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Switch to Forum Live View Does the Bible know about Islam?
2 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2012 - 12:40PM #21
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,221

BDboy


Unless you can provide a genealogy to show the descent of Mohammed from Abraham (which does not exist) your argument is unsupportable. (Again, if you wish to believe it as a matter of faith, then you are free to do so. You do not need my permission to believe whatever you wish nor do you need my agreement with your belief) Even if you could find such a genealogy the fact that Mohammed was born to a family of idolaters in a country of idolaters and was raised in a society of idolaters proves that any connection which may have existed was severed.


Sorry Charlie. There is no connection of Islam to either Judaism or Christianity except by adoption. Why do you hate adoption?  I don't. I certainly do not think any less of Islam because the connection is by adoption, why should you?   

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2012 - 12:46PM #22
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,221

BDboy


Rabbis are teachers. The role of Rabbis is to study, to learn and to teach.




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2 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2012 - 5:06PM #23
BDboy
Posts: 5,831

Jun 22, 2012 -- 12:40PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


BDboy


Unless you can provide a genealogy to show the descent of Mohammed from Abraham (which does not exist) your argument is unsupportable. (Again, if you wish to believe it as a matter of faith, then you are free to do so. You do not need my permission to believe whatever you wish nor do you need my agreement with your belief) Even if you could find such a genealogy the fact that Mohammed was born to a family of idolaters in a country of idolaters and was raised in a society of idolaters proves that any connection which may have existed was severed.


Sorry Charlie. There is no connection of Islam to either Judaism or Christianity except by adoption. Why do you hate adoption?  I don't. I certainly do not think any less of Islam because the connection is by adoption, why should you?   




>>>>>>> If you ask a question, allow me to answer. It seems like you already decided the answer BEFORE it was given to you. Undecided


Either way, here is a chart of his family which shows a direct link to prophet Abraham (PBUH). Please click here.


The web link has a graph of the family tree.


There are another writer who researched the this issue and came up with names of each generation since Abraham. I'll share it below. In arabic bin means son of. Same as hebrew ben.


The first part: Muhammad bin ‘Abdullah bin ‘Abdul-Muttalib (who was called Shaiba) bin Hashim, (named ‘Amr) bin ‘Abd Munaf (called Al-Mugheera) bin Qusai (also called Zaid) bin Kilab bin Murra bin Ka‘b bin Lo’i bin Ghalib bin Fahr (who was called Quraish and whose tribe was called after him) bin Malik bin An-Nadr (so called Qais) bin Kinana bin Khuzaiman bin Mudrikah (who was called ‘Amir) bin Elias bin Mudar bin Nizar bin Ma‘ad bin ‘Adnan. [Ibn Hisham 1/1,2; Talqeeh Fuhoom Ahl Al-Athar, p. 5-6; Rahmat-ul-lil'alameen 2/11-14,52]


The second part: ‘Adnan bin Add bin Humaisi‘ bin Salaman bin Aws bin Buz bin Qamwal bin Obai bin ‘Awwam bin Nashid bin Haza bin Bildas bin Yadlaf bin Tabikh bin Jahim bin Nahish bin Makhi bin Aid bin ‘Abqar bin ‘Ubaid bin Ad-Da‘a bin Hamdan bin Sanbir bin Yathrabi bin Yahzin bin Yalhan bin Ar‘awi bin Aid bin Deshan bin Aisar bin Afnad bin Aiham bin Muksar bin Nahith bin Zarih bin Sami bin Mazzi bin ‘Awda bin Aram bin Qaidar bin Ishmael son of Abraham [AWS]. [Rahmat-ul-lil'alameen 2/14-17]

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2012 - 6:19PM #24
visio
Posts: 3,395

Jun 22, 2012 -- 12:30PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Viso
Let me make this easy for you:
Bene Israel ='s Jews
Yehudi ='s Jews
Bene Israel and Yehudim are just different names for the same people. (If you have trouble with this concept remember that people from the United States are called Americans, Yanks, Yankees, Americanos, Gringos, etc.... but we are the same folks under any name)


There are no people who are Bene Israel who are not Jews. There are Jewish “Arabs” just like there are Jewish “Europeans” and just like there as Jewish “Africans” and just like there are Jewish everything else. We just refer to ourselves as Jews.



If someone who is not Jewish calls themselves Bene Israel, they are lying.
If someone who is not Jewish calls themselves Yehudi, they are lying.
If someone calls non Jews, Bene Israel, they are lying.
If someone calls non Jews, Yehudim, they are lying.
If you read in any book that non Jews are Bene Israel, that book is lying.
If you read in any book that non Jews are Yehudim, that book is lying.
If anyone tells you that the Yehudim and bene Israel are different peoples, they are lying.
If you read in any book that ther Yehudim and Bene Israel are different people, that book is lying.


Whatever else he may have done, Mohammed never “lived as a Jew”. Had he converted to Judaism, or even known much about Judaism, Islam would never have been developed by him and or his followers.


G-d made a covenant with the Jewish people. The covenant is complete and valid forever. G-d is not inconstant, G-d is not capricious, G-d does not change his mind.



G-d has given other gifts to other people. Therefore, it is not beyond imagining that G-d could give an understanding of the divine to other peoples as well as a road map for how to behave in this world to other people. In fact, we assert that he did. That is why there are other monotheistic traditions. Islam is one of them.



You can get yourself stuck to your dancing magic of creating and changing labels whereever it would take you.   Without explaining the big picture of the universe, mankind and the jinn kind and interaction of spirits, (subtle) mind matters and gross matters, thereby explaining away THAT ONE the Al-Quran indicates as ALLAHswt the WHOLE purpose and order of creation, your statements above just remain as statements just like that of "Aaaah!  Steinway is a better piano, Peking Ducks are better than Washington Chicken, bla...blaaah".  In facts, they rather reinforce my view that the flocks - call it nation, state whatever you like, you refer to as Jews, are still stuck with the ancient mentalitily of flesh and blood genealogy. Genealogy is a cool word. Sounds new age and civil.   But it is not a bit of difference than family tree tribalism/middle age feudalism wherein elements on spiritualism is superficial.   I have yet to hear your explanation of the contents of Exodus 20 : 5 that the whole of Judeo-Christianity is so proud of and has traded it eversince they began they exploit of world conquest.   Al-Quran had taken a long time gap (>1000 years) after Musasaw (Moses) to explain Exodus 20 : 5.  Of course, not in the way/form that your flesh and blood lineage, would intellectually aspect it.   If you cannot, then, I am sorry, your quote-mine is not worth anybody's time to entertain to.  


I used to take Audio Hi-Fi as a hobby, even constructing DIY speaker/enclosures with various branded components.  And I know sounds are very subjective.  Here we talk about sounds that man make.  For the spiritual sould that the Divine had made for each of us, it is, respectively, more subjective a million time over.  




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2 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2012 - 7:05PM #25
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,221

BDboy


Your geneology accounts for at most about 480 years between Abraham and Mohamed. Sorry, but Mohamed lived in the 7th century C.E. which is a few thousand years removed from Abraham. Feel free to try again. 


Of course, since Mohamed was born to idoloters and a tribe of idoloters whatever the geneologic connection could have been is immaterial. The link would have been broken. 


Sorry.




 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2012 - 10:59AM #26
BDboy
Posts: 5,831

Jun 22, 2012 -- 7:05PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


BDboy


Your geneology accounts for at most about 480 years between Abraham and Mohamed. Sorry, but Mohamed lived in the 7th century C.E. which is a few thousand years removed from Abraham. Feel free to try again. 


Of course, since Mohamed was born to idoloters and a tribe of idoloters whatever the geneologic connection could have been is immaterial. The link would have been broken. 


Sorry.




 




 


>>>>>>>>> As I said, you do ask question but unless answer fits your expectation, you are too quick to dismiss them.


Just remember, Prophet Abraham and Ismael (PBUT) built the holy mosque in Mecca. Footprint of our father Abraham (PBUH) is still there. Muhammad son of Abdullah (PBUH) came from the tribe who have links to Abraham (PBUH). Even today millions of pilgrims who go to annual pilgrimage of hajj actually follow the ways of Abraham.


Number of Jews are insignificant compare to Muslims and Christians. Still we acknowledge Jews as our spiritual cousins because God and history told us so. There is no benifit to it in material sense but it is a gift given to Bani Israel from God and we simply validate it.


Seems like it troubles you to think you may have some spiritual link with Christians and Muslims.


In practical matters, it really does not have much worldy value to me. Only religious history that we share....

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2012 - 5:51PM #27
Ibn
Posts: 4,946

Jun 22, 2012 -- 7:12AM, Ibn wrote:


Jun 21, 2012 -- 7:57PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


visio


You could use a better piano teacher.


1. we have no priests.


2. we have all the revelation we need.


3. prophecy was not what you think it was or is.


4. by and large we have progressed beyond "magic names"


5. Jews are the bene Israel and Mohamed knew it



rocketjsquirrel,


"Judaism" is a "magic name". There is no "Judaism" in the Bible.


God had given only "Islam" to mankind as Deen.




Jun 22, 2012 -- 9:45AM, browbeaten wrote:

Ignorant people usually make ignorant statements.


Ignorant people usually make statements in ignorance.



Jun 22, 2012 -- 9:45AM, browbeaten wrote:

Judaism is a name people have attributed to describe the nation of Jews and their covenant with G-d.


Judaism is a name given by the Romans to the religion of Yehudim living in Judea at the time.


A religion from God is named by God; not by any human being.



Jun 22, 2012 -- 9:45AM, browbeaten wrote:

You can call that religion Jewdaism, Judahism, Israelism or anything else you want and it would not change anything.


It will be, therefore, regarded as man-named religion unlike Islam.



Jun 22, 2012 -- 9:45AM, browbeaten wrote:

The bible speaks of the Nation of Jews.


The Bible does not speak at all nor it speaks of Judaism. Nation of Jews is not Judaism unless you are getting mixed up.


 


Jun 22, 2012 -- 9:45AM, browbeaten wrote:

People today describe the religion of these people as Judaism.


Why today and not when you agreed to the Sinai covenant?



Jun 22, 2012 -- 9:45AM, browbeaten wrote:

It is a man-made description.


That's right! It is man-made description rather than description by G-d.



Jun 22, 2012 -- 9:45AM, browbeaten wrote:

Jews don't need a name for their religion.


Then you do not need to call yourselves "Jews". There is no need for it for the same reason.



Jun 22, 2012 -- 9:45AM, browbeaten wrote:

It is the one-true religion that represents OUR covenant with G-d and does not need a name.


When was YOUR covenant made with G-d? Yehuda, Yehudim and Bani Israel (even Israel) predates YOUR covenant with G-d. Therefore, either Judaism predates Sinai covenant and, therefore, Sinai covenant is not Judaism or you don't know why you call your religion "Judaism".

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2012 - 6:08PM #28
Ibn
Posts: 4,946

Jun 22, 2012 -- 12:30PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

As we have discussed before, faith is faith and facts are facts. They do not always coincide. In this case you can believe that G-d named the religion of Islam, Islam. That belief does not change the fact that Islam is the name Muslims have decided to call their religion.


rocketjsquirrel,


You can write millions of times that Islam is named by Muslims but it will not change the fact that G-d called it Islam and made it clear that He has never given to mankind any other religion than Islam (which means Submission/obeying G-d's commands) and He will never accept any other religion than Islam. Even your religion (the Sinai covenant) was "obeying G-d's commands" ("Islam") but some bright spark changed it to Jehudism when re-writing the Torah number 1 or the Torah number 2 (the oral torah). 

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2012 - 6:35PM #29
Ibn
Posts: 4,946

Jun 22, 2012 -- 7:05PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


BDboy


Your geneology accounts for at most about 480 years between Abraham and Mohamed. Sorry, but Mohamed lived in the 7th century C.E. which is a few thousand years removed from Abraham. Feel free to try again.


Abraham's descendants were not producing a new generation every 8.727 years. Feel free to try again! 


Jun 22, 2012 -- 7:05PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

Of course, since Mohamed was born to idoloters and a tribe of idoloters whatever the geneologic connection could have been is immaterial. The link would have been broken. 


Sorry.



Abraham was also born to idolators. What's your point?


The fact (disclosed in your bible) that Israelites had always been experts in idol making and idol worshipping as proved by the skill of Aaron in making the golden calf proves that there was a link between Abraham and Muhammad (pbut).

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2012 - 10:01PM #30
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,221

Ibn'


The geneology presented provides 23 generations. Do the math.


Facts are facts.


Fiction is fiction.


There is no evidence that Abraham was ever in Arabia, and since his life story is fairly detailed in the Hebrew Bible (in which you claim to believe - but do not seem to), there was no apparent opportunity or reason for him to travel to that destination. Of course, I really do not care if you want to believe it. I really do not care that you believe all sorts of other stuff which was made up by men living in Arabia in the 7th century. It would be nice if you were a bit more honest about it, but it makes no difference to me.


We can leave the discussion of how names are developed by men (not G-d) the meanings of names, and why certain cultures assign different significance to names for another time. The discussion would involve a knowledge of sociology, ethnology, anthropology, and linguistics which you may not currenly posses. It also requires a bit of intellectual distance and the ability to question which you do not have.  


   

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