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Switch to Forum Live View How this world will come to an end
2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 12:03AM #21
Oeste
Posts: 3,405

Jun 20, 2012 -- 7:58PM, Theo wrote:


Ed... trust me, they're not right about much of anything. Practically everything they teach is part of an anti-Christian dynamic... namely, if Christians believe it, it has to be wrong and the truth must be something else. 


~ Theophilus





That about sums them up.


Just remember...whatever they believe is truth now wasn't what they believed was truth before, and whatever they believe is truth tomorrow, won't be what they believe is truth now.


Newt even addresses this on a separate thread..."Jehovah Witnesses joy in our ever changing beliefs". But just because they have joy in ever changing beliefs now, does not mean they will have joy in thier ever changing beliefs tomorrow...

Never argue with stupid people. They will drag
you down to their level and then beat you with
experience ~ Mark Twain

If you are neutral on situations of injustice
you have chosen the side of the oppressor ~
Desmond Tutu
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 1:58AM #22
Ed_3
Posts: 500

Jun 20, 2012 -- 10:26PM, Newtonian wrote:


Jun 20, 2012 -- 3:29AM, Ed_3 wrote:


Jun 18, 2012 -- 11:29AM, Knowsnothing wrote:

First, I'll respond to Newtonian. I think I saw that movie a while back. It was pretty cool...What I find particularly disgusting about those accounts in the bible, is that god practically dances on the graves of the destroyed. You as a human would never think of such a repulsive act. It's disrespectful, and I guess I'm just expecting at least a better attitude from one who calls himself god.



I agree with Knowsnothing. The aliens in TDTESS never reveled over the fact that they were going to destroy humans on earth to rid the planet of the corruption caused by them. However, in the Bible, Jehovah revels over the fact that he is going to destroy humans off the face of the earth.




False Ed - you were not aware of 2 Peter 3:9?   I don't know where  you are getting those false ideas - but you should be more careful about falsely accusing God.



Newtonian, perhaps 'reveling' was too strong of a word. However, the scripture that I had in mind when I said that was Jeremiah 25:33:

And those slain by Jehovah will certainly come to be in that day from one end of the earth clear to the other end of the earth. They will not be bewailed, neither will they be gathered up or be buried. As manure on the surface of the ground they will become.’


Also, I would be curious to know what scriptures that Knowsnothing had in mind when he said that Jehovah practically dances on the graves of the destroyed.


Jun 20, 2012 -- 10:26PM, Newtonian wrote:


Also, the aliens were going to destoy ALL humans  - quite different from Revelation 11:18 where God is going to destroy those who are destroying the earth - if they don't change.


Helen's pleading "we could change" is exactly what Jehovah wants - the plea when I watched the movie brought tears to my eyes because it is precisely why we preach the good news of God's kingdom - we feel as strongly as Jehovah does wanting all to change - which is what Helen pleaded to Klatu in the movie - and why ultimately Klatu gave his life for man - again reminding me of what Jesus has actually done!


We are currently reading Lamentations in our weekly Bible reading, and I noted still another verse showing Jehovah's personality,to wit:


(Lamentations 3:33) . . .For not out of his own heart has he afflicted or does he grieve the sons of men.


What a wonderful thing to truly get to know Jehovah's heart - and his love!



Newtonian, I think that's interesting how some scriptures paint a certain picture of God, while other scriptures seem to paint a different picture of God.


And an example of this is what we were discussing about Genesis 19 concerning how God felt that he had to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them because those cities were suppose to have been so wicked. And Lot's sons-in-law were destroyed with the cities also...simply because they didn't heed a last minute warning...for which they had no proof of...even though they otherwise didn't seem to qualify for destruction.


Plus, Newtonian, you did not do a good job in defending yours and the Watchtower's point of view on this matter.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 3:05AM #23
Ed_3
Posts: 500

Jun 21, 2012 -- 1:58AM, Ed_3 wrote:


Newtonian, I think that's interesting how some scriptures paint a certain picture of God, while other scriptures seem to paint a different picture of God.



Also, going back to the OP, no one ever did explain 2 Samuel 24:11-17 to me.(But these sheepwhat have they done?)

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 10:24AM #24
Knowsnothing
Posts: 1,150

To clarify my statements 'reveling' and god 'dancing on the graves' of his adversaries, here are some texts that display the callousness of it all.



(Revelation 19:17, 18) . . .I saw also an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice and said to all the birds that fly in midheaven: “Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God, 18 that YOU may eat the fleshy parts of kings and the fleshy parts of military commanders and the fleshy parts of strong men and the fleshy parts of horses and of those seated upon them, and the fleshy parts of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great.”



(Ezekiel 39:17-20) 17 “And as regards you, O son of man, this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Say to the birds of every sort of wing and to all the wild beasts of the field: “Collect yourselves together and come. Gather yourselves together all around to my sacrifice, which I am sacrificing for YOU, a great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel. And YOU will certainly eat flesh and drink blood. 18 The flesh of mighty ones YOU will eat, and the blood of the chieftains of the earth YOU will drink, rams, young male sheep, and he-goats, young bulls, the fatlings of Ba′shan all of them. 19 And YOU will be certain to eat fat to satisfaction and to drink blood to drunkenness, from my sacrifice that I will sacrifice for YOU.”’ 20 “‘And YOU must get satisfied at my table on horses and charioteers, mighty persons and all sorts of warriors,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.


(Psalms 2:4,5 NIV) The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
    the Lord scoffs at them.
He rebukes them in his anger
    and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,


(Romans 12:19) 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”d]">[d] says the Lord.


(Exodus 15:3) The Lord is a warrior;
    the Lord is his name.






Christians love to speak of god's love and mercy.  All I see is pettiness, unjustified wrath and anger.  The omnipotent, the eternal cannot devise another way to deal with his 'adversaries'? Why does he have to resort to violence?  Do you realize all the other powerful acts god could perform that would 1.) prevent further violence and 2.) made it patently known that indeed he is god, and not some fantasy, ancient, tribal deity?


In doing so, he would be what I consider a truly great being and he would leave no doubt in anyone's mind as to who he is.  There would be no confusion in the world as to his identity.



For bible god, it's god's way or the highway.  The highway ain't pretty.  Get prepared to get slaughtered and spread about like feces.  The bible's words, not mine.


P.S. look up the Skeptics Anotated Bible on Google, or the Evil Bible.  They give another point of view on the bible, justifying all I have written here.  Thankfully, we don't need to worry such an entity exists, because such cruelty defies reason.


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 6:00PM #25
Newtonian
Posts: 12,196

Knowsnothing - Ed has noted after noting verses you quoted and verses I quoted that the Bible seems to paint God as you view him and as we view him.   He has a point, though, in depth Biblical study shows a consistent, not contradictory, personality for Jehovah.


Jehovah's Witnesses know this - it is why we love Jehovah with all our hearts and souls - as Jesus showed was the greatest commandment in the Bible (Matthew 22:37-40), the second greatest being that we love our neighbors.


Of course, if we believed as you do, we would not serve God - who would want to serve a cruel, unloving God?


I guess you have not joined us of late in our weekly Bible reading - thus you did not note Lamentations 3:21 we read this week, for example - that it is NOT in God's heart to bring calamity.


Clearly you do not accept what 2 Peter 3:9, which is a cf to Lam.3:21 in our reference Bible, says - that God's desire is that none be destroyed but all attain to repentance.


Perhaps you do not even realize that is one reason Armageddon did not come by 1975 - see the context of 2 Peter 3:9 concerning perceived "slowness" on God's part.


Many scientists realize, and the movie we discussed notes, earth is at the tipping point - in fact, if God does not bring to ruin those ruining the earth, then earth will be destroyed by man - and I assure you, that type of destruction will not be only of the wicked!


You think Jehovah is not hurt at heart over this?   Think again - try to get to know God by listening to his loyal Witnesses!   


(Genesis 6:6) And Jehovah felt regrets that he had made men in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart.


And learn the lesson Jonah learned (see chapters 3 & 4 of Jonah).

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 6:16PM #26
Newtonian
Posts: 12,196

Ed - I did not claim that Sodom had the same warning Jesus foretells man will have before the end comes (Matthew 24:14; Mark 13:10).


Yes, Jehovah's Witnesses do clear Jehovah of the many reproaches various posters bring on Him - but Jesus is the greatest Witness (Revelation 1:5).


You should listen to Jehovah's loyal Witnesses who praise Jehovah for his love and his personality.


You should also listen to Jesus before concluding what the ultimate judgment is for those in Sodom:


(Matthew 11:20-24) . . .Then he started to reproach the cities in which most of his powerful works had taken place, because they did not repent: 21 “Woe to you, Cho·ra′zin! Woe to you, Beth·sa′i·da! because if the powerful works had taken place in Tyre and Si′don that took place in YOU, they would long ago have repented in sackcloth and ashes. 22 Consequently I say to YOU, It will be more endurable for Tyre and Si′don on Judgment Day than for YOU. 23 And you, Ca·per′na·um, will you perhaps be exalted to heaven? Down to Ha′des you will come; because if the powerful works that took place in you had taken place in Sod′om, it would have remained until this very day. 24 Consequently I say to YOU people, It will be more endurable for the land of Sod′om on Judgment Day than for you.”


Note please that while those in Capernaum were not worthy of the heavenly calling, they are not judged worthy of Gehenna either - rather they are (as a group) in hades, not Gehenna.


Remember, Christendom's teachings about hades are false - they do paint God as cruel.   Jesus revealed in Revelation 20:13,14 that those in hades are dead (hence are not being tormented) and that all in hades are released (opposite to what Christendom teaches).


And what will those in hades be brought back to - the opposite again of what Christendom teaches for those in hades - they will be in paradise, as Jesus also assured the evildoer executed at his side.


Of course, if you listen to those who paint God as cruel, you may join them in condemning God, or worse, serving a cruel God because of his cruelty.


However, if you listen to Jehovah's loyal Witnesses, your heart will be filled with love for Jehovah and for all!


But its your choice - all we can do is witness as loyal Witnesses of Jehovah, our loving Creator!


 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 6:21PM #27
Kemmer
Posts: 16,654


I will pick this one for starters:



(1 Thessalonians 5:1-6) . . .Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, YOU need nothing to be written to YOU. 2 For YOU yourselves know quite well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. 3 Whenever it is that they are saying: "Peace and security!" then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape. 4 But YOU, brothers, YOU are not in darkness, so that that day should overtake YOU as it would thieves, 5 for YOU are all sons of light and sons of day. We belong neither to night nor to darkness. 6 So, then, let us not sleep on as the rest do, but let us stay awake and keep our senses.


Comments anyone?


Will, for example, the UN appear to succeed once they expose religion as a major obstacle to peace - as most religions are not a force for peace?



What fresh nonsense is this?!  Just how many nominal Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc, UN members are going too vote for some stupid exposé, which implies everyone would be much happier if the UN got rid of religion!


You should listen to Jehovah's loyal Witnesses who praise Jehovah for his love and his personality.



Yup.  The JWs are your only hope to save your worthless, Satan-worshipping skin.


 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 7:30PM #28
Newtonian
Posts: 12,196

Hi Kemmer! - I missed you - how are you?


So how do you propose all suffering be brought to an end?   See my new thread on this - but if you post on it please try to post something positive or beneficial.


I consider religion to be one of the causes of needless suffering and death in this world - and religions backing of wars, or even inciting wars being among the reasons.   What do you think?


Our newest article also shows we do not know who will be among the leaders in that final cry of peace and security.   New to me, and I think to us, is the possibility religious leaders may join in this cry of peace and security!


See the actual articles should you choose to download the issue.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 10:20PM #29
Oeste
Posts: 3,405

Jun 21, 2012 -- 6:00PM, Newtonian wrote:


Perhaps you do not even realize that is one reason Armageddon did not come by 1975 - see the context of 2 Peter 3:9 concerning perceived "slowness" on God's part.




Newt, the reason Armageddon didn't come in 1975, or 18-something, or 1914, or 1925 or 1943 or any of the other numerous dates set by the Watchtower, is not due to God being "slow", but due to the Watchtower's false prophecies.


Only a truly arrogant Organization would blame their false prophesies on God.


Never argue with stupid people. They will drag
you down to their level and then beat you with
experience ~ Mark Twain

If you are neutral on situations of injustice
you have chosen the side of the oppressor ~
Desmond Tutu
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 11:51PM #30
Kemmer
Posts: 16,654


So how do you propose all suffering be brought to an end?... if you post on it please try to post something positive or beneficial.



Personal suffering ends at death--we presume, because no one has ever returned from thence with a report.  There will always be those who suffer, physically and mentally, and since I do not subscribe to your peculiar vision of "eternity" I do not foresee the ending of suffering any time soon.


I consider religion to be one of the causes of needless suffering and death in this world - and religions backing of wars, or even inciting wars being among the reasons.   What do you think?



In the case of wannabe retro Islamists homesick for the 10th century, yes; but I cannot think of a single Western nation which cares enough about its or other's religions enough to shoot somebody over it. 

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