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Switch to Forum Live View Why Such a Toxic Relationship For So Long?
2 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2012 - 1:23AM #41
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,786

Jun 23, 2012 -- 7:24PM, Kingdom357 wrote:


I can't make it any clearer.  According to the Bible Yeshua was sent to Jews.  Yeshua never heard the word Christian because there were no Christians in His day.  Please don't tell me you don't know if He ever lived, that's to much of a stretch. 




The new testament is exclusively christian. Made for christians by christians. The Jewish holy writings do not say anything about a Jesus or Yeshua.


He is not for the Jewish people.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2012 - 12:23PM #42
LeahOne
Posts: 16,402

Jun 24, 2012 -- 7:50PM, Kingdom357 wrote:


Abraham was not the beginning of Judaism, he was the beginning of a way of life.  G-d's way!  Judaism is a man  made religion.  It has drastically been altered by man to a watered down version of what it originally was, for man's convenience. 





Those are your opinions, Kingdom.  The worth of those opinions to a Jew is based on the giver's knowledge of Judaism and their compassion.  Which amounts to exactly ZERO in this instance. 


Since you have never read a 'kosher' translation of the Tanakh, nor any Jewish commentary nor studies based upon it, you have ZERO way of knowing what's actually part of Judaism and what's not - let alone where & when it may have first appeared.


Judaism *IS* a way of life and not a 'go-to-temple-once-a-week' religion.  We know that. 


And as far as the insistence that it's been 'drastically altered':  one would have to know what Judaism in Abraham's day was, as well as what Judaism represented at various points in the past, to be able to know that.


 One would also have to understand - as you do not - that Judaism was never intended to be a static set form.  Otherwise YHVH wouldn't have imparted Talmud to Moshe along with the Written Teachings.


I hope that helps you clear up some of oyur many misunderstandings, Kingdom : ))


 


 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2012 - 12:59PM #43
ffb
Posts: 2,223

Jun 24, 2012 -- 7:50PM, Kingdom357 wrote:

Abraham was not the beginning of Judaism, he was the beginning of a way of life.  G-d's way!  Judaism is a man  made religion.  It has drastically been altered by man to a watered down version of what it originally was, for man's convenience. 


You seem to have a few errors here, and some baseline misconceptions. Some others have pointed out a few of the flaws so I won't rehash all of them. I'd like to address the underlying problem -- you clearly deny Judaism's validity as a divine, current and active religion. Some of this comes from your need to replace Judaism with your idea of the "right" way to think and feel. You can't have a replacement if the original is still valid. Part of it comes, probably, from serious lack of knowledge or understanding.


I can't fix the first problem because I don't care what you believe. Feel free to pursue whatever theology floats your boat. But the second can be dealt with. I implore you -- ask questions. recognize that, if so many people from so many different iterations of Judaism are all trying to tell you that you are in error, maybe, just maybe, you are in error. You can own up and fix that by asking instead of assuming, imputing and insulting.


If you goal is not to learn, and this is evidenced by a refusal to ask ("discuss") and a penchant for baseless claims and criticisms, then I would have to say that your purpose on this board is less to hold conversations and more to persuade people to abandon their beliefs. This would amount to proselytizing and would be, I expect, against the TOU.


I ask only one thing if your goal is do proselytize. Just think about how you would feel and/or respond if someone went on to a board dedicated to a discussion of your beliefs and said "________ is a man  made religion.  It has drastically been altered by man to a watered down version of what it originally was, for man's convenience. "

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2012 - 4:01PM #44
wohali
Posts: 10,227

Kingdom:


"I can't make it any clearer.  According to the Bible Yeshua was sent to Jews."


The Bible has no relevance for Jews, or Indians. How's that for clarity?


"Yeshua never heard the word Christian because there were no Christians in His day."


Jesus, if he did exist, also never heard the word "Bible", because people living in Palestine in the First Century spoke Aramaic.


"Please don't tell me you don't know if He ever lived, that's to much of a stretch."


Streching is good for you.

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 03, 2012 - 7:36AM #45
NahumS
Posts: 1,764

To get back to the original discussion...


I think that some of the toxicity comes from the claim on the covenental relationship.


If Christians beleive that they are somehow grafted onto the covenental relationship between Abraham and God as an add-on to the Jewish people, then I have no problem with that. It's their privilege to believe that - in any case, as a Jew I believe that righteous gentiles have a share in the world to come, which is really not very different. I am happy that our religious heritage provides spiritual nourishment for others as well.


But - if they believe that they have supplanted the Jewish people, that the Jews are somehow disinherited from God's blessings since we do not accept the Christian messiah - then we have a problem. If you add the charge of Christ-killing as a guilt that all Jews bear, then we have a problem. If Christians see Judaism as an inferior brand with an essential ingredient missing  - then we do indeed have a problem.


AS I mentioned before, many churches have repudiated these notions and attitudes. The problem is that they are so totally ingrained in some people that generations of re-education will be necessary to uproot them.


I think that this is the subtext of much of the anti-Israel attitudes of some of the larger mainline churches. A denial of God's living covenant with the Jewish people pulls out the foundation of the right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel. Then come the charges of exclusionism and exclusivity. Add the general leftist dislike of nation-states and the popularity of the Palestinian cause - and you have fullblown toxic anti-Israel rhetoric.

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 03, 2012 - 11:22AM #46
river8101
Posts: 5,561

Nahum,


Great post.  I have known Kingdom (also Avie, and realif)  thru many Forums/Debates on Belief net, including "Archaeology, History, and the Bible", "Messianic Judaism", and "Judaism", the last for which she was banished for writing terrible remarks about Jews and as to why Christians had the right to throw them out of their homes, their countries, and persecute them.  According to Kingdom, they deserved everything they got. She has never denied her feelings about that. She wrote under the name Avie, and has admitted that was her former name on the Messianic Jewish forum. You may find that post if you check back at MJ.  If not, I'll be glad to send them to you, from direct copy, number, date, etc.


Since she was banned from a few forums for her terrible insults and lies about Jews, she has now changed some of her writings to simply her NT beliefs about Jesus Christ, whom she calls Yeshua. Now she is blaming Jews for not believing in the writings of the her  Christian New Testament.  That bible is a Christian bible, and obviously those are her beliefs, her religion, not ours.   Jews have never used the NT as part of their religion!  It has never been part of their religion, nor their comfort, strength, or happiness. 


Thru the ages Christianity has used horrific methods trying to force Jews to believe in Jesus, and worship him, but many refused, even tho they were punished for it by the Church, the State, the Monarchy and the general population. The true reason they suffered so greatly in most Christian countries was because they refused to convert.   The Christian's disgusting writings about them as criminals, thieves and murderers was invented, and sold to a population of Christians in order to get the Christian population to hate and fear Jews and not be bothered by Christian persecution of them.  Such incidents are often found in anti-Semitic writings on various internet forums, Neo- Nazi forums,  and anti-Semitic books, pamphlets, usually Christian or Muslim.   Avie read those phony historical writings and put them on a Jewish forum and other Discussion groups.   Kingdom/Avie may keep her posts on other forums.   BUT, it doesn't belong here at Discuss Judaism, as this is not a forum to slam Jews, or correct names because they don't agree with her beliefs.  That Jews should believe in the NT's Jesus/Yeshua, or that we are wrong and unlearned is too ridiculous, and is not part of Judaism, never was, and doesn't belong here.  I hope she is told that by B Net and their moderators.

“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 05, 2012 - 11:52AM #47
NahumS
Posts: 1,764

River - I think that in many cases, Jews were forced to suffer in the middle ages is because Christian beliefs of the time asserted that Jews were being punshed for rejecting the Christian messiah.
Had Jews lived comfortably and prospered, these beliefs would have been shown to be false. So they made them come true. 


This is why the Vatican's fairly recent recognition of Israel is such an amazing development. It indicates a whole change of thinking. They have basically accepted that the covenant between God and the Jewish people is alive, and we are still recipients of His favor. This is an about-face, although it would be hard for them to admit it.


Many churches have ceased targetting Jews in their missionary activities. They recognize that, for Jews, Judaism is the best choice. There are plenty of unchurched gentiles to preach to.


There were, and probably always will be, both anti-semites and philo-semites among Christians. Today the latter are in the majority.


I have met Evangelicals that have impressed me with their genuine love of the Jewish people - and who stay far away from missionizing. Their support of israel is heartening and valuable. I remain alert, but respectful.


I think that we have to build all the bridges that we can and accept all the friends that we can - because we need them. I think that this is true in reference to Muslims as well.


Ultimately, our vision of a redeemed future is confluent: a world at peace, with humanity serving our common Creator in righteousness. We can afford to leave the details to Him. With this vision to inspire us, we can work together to advance it, while maintaining our own religious heritage and identity and respecting that of each other.


Yes - we have a history - and we must remain vigilant against those who speak sweetly and have something altogether different in their hearts. But it is perilous and mistaken to think that they all hate us or want to convert us. The reality of the situation is much more complex.


I also think that living in Israel lets me be more "liberal" about Jewish-Christian relations. I do not live among Christians and my (and my children's) Jewish identity is very strong, and expresses itself in much of what I do - where I live, my language, my culture, etc. I don't have to define myself by what I'm not, so I can be more open to others - and open on my own terms. Being part of a Jewish majority gives me a different perspective. It allows me to reject any contact with non-Jews who do not respect me as a Jew.

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 08, 2012 - 5:09PM #48
river8101
Posts: 5,561

According to Kingdom's writings, it is obvious that her views come from the Christian bible or the NT.  What Kingdom doesn't understand is that her New Testament bible is not part of Jewish teachings, or the Jewish bible,  any more than the Gita of Hinduism, or the Qu'ran of Muslim writings is part of her Christian bible.  So everytime she quotes things about Jesus being a Jew, and Jews should accept him, she is getting it from the Christian bible, which is not part of Jewish scripture.  


There is no mention of a Jesus or a Yeshua in the Hebrew bible; the TaNaKh.   The New Testament is not part of the Jewish bible.  It is, therefore, a holy book only to Christians, but not to non Christians in the rest of the world, though "some" may consider some parts of it worthy of note.  Even though Jews are mentioned in the NT, and Jesus himself is referred to as a Jew, that doesn't change anything because the NT about the Jesus stories have never been part of the Jewish bible or part of any of their other holy books.

“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 09, 2012 - 8:10PM #49
wohali
Posts: 10,227

Releaf, no one is "trying to get rid of you" because of what you believe. People get tired of your antics in how you express yourself.


Jews have their own beliefs, they have no reason to believe as you do. You want to practice some weird variant of Christianity and think it's real, mazel tov!


How come you're not Kingdom anymore?

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 09, 2012 - 8:40PM #50
wohali
Posts: 10,227

Releaf:


"Jews have their own beliefs, what I'm saying is they need to be shared, they should not be hidden away so people see only something they don't understand.  What's the big secret anyway?"


Why do they "need to be shared"? I have a great deal of respect for Jewish ways. But I'm an Indian, I have my own sacred ways. As an Indian, I am accutely aware of how some folks think appropriation of others beliefs is permissable.


"My antics. my dear at the age of 76 I no longer have time for antics."


Well, you certainly do exhibit then here well enough.


"Christians are wasting their time worshipping in a false religion, why can't you try to understand."


I understand that you have decided this. Lots and lots of Christians of many differing stripes I'm sure will disagree with you. I've seen the same behavor in folks who find out that they may have some Indian ancestry and suddenly want to make Indian ways fit their Christianity.


It don't work. 


"Yeshua tryed to bring God's people back to Himself, back to His teachings."


See, I believe all people are "gods people", each in their own way. Not my business how they pray, outside of a debate forum. As long as they are willing to let me follow my ways.


"You claim the Old Testament and the Torah   and Tenakh are different, you are saying this because you don't know and refuse to find out."


Yeah, I'm the one who refuses to find out /S.


"As for getting rid of me. speak for yourself. twice I've been removed from this site my friend, twice for simply telling the truth."


No one get their account deleted from Beliefnet for "telling the truth". You can stop that nonsense right now. One must deliberatly and repeatedly violate the RoC.

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