their place in Heaven.  They only want to preserve their own tradition for those who are amenable to it.  You can tell a Chabadnik to go away and you'll never hear from them again.  Not so an Evangelist.  That is ironic that Chabadniks rather than Evangelists are actually the ones obeying the alleged comand of Jesus in this regard.


If one is comfortable being a Reform Jew and is approached by a Chabadnik and tells the Chabadnik that putting on Tfillin is not for them, the Chabadnik will not harass them about it. That's the difference.  Advertising is one thing but in-your-face harassment and legal instruments to support that harassment (as in every Christian nation until the Age of Reason) is quite another and I consider that other to be quite evil.


And it is likewise for any sect of Judaism just as it is for Evangelists - proselytization is evil.   Offering is one thing, deceiving and fearmongering is evil.

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