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Switch to Forum Live View Forced to Convert to Islam!
2 years ago  ::  Jul 22, 2012 - 10:16AM #151
Ibn
Posts: 5,009

Jul 22, 2012 -- 12:45AM, Shusha wrote:


Islam is not everything that a self-proclaimed Muslim does but what is required of him by G-d.



Ibn,


Yes, I understand that. But when a Muslim does not do what is required of him or her by G-d, does he or she cease to be Muslim? Are they cut off from G-d? Or are they just bad* Muslims?


Thanks for the questions. I can understand why many non-muslims are unable to understand who a Muslim is or what is Islam. I will try to explain in some detail and then you may have the answers to your questions.


Although it is commonly assumed that “Islam” (with a capital I in English only) is a religion of a group of people called Muslims, technically it is not correct. In reality, “islam” (no capital letters in Arabic) is an action of obedience to G-d/Allah, submission to G-d/Allah by way of obeying relevant commandment (out of many) at any given time. Therefore, one can be obeying a G-d’s command at one time and doing the opposite at another other time. If that happens, one can be technically in “islam” in the former case but out of “islam” in the latter case. From this you can understand that a Muslim (someone who is obeying G-d’s commandments) is not a Muslim all the time but only when obeying command at any given time. Therefore, technically, someone can be called “Muslim” when only obeying the commandments but “hypocrite” or “kafir” when knowingly and deliberately not obeying the relevant command while claiming to be obeying.


Miraj has tried to explain that each person is responsible for his/her actions. Only G-d is the Judge of each person’s actions. I can explain what G-d’s command is from the scriptures, in any given issue, but I cannot be judge of a person’s action when obeying G-d’s commands as G-d is the only judge.      


Jul 22, 2012 -- 12:45AM, Shusha wrote:

In other words, when Miraj implies that Pakistan, with its near total population of Muslims, has nothing to do with Islam does she mean that they are not Muslims or that they are bad Muslims?


She has explained that Pakistan is not a religion (i.e. Islam) but a geographical country. Technically, Pakistan means “land of purity” but in reality it is full of impurity. In Karachi alone, there is at least one murder a day on average. Yet, murder is forbidden in the Qur’an. Therefore, the actions of Pakistanis should not be taken as Islamic actions.


 


Jul 22, 2012 -- 12:45AM, Shusha wrote:

Or possibly she just doesn't know if they are Muslims or not because she hasn't had the opportunity to interview each one to make a proper determination.


Only G-d can make proper determination about someone whether s/he is Muslim or not. Miraj cannot be judge nor can I. All we can do is explain what is an islamic action according to our understanding and what is unislamic action according to our understanding. That is only up to G-d and to be determined/judged in His court.


In the court of man, it is what is criminal or not criminal according to the laws of the country. Such crimes are determined and punished by human judge if committed against other human beings. It is not up to man to determine whether someone is guilty of a crime against G-d. Being a non-muslim is not a crime against human beings and, therefore, it cannot be punished by man. This is why it is said in the Qur’an that there is no compulsion in deen/religion (way in which people walk/live their lives). Islam is action of obeying G-d and, therefore, being in relationship with G-d. G-d will know how good or strong that relationship is from man’s side.


Jul 22, 2012 -- 12:45AM, Shusha wrote:

It seems to me that many Muslims try to divorce themselves from other Muslims as though the  groups have nothing in common. It is both disconcerting and confusing.


The only thing that Muslims have in common is that they are all required to obey the commandments. Obeying G-d’s commands is up to each individual. There is nothing in Islam that will hold one person responsible for another’s bad actions. If G-d is not going to hold me responsible for the actions of, say, Bin Laden or GWB then why should any person hold me responsible for their actions? The same goes for the actions of GWB. We cannot hold all Americans for his bad actions. That does not mean that GWB had nothing in common with the Americans.


Jul 22, 2012 -- 12:45AM, Shusha wrote:

*when I say "bad" Muslims, I do not wish to imply evil;, I mean simply that they are not "proper" Muslims; that they don't accurately follow the Islam faith.



You can say that to begin with but, as I explained above, one is either obeying the commandments or not obeying the commandments. When one is obeying the commandments s/he is actually Muslim (muslim). But when not obeying the commandments or rejecting the commandments s/he is not acting at the time as a muslim. In the latter case, the person is not a muslim technically and his actions are outside the domain of “islam” (obeying G-d’s commands).


I think it is a difficult issue to understand for someone who is in a collective religion and in genealogically collective group of people. For example in Christianity people sin because it is in our blood since Adam sinned. The same goes for Jewish people; they are assumed to be blessed because Abraham or Israel was blessed. Nothing can be further away from the truth because Jewish people have killed other Jewish people for not obeying the commandments as their personal actions. And that is the teachings of the Qur’an; each person bears only his/her own burden and not the burden of others’ actions.


My brother in Kashmir is a member of a Welfare Trust in the local community. People donate to the Trust and money collected is then used to help poor people in the community. I have written an article in their magazine to let the people be aware of the main problems in that society. My brother has also written an article. The two articles concentrate on “obeying G-d’s commands” and education. I think if you study the Qur’an and then look at the problems in countries like Pakistan, even Arab world, you would find that many of the so called Muslims are not obeying the commandments and are/or not educated. This is not because of Islam there but because of lack of Islam there.


I trust that this answers your questions. Please feel free to ask if anything is still not clear in my answers.

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 22, 2012 - 3:12PM #152
Shusha
Posts: 4,790

Jul 22, 2012 -- 2:03AM, Miraj wrote:


Pakistan is not a religion.  It's a country.  Islam is not a collective faith as much as it's an individual choice and an individual relationship with God.  There is no collective presence in any place, even in Mecca, that defines Islam.  Of course, Islam has basic tenets, foundational beliefs, and obligatory practices, but it is, at its very core, a free choice.  That's why there is no such thing as a forced conversion in Islam.


Each individual chooses how and whether they practice.  Their choices are their own burden and no one else's.  The only way the faults of anyone else are my burden is if I willfully mislead them, which is why I am free to reject accusations that the sins of another Muslim are my responsibility.  What someone does in Pakistan, Britain, Indonesia, the WB or Timbuktu doesn't reflect on my practice, nor does it obligate me to take on their guilt.  


I've noticed that no one has ever tried to offer me the brownie points of "good" Muslims, but they do try to taint me with the deficient acts of "bad" Muslims.


For some reason, non-Muslims continually insist that they can find a collective entity, be it Arabs, Pakistan, Saudis, clerics, Muslim history, whatever, that will define Islam, its tenets, its practice, its worthiness for all Muslims.  But, there is no such thing.  When the Day of Judgment is upon us, Ibn's life will not weigh on mine, nor mine on his.  God won't judge me by the acts of the terrorists of 9/11, the politics of Hamas, or the beliefs of the Taliban.  He will judge me for me and I wish others would, too.





Miraj,


It seems as though you entirely misunderstand me.  Let me clarify.  I formulate an opinion about you based only on what you, yourself, say.  I formulate an opinion about Ibn based on what he says, and so on. I do not base my opinion of you on the politics of Hamas, though I do base my opinion of you on your RESPONSES to the politics of Hamas, including those things you are silent on and the threads you intentionally (it appears) derail.


It is when I attempt to formulate an opinion about Islam that I look at the collective.  I base my opinion on those who post here, on things I read on the internet, on my real life interactionsn with Muslims who I may or may not discuss religion or politics with.  I believe it is perfectly valid to look at Islam and ask what it means to follow it.  Yes, I realize that there are individualities as there are in every faith.  But what are the commonalities?  What does it mean to be a muslim?  What are G-d's commandments, accordiing to muslims?  How can I tell the difference between those who are extremists in their belief in Islam and those who are simply wrong about what Islam says?

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2 years ago  ::  Aug 08, 2012 - 8:07AM #153
sallum
Posts: 551

Jul 22, 2012 -- 3:12PM, Shusha wrote:


Jul 22, 2012 -- 2:03AM, Miraj wrote:


Pakistan is not a religion.  It's a country.  Islam is not a collective faith as much as it's an individual choice and an individual relationship with God.  There is no collective presence in any place, even in Mecca, that defines Islam.  Of course, Islam has basic tenets, foundational beliefs, and obligatory practices, but it is, at its very core, a free choice.  That's why there is no such thing as a forced conversion in Islam.


Each individual chooses how and whether they practice.  Their choices are their own burden and no one else's.  The only way the faults of anyone else are my burden is if I willfully mislead them, which is why I am free to reject accusations that the sins of another Muslim are my responsibility.  What someone does in Pakistan, Britain, Indonesia, the WB or Timbuktu doesn't reflect on my practice, nor does it obligate me to take on their guilt.  


I've noticed that no one has ever tried to offer me the brownie points of "good" Muslims, but they do try to taint me with the deficient acts of "bad" Muslims.


For some reason, non-Muslims continually insist that they can find a collective entity, be it Arabs, Pakistan, Saudis, clerics, Muslim history, whatever, that will define Islam, its tenets, its practice, its worthiness for all Muslims.  But, there is no such thing.  When the Day of Judgment is upon us, Ibn's life will not weigh on mine, nor mine on his.  God won't judge me by the acts of the terrorists of 9/11, the politics of Hamas, or the beliefs of the Taliban.  He will judge me for me and I wish others would, too.





Miraj,


It seems as though you entirely misunderstand me.  Let me clarify.  I formulate an opinion about you based only on what you, yourself, say.  I formulate an opinion about Ibn based on what he says, and so on. I do not base my opinion of you on the politics of Hamas, though I do base my opinion of you on your RESPONSES to the politics of Hamas, including those things you are silent on and the threads you intentionally (it appears) derail.


It is when I attempt to formulate an opinion about Islam that I look at the collective.  I base my opinion on those who post here, on things I read on the internet, on my real life interactionsn with Muslims who I may or may not discuss religion or politics with.  I believe it is perfectly valid to look at Islam and ask what it means to follow it.  Yes, I realize that there are individualities as there are in every faith.  But what are the commonalities?  What does it mean to be a muslim?  What are G-d's commandments, accordiing to muslims?  How can I tell the difference between those who are extremists in their belief in Islam and those who are simply wrong about what Islam says?




you said ; what does it mean to be a Muslem?


Islam is with two parts.


Iman ( Belief)


Submission.


Iman (Arabic: إيمان‎) is an Arabic term which denotes certitude to the unseen. In Islamic theology, it refers to the inner aspect of the religion, and denotes a believer's faith in the metaphysical realities of Islam. [1][2] The term Iman has been delineated in both the Quran [3] as well as the famous Hadith of Gabriel.


Submission;


Pillars of the religion") are five basic acts in Sunni Islam, considered obligatory by believers. These are summarized in the famous Hadith of Gabriel.[1][2][3][4]


 


 Why Islam? Top of this is;  to know GOD (ALLAH)  to believe with the unseen.


 That would be  by self questing about all natural inventions around and into the universal including ourselves.


I can take the concept of TRACKs, Track always indicates about its causer.


  After that the Obligations will come through to confirm the Belief.


 Life is with think and works no use to split them off.


Then TEST will jump on to spare the testimonies each with his result of test.


Mercy Of Allah Almighty will have great perform here and hereafter. Only under the umbrella of monotheist.


Just try to think this way;


All the incredible  man's body and memories is ONLY for 70years of age?  sometimes less than that.


Are the nerves which its long as to surround the earth is for only that age?  


   Are those equal, those who know and those who do not know?


 What! Do those who seek after evil ways think that We shall hold them equal with those who believe and do righteous deeds,- that equal will be their life and their death?


And so on.


 


sallum

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2 years ago  ::  Aug 13, 2012 - 6:16PM #154
sallum
Posts: 551

Jul 22, 2012 -- 3:12PM, Shusha wrote:


Jul 22, 2012 -- 2:03AM, Miraj wrote:


 





Miraj,


It seems as though you entirely misunderstand me.  Let me clarify.  I formulate an opinion about you based only on what you, yourself, say.  I formulate an opinion about Ibn based on what he says, and so on. I do not base my opinion of you on the politics of Hamas, though I do base my opinion of you on your RESPONSES to the politics of Hamas, including those things you are silent on and the threads you intentionally (it appears) derail.


It is when I attempt to formulate an opinion about Islam that I look at the collective.  I base my opinion on those who post here, on things I read on the internet, on my real life interactionsn with Muslims who I may or may not discuss religion or politics with.  I believe it is perfectly valid to look at Islam and ask what it means to follow it.  Yes, I realize that there are individualities as there are in every faith.  But what are the commonalities?  What does it mean to be a muslim?  What are G-d's commandments, accordiing to muslims?  How can I tell the difference between those who are extremists in their belief in Islam and those who are simply wrong about what Islam says?


--


There is Iman and there is Islam,


Iman is Islamic Belief, and is as Allah is the proper name of God.


HE is the ONLY GOD, Creator of universe and is the judge of humankind, HE IS unique and inherently ONE All- merciful and omnipotent.


Islam is as humble submission to Allah’s Will, Divine Ordinances and Commandments is the pivot of the Muslim faith.


The Moslems Belief is subject of the Unseen stage. As all what Muslims does Believe are siege with the Unseen;


Each Muslim believes in Allah, His angels, His books, last day, and His apostles.


Those are the Belief’s Pillars.


Allah is with unseen, so are the Angels, Holy books, last day, and Allah’s apostles.


Although the Muslims were with Mohammed SAW they never see the Angle Gabriel each time of the reveals. But they believe him so.


 The Five Pillars of Islam  


  They are (1) the shahada (Islamic creed), (2) daily prayers (salah), (3) almsgiving (zakāt), (4) fasting during Ramadan (sawm), and (5) the pilgrimage to Mecca (hajj) at least once in a lifetime.[5



These deeds must lead its behavior to Iman (the Belief) step by step to become strong and stronger by time.


The fruitful, Benefits, and the “sweet” of these deeds together with the communication with the previous Believers (people know about Allah) all these would help new and all convertors to have their Faith with fixed and strongest toward their heart..


One session, and one in a row and one by one, those with time and good stage will push the stand of the Belief stronger and stronger.   


This Verse does Explain the two portions;


49:14 (Picktall) The wandering Arabs say: We believe. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts. Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


 So first Islam is (submission) then will come the Iman (Belief) as the trust will start with physical experience this will push firmly the Mentality steps of knowledge of the "unseen" portion pushed ahead forward.


  The word Islam as a NOUN is Belong to the Religion with its two parts (Belief and Submission)


 And the word Islam as an ADJECTIVE is belong to the Believers’ adherences and is one part of religion. (Submission).


Muslims are with Belief and Submission. They may act both ways at the time they with obedience (do and do not do) and they at the time with Believes (unseen) and  also are at both ways in a time..



Something like one state to the United States its citizen is American citizen @ both ways.


so we have to point to Muslim in which part he with, then we would understand the Issue.


Hope this will help


 


sallum





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2 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2012 - 12:36PM #155
LeahOne
Posts: 16,566

"The same goes for Jewish people; they are assumed to be blessed because Abraham or Israel was blessed."


 


Ibn - I do not believe this, nor was I ever taught anything like this - nor have I ever heard of anything like this.  It ABSOLUTELY is not 'assumed' by Jews that we are so blessed - just read through any Jewish prayer book!!!


 


We acknowledge YHVH's blessings upon our ancestors *as we pray that we ourselves may act so as to be viewed by YHVH as also worthy of such blessings ourselves*


It is the exact opposite of what you have stated above.  You don't need to 'disprove' it, because Jews don't believe it in the first place.  Just like all the commotion everyone else BUT us Jews makes about the phrase 'chosen' - it is not to us what 'you-all' keep insisting it is!

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2 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2012 - 8:22PM #156
Dostojevsky
Posts: 7,857

"It is when I attempt to formulate an opinion about Islam that I look at the collective.  I base my opinion on those who post here, on things I read on the internet, on my real life interactionsn with Muslims who I may or may not discuss religion or politics with.  I believe it is perfectly valid to look at Islam and ask what it means to follow it.  Yes, I realize that there are individualities as there are in every faith.  But what are the commonalities?  What does it mean to be a muslim?  What are G-d's commandments, accordiing to muslims?  How can I tell the difference between those who are extremists in their belief in Islam and those who are simply wrong about what Islam says?"


You can only get a vague idea about a religion through other people. They can only tell you what they understand. To really know the difference you need to read Koran yourself.


It is like judging Christianity by observing Christians, or judging Judaism by observing Jews.

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2 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2012 - 11:45PM #157
Ibn
Posts: 5,009

Aug 17, 2012 -- 12:36PM, LeahOne wrote:


"The same goes for Jewish people; they are assumed to be blessed because Abraham or Israel was blessed."


Ibn - I do not believe this, nor was I ever taught anything like this - nor have I ever heard of anything like this.  It ABSOLUTELY is not 'assumed' by Jews that we are so blessed - just read through any Jewish prayer book!!!


O.K. I accept that you do not believe it that way, which means not all Jewish people believe it that way.


My comment was based on what JAstor had told us a few years ago on this board. It was not my own view. My personal view is not the same.


Aug 17, 2012 -- 12:36PM, LeahOne wrote:

We acknowledge YHVH's blessings upon our ancestors *as we pray that we ourselves may act so as to be viewed by YHVH as also worthy of such blessings ourselves*


That is my personal view too. We have here exactly the same belief. I can't understand why Jewish people and Muslims are not thinking that they are so close to each other. 


Aug 17, 2012 -- 12:36PM, LeahOne wrote:

It is the exact opposite of what you have stated above.  You don't need to 'disprove' it, because Jews don't believe it in the first place.  Just like all the commotion everyone else BUT us Jews makes about the phrase 'chosen' - it is not to us what 'you-all' keep insisting it is!



What are we insisting about the phrase 'chosen'?

You will be surprised to know how we really view the "chosen" people. I can explain in some detail if you would like me to do so.


Peace


Ibn

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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2 years ago  ::  Aug 18, 2012 - 12:00AM #158
Ibn
Posts: 5,009

Aug 17, 2012 -- 8:22PM, Dostojevsky wrote:


"It is when I attempt to formulate an opinion about Islam that I look at the collective.  I base my opinion on those who post here, on things I read on the internet, on my real life interactionsn with Muslims who I may or may not discuss religion or politics with.  I believe it is perfectly valid to look at Islam and ask what it means to follow it.  Yes, I realize that there are individualities as there are in every faith.  But what are the commonalities?  What does it mean to be a muslim?  What are G-d's commandments, accordiing to muslims?  How can I tell the difference between those who are extremists in their belief in Islam and those who are simply wrong about what Islam says?"


You can only get a vague idea about a religion through other people. They can only tell you what they understand. To really know the difference you need to read Koran yourself.


It is like judging Christianity by observing Christians, or judging Judaism by observing Jews.



The above 3 questions in bold are the most important questions to know the answers of if one is to understand anything about muslims and islam.


I intend to come back to answer these questions but can anyone else (muslim or non-muslim) answer them before I do?

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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