Important Announcement

See here for an important message regarding the community which has become a read-only site as of October 31.

 
Post Reply
Page 11 of 16  •  Prev 1 ... 9 10 11 12 13 ... 16 Next
Switch to Forum Live View Forced to Convert to Islam!
6 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 2:53PM #101
browbeaten
Posts: 3,484

Jun 28, 2012 -- 10:25AM, Miraj wrote:


Jun 28, 2012 -- 9:24AM, browbeaten wrote:


Jun 28, 2012 -- 6:10AM, Ibn wrote:



Perhaps you are also not aware of the difference between "Muslims" and "Islam".


Do you want to discuss and debate "Muslims" or "Islam"?  




So anytime an issue comes up Muslims acting on "behalf" of the Qur'an, you're going to throw this out that there is a difference between Muslims and Islam?  Essentially, you are saying that only "good" Muslims practice Islam and all others do not.  How convenient and utter Bull$hit.




No BS involved.  That there is a difference between the faith and the follower is true for any faith, including yours.  The faith itself is the ideal; the adherents are inherently flawed.  Just as you are not responsible for the bad acts of other Jews, we're not responsible for the bad acts of other Muslims.  


If you insist that the lowest common denominators among Muslims define Islam, then you need to be prepared to allow the same thing for Judaism, especially so since, according to Jews, one not even practice Judaism to be Jewish.  That would mean that everything they do reflects on Judaism, so, anyone who could be defined as Jewish would define Judaism, no matter how far from Judaism their behavior is.




Of course I understand that, but lowest common denominator??  The problem is vastly different when clergy, governments, etc are promoting this "flawed" behavior.  My problem is using the statement that "they are not following true Islam" as an excuse for what we are talking about.


Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 2:57PM #102
browbeaten
Posts: 3,484

Jun 28, 2012 -- 10:37AM, BDboy wrote:


Jun 28, 2012 -- 9:24AM, browbeaten wrote:


Jun 28, 2012 -- 6:10AM, Ibn wrote:



Perhaps you are also not aware of the difference between "Muslims" and "Islam".


Do you want to discuss and debate "Muslims" or "Islam"?  




So anytime an issue comes up Muslims acting on "behalf" of the Qur'an, you're going to throw this out that there is a difference between Muslims and Islam?  Essentially, you are saying that only "good" Muslims practice Islam and all others do not.  How convenient and utter Bull$hit.





 


>>>>>>>> Nope. What we have been saying Islam does NOT accept forceful converting. It has been clearly stated in the Qur'an.


Few examples were given where Muslim rulers ruled for many centuries and there are no sitution where mass conversion took place.


So if someone do it privately, it is NOT accepted by Islam.


I can say the same with Judaism. This practice is not seen among Jewish people either.


pretty easy concept.




Whether or not that is true is besides the point.  All the "other" Muslims (which include clergy and high ranking officials) may disagree with you and believe that it is not only acceptable by Islam, but often times, required.  That is the problem that Muslim are faced with and should be addressed.


Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 4:02PM #103
world citizen
Posts: 6,480

Jun 28, 2012 -- 6:24AM, Ibn wrote:

Jun 27, 2012 -- 11:32AM, world citizen wrote:


Al hamdulilahee rabbee al aalameena that we are Muslims, and we pray to die as Muslims, and to meet Allah as Muslims and nothing worth behind this.


Wassalatoo wassalamoo ala Rasulee Allah SAW.


and in the end  and ever full thanks to rabbee alaalameen.



As a courtesy to non-Arabic speaking moderators who must judge the content of all posts for possible ROC violations, it is preferable that posts be written in English.  There is nothing wrong in writing occasionally with another language but it would be courteous to ALL Beliefnet members if it were translated also into English (perhaps in brackets like this).


Thank you for your cooperation with this.


World Citizen, co-moderator
Beliefnet Discuss Islam forum



FYI,


Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the worlds.


Peace & blessings be upon messenger of Allah.


(SAW is also short for what is written before it)


Thank you very much, my friend Ibn.  Smile

Blessed is he who mingleth with all men in a spirit of utmost kindliness and love.  ~Baha'u'llah
Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 10:58PM #104
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Jun 28, 2012 -- 2:53PM, browbeaten wrote:


Jun 28, 2012 -- 10:25AM, Miraj wrote:


Jun 28, 2012 -- 9:24AM, browbeaten wrote:


Jun 28, 2012 -- 6:10AM, Ibn wrote:



Perhaps you are also not aware of the difference between "Muslims" and "Islam".


Do you want to discuss and debate "Muslims" or "Islam"?  




So anytime an issue comes up Muslims acting on "behalf" of the Qur'an, you're going to throw this out that there is a difference between Muslims and Islam?  Essentially, you are saying that only "good" Muslims practice Islam and all others do not.  How convenient and utter Bull$hit.




No BS involved.  That there is a difference between the faith and the follower is true for any faith, including yours.  The faith itself is the ideal; the adherents are inherently flawed.  Just as you are not responsible for the bad acts of other Jews, we're not responsible for the bad acts of other Muslims.  


If you insist that the lowest common denominators among Muslims define Islam, then you need to be prepared to allow the same thing for Judaism, especially so since, according to Jews, one not even practice Judaism to be Jewish.  That would mean that everything they do reflects on Judaism, so, anyone who could be defined as Jewish would define Judaism, no matter how far from Judaism their behavior is.




Of course I understand that, but lowest common denominator??  The problem is vastly different when clergy, governments, etc are promoting this "flawed" behavior.  My problem is using the statement that "they are not following true Islam" as an excuse for what we are talking about.




It's not an excuse; no one is excusing it.  It's an explanation, and a plausible one since there is no demonstrable evidence that such a practice is recommended, condoned nor justified in Islam.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


PhotobucketPhotobucket
Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2012 - 7:36AM #105
Ibn
Posts: 6,037

Jun 28, 2012 -- 9:24AM, browbeaten wrote:


Jun 28, 2012 -- 6:10AM, Ibn wrote:


Perhaps you are also not aware of the difference between "Muslims" and "Islam".


Do you want to discuss and debate "Muslims" or "Islam"?  




So anytime an issue comes up Muslims acting on "behalf" of the Qur'an, you're going to throw this out that there is a difference between Muslims and Islam


Muslims do not act on behalf of the Qur'an or Qur'an acts on behalf of the Muslims. You need to understand the difference between "Muslims" and "Islam".


Let me help you get yourself out of your confusion:


Islam, basically, is action or actions of obeying commands from Allah/G-d/God. If there is no command in the Qur'an for forcing non-muslims to convert then forcing non-muslims to convert is not Islam, and Islam cannot be blamed for any such unislamic action.


A "Muslim" is someone who obeys the commands from G-d/Allah/God. Anyone who does opposite to what he was commanded by G-d/Allah/God cannot be called "Muslim".


From the above, you would gather that not everyone who calls himself "Muslim" is a Muslim but only those who obey the commands. There are no "good Muslims" or "bad Muslims" but only "Muslims" and "non-muslims".


Jun 28, 2012 -- 9:24AM, browbeaten wrote:

Essentially, you are saying that only "good" Muslims practice Islam and all others do not.  How convenient and utter Bull$hit.


It is Bull$hit in your mind because you can't tell the difference between "Muslims" and "Islam" or even between people who live life within Islam and those who live life outside Islam.


Can you understand my last point?


Hint: "Muslims" are not a race like Bani Israel is a race and group of tribes that began with sons of Israel (Jacob).

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.
(Winston Churchill)
Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2012 - 10:17AM #106
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 19,045

Ibn


Brow cannot see the difference between Muslims and Islam because there is, actually, no difference between Muslims and Islam.  Here, again we have the "belief is belief and fact is fact" problem.


You believe that there is an ideal which exists and it is called Islam. You further believe that people who identify as Muslims should act (or perhaps do act) in line with that ideal. That is a belief and it is perfectly valid as a belief. On the other hand, other people rely on observation and see that there exists people who identify themselves as Muslim and followers of a religion they identify as Islam. Thus to those people who understand the universe based on observation the practices of Muslims are Islam. I think Brow is one of those people. Since your starting points are divergent your conclusions will also diverge.  Further argument will not be able to resolve the difference.


 

Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2012 - 1:44PM #107
BDboy
Posts: 8,220

Jun 29, 2012 -- 10:17AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Ibn


Brow cannot see the difference between Muslims and Islam because there is, actually, no difference between Muslims and Islam.  Here, again we have the "belief is belief and fact is fact" problem.


You believe that there is an ideal which exists and it is called Islam. You further believe that people who identify as Muslims should act (or perhaps do act) in line with that ideal. That is a belief and it is perfectly valid as a belief. On the other hand, other people rely on observation and see that there exists people who identify themselves as Muslim and followers of a religion they identify as Islam. Thus to those people who understand the universe based on observation the practices of Muslims are Islam. I think Brow is one of those people. Since your starting points are divergent your conclusions will also diverge.  Further argument will not be able to resolve the difference.


 




 


>>>>>>> Anyone is free to accept whatever he/she wants to.


The basic point is very simple. I have NO intention  to explain actions of 1.7 billion people and there forefathers for last 1400+ years.


FACTS about this topic are recorded in history. I have given two verifyable examples.


Now until now I have not seen any specific concerns of those areas (Covering 1000 years in most parts of Muslim world).


So there was never any issue of state sponsoring "Forced" conversion.


There are some Muslims who do not pray, do not support charity etc. These are fundamental obligations of every Muslim. So they will get a chance to meet their Maker and explain.


If someone privately force anyone to marry or convert, it has NO relations with the religion. Neither is it accepted in Islam.


Case closed.




 

Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2012 - 2:41PM #108
browbeaten
Posts: 3,484

Jun 29, 2012 -- 1:44PM, BDboy wrote:


Jun 29, 2012 -- 10:17AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Ibn


Brow cannot see the difference between Muslims and Islam because there is, actually, no difference between Muslims and Islam.  Here, again we have the "belief is belief and fact is fact" problem.


You believe that there is an ideal which exists and it is called Islam. You further believe that people who identify as Muslims should act (or perhaps do act) in line with that ideal. That is a belief and it is perfectly valid as a belief. On the other hand, other people rely on observation and see that there exists people who identify themselves as Muslim and followers of a religion they identify as Islam. Thus to those people who understand the universe based on observation the practices of Muslims are Islam. I think Brow is one of those people. Since your starting points are divergent your conclusions will also diverge.  Further argument will not be able to resolve the difference.


 




 


>>>>>>> Anyone is free to accept whatever he/she wants to.


The basic point is very simple. I have NO intention  to explain actions of 1.7 billion people and there forefathers for last 1400+ years.


FACTS about this topic are recorded in history. I have given two verifyable examples.


Now until now I have not seen any specific concerns of those areas (Covering 1000 years in most parts of Muslim world).


So there was never any issue of state sponsoring "Forced" conversion.


There are some Muslims who do not pray, do not support charity etc. These are fundamental obligations of every Muslim. So they will get a chance to meet their Maker and explain.


If someone privately force anyone to marry or convert, it has NO relations with the religion. Neither is it accepted in Islam.


Case closed.
 




How nice for you, but you can't close this case on a lie.  It was religious leaders and governments involve(d) in forced conversions, NOT someone acting privately.  Get a grip.




Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2012 - 3:01PM #109
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Jun 29, 2012 -- 2:41PM, browbeaten wrote:


Jun 29, 2012 -- 1:44PM, BDboy wrote:


Jun 29, 2012 -- 10:17AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Ibn


Brow cannot see the difference between Muslims and Islam because there is, actually, no difference between Muslims and Islam.  Here, again we have the "belief is belief and fact is fact" problem.


You believe that there is an ideal which exists and it is called Islam. You further believe that people who identify as Muslims should act (or perhaps do act) in line with that ideal. That is a belief and it is perfectly valid as a belief. On the other hand, other people rely on observation and see that there exists people who identify themselves as Muslim and followers of a religion they identify as Islam. Thus to those people who understand the universe based on observation the practices of Muslims are Islam. I think Brow is one of those people. Since your starting points are divergent your conclusions will also diverge.  Further argument will not be able to resolve the difference.


 




 


>>>>>>> Anyone is free to accept whatever he/she wants to.


The basic point is very simple. I have NO intention  to explain actions of 1.7 billion people and there forefathers for last 1400+ years.


FACTS about this topic are recorded in history. I have given two verifyable examples.


Now until now I have not seen any specific concerns of those areas (Covering 1000 years in most parts of Muslim world).


So there was never any issue of state sponsoring "Forced" conversion.


There are some Muslims who do not pray, do not support charity etc. These are fundamental obligations of every Muslim. So they will get a chance to meet their Maker and explain.


If someone privately force anyone to marry or convert, it has NO relations with the religion. Neither is it accepted in Islam.


Case closed.
 




How nice for you, but you can't close this case on a lie.  It was religious leaders and governments involve(d) in forced conversions, NOT someone acting privately.  Get a grip.




Where is Islam in their acts?  No where, and there is no way for them to prove it is.  Where is the lie?  On them, not on us.  They and their acts don't define Islam for the rest of us.  Neither do you.  Only Allah does, and he is against forced conversion.  


BDBoy is right.  That's pretty much it.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


PhotobucketPhotobucket
Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2012 - 3:04PM #110
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 19,045

Brow


Explaining history to the ahistorical does not work. One has to live in a fact based world to accept facts and history. Not everyone lives in a fact based world. That is why the only resolution we can come to is the agreement that forcing conversion is wrong. At the end of the day, we can only hope that the idea that forced conversion is wrong will become universally accepted and the practice will stop.

Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 11 of 16  •  Prev 1 ... 9 10 11 12 13 ... 16 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook