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Switch to Forum Live View Why Such a Toxic Relationship For So Long?
2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 7:13AM #11
river8101
Posts: 5,492

You would know better than me.  But I don't see the Catholic Church changing. I agree when you say that "much anti-Israel bias today is simply warmed-over antisemitism."  That is sooo true. 


Critics have accused Pope Benedict of being insensitive towards Judaism and most Jews agree. The two most prominent instances were the expansion of the use of the Tridentine Mass. In the Good Friday service, the traditional Mass includes a prayer that asks God to lift the veil so  "the Jews may be delivered from their darkness."   What crap!  This prayer has historically caused problems in  Jewish-Catholic relations, and several groups saw this disgusting revision as the same ole problem which has gone on for centuries.   In addition recently the excommunication was lifted from "Bishop" Richard Williamson an outspoken Holocaust denier. His completely absurd denial led critics to charge that the German Pope likely agreed with his views.   No change here.  It's the same ole, same ole.


“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 7:44AM #12
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

Jun 18, 2012 -- 3:42AM, NahumS wrote:


Christianity remained intolerant long after the fall of the Empire. And the Holocaust didn't happen in a vacuum. It took place in countries that had been poisoned by antisemitism for centuries.



That's why I used "empire" in the lower-case.


After the Western Roman Empire collapsed in the 5th century, it was succeeded by a host of barbarian states. The only unifying entity on the Continent was the Church, and the Church had gotten quite comfortable as an instrument of imperial power and was unwilling to give it up. The barbarian states gradually sorted themselves into kingdoms, with the Church's blessing and guidance, and the Pope revived the Roman Empire under Charlemagne in 800. The Middle Ages saw the struggle between the Emperor and the other kings against the Papacy and the Church, but the struggle was really over who would be supreme, not over the question of whether or not the two should be linked at all. Europe had inherited the imperial idea that there should be one leader and one faith, and they should be united. 


Truly "liberal" Christianity - in all senses of the word - only could appear once that bond between secular and religious power was severed. The Reformation did not sever that bond, it only made it stronger and more intolerant and Christian states started warring among themselves as well as against the heretics, the Jews, the witches, the sodomites, and everyone else who didn't fit in. 


Of course, another aspect of the Jewish Question is that Jews are not just a religious group. 


If to be Jewish was just to subscribe to the Jewish faith, then I think antisemitism would have been resolved by 18th and 19th century bourgeois revolutions as it was with the Catholic/Protestant divide. 


Instead, once the confessional wars were ended with toleration borne by necessity from exhaustion and stalemate and the dawn of the Age of Reason, the national question emerged to dominate European history for the next two centuries, and Jews didn't fit in there, either. 


And much anti-Israel bias today is simply warmed-over antisemitism.



Some, but not all. That requires careful discernment.


But we can't ignore the huge strides that Christians have made in attepmpting to atone for 2000 years of antisemitism. The Catholic Church, for one, has re-evaluated many of its attitudes towards Jews and Judaism. - and I hope that this continues.




Amen.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 8:04AM #13
river8101
Posts: 5,492

As a Jew, I don't see any changes.   Coming home on a plane last year, I was reading Constantine's Sword.  A lady sitting next to me, noticed it and said to me;  "How can you read that disgusting book? It defames the Church!!!"   I didn't know this woman, and at first didn't answer her.  She repeated herself.  I finally answered.  "It discusses what the Church has been doing to the Jews all these years?"   She then said,  "They deserved it. They killed Christ."  I got up from my seat, with the book, and reported her to the stewardess, telling her that this woman was bothering me and asked for a seat change."  The stewardess apologized, and then asked me, "What was the problem?"   I showed her the book and said, "She doesn't like my book."   Believe it or not, the stewardess frowned, and said very softly,  "Oh, I see."  She then whispered to me. "I didn't like it either."  Then " I'm really sorry, but we can't change seats, but I will speak to her."  She did.  I put the book away, and was very glad to get off that plane.  Believe me, it's still with us.


Too bad we can't change seats like we used to.  For those of you who are Jewish and think we are out of the woods, think again.  That kind of talk is baloney.   They are still taught we are an evil people.   Many believe it.  Both Catholics and Protestants.   They are still taught that we killed their Jesus, and the Christians and their Churches are all heroes.  Also, so much for Messianic Jews.  NOT!

“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 3:44PM #14
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

At the same time, I have been working with a number of African-American pastors - most of them Baptist, but one AME and another non-denominational - who just love, love, love, love, LOVE Jews and Israel. Seriously. One of them was honored by the Consul General of Israel last year.


When one of our staff members is introduced as "Rabbi," they would kiss his ring if he wore one. Our Seventh-Day Adventist coworker had him give a blessing at her wedding.


What airline did this incident take place on?


I guess the next time someone accuses you of killing Jesus, you could say "You're welcome."


The important thing, though, is that this b*tch on the plane did not wield state power. The most she could do is give you the stinkeye and say stupid things.


In other days and in other countries, she could have had you imprisoned, tortured, and executed.


Try reading a book critical of Islam on a plane in Iran!


You can't reallly do much abotu people's irrational hatreds except educate them and hope for the best.


The key is keeping their irrational hatreds from being put into force by law and the coercive power of the State.


We've done a reasonably good job of that here in the US. Jews have never been subject to arrest, imprisonment, torture, and execution for their beliefs or practices.


Does that mean that hate crimes don't happen, and that Jews aren't attacked? Of course not. But it's illegal, and the power of the state is largely on the side of protecting the innocent in this regard.


The trouble is when religious people seek to use the power of the state to implement their religious worldviews - when the church and the empire become one. Fortunately, here they are separate and we've built and maintained a pretty strong wall.


That's why the main "culture war" battlegrounds where the religious extremists are seeking to subvert our liberty is not so much in religious beliefs but in "morals," which is a codeword for "sex."


It's women and gays (and homophobia derives from mysogyny) that have the most to fear from religious extremists here.


And Orthodox Jews are for the most part on the same side as the fundamentalist Christians.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 10:43PM #15
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,900

Jun 17, 2012 -- 7:05AM, koolpoi wrote:


...Could any event in the 1st century have resulted in a more civil relationship between the faiths?




BS"D


Yeah.  If Constantine had been schooled in The Tao Te Ching then Christianity and Judaism would have both flourished side by side.  Instead Constantine chose the antagonistic separatism from nature that was taught by the Zoroastrians (of ancient Persia) as his model for Christianity and the evidence for this exists in the Christian canon.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2012 - 8:46AM #16
river8101
Posts: 5,492

Agreed.  Same with Muslims over Kashmir.  Not only did the Muslims get Pakistan and Bangladesh, but are now fighting for Kashmir.  These once Indian/Hindu nations, for thousands of years, are now Muslim, and not peaceful.  The Indians have left. Islam is the only acceptable religion in those countries, yet millions of Muslims have 'freedom of religion' in India.  My daughter in law's parents, who are Hindu, fled Pakistan, where they were born,  and settled in India in 1947 when the partition was forced on India by the Brits.  Many Muslims left India and settled in Pakistan.  Hindus fled Pakistan.  There was a huge exchange.   The Muslims may be sorry they left India now.  They had more freedom there.  Muslims still living in India are not in any hurry to leave.  They are free to practice their religion in India.  The reverse is not true.


One of my granddaughters was born in Kashmir, where the Muslims are still fighting for possession of that country as well.  She was adopted by my Indian daughter-in-law and Jewish son as a little baby lost in the tumult of war.   She's a lovely little girl.  Buns you've seen her picture on Facebook.  We love her so much.  A good Hockey player too!  They often take trips to India with both their children. 


There are 1.2 million Muslims living freely in Israel today.  How many Jews are living freely in Muslim countries?  Any?  I doubt it.  If they are, they have little freedom.  The Muslims want to drive the tiny land of Israel into the sea, yet they have eons of land all around the Middle East.   Not enough though.  Wherever they live, they want to reign.  I believe Israel must protect what land they have.

“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2012 - 9:09AM #17
river8101
Posts: 5,492

Nieciedo wrote:  "And Orthodox Jews are for the most part on the same side as the fundamentalist Christians."


OOOh, we'd better all be scared.  There are soooo many orthodox Jews!  Puleeze. NOT!  I'm sure you know vast majority of Jews in this country are not orthodox, nor even in Israel.  There is no command post that forces liberal Jews what side to vote on, nor in Israel.  Both countries have freedom to vote for whom they please.   Most Jews in this country are on the liberal side, and would have nothing in common with the vast number of fundamentalist Muslims and Christians, who've been around this world for millenniums. 

“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2012 - 9:39AM #18
river8101
Posts: 5,492

www.facebook.com/photo.php?

“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2012 - 11:00AM #19
vra
Posts: 6,322

Jun 18, 2012 -- 3:42AM, NahumS wrote:


Christianity remained intolerant long after the fall of the Empire. And the Holocaust didn't happen in a vacuum. It took place in countries that had been poisoned by antisemitism for centuries.


And much anti-Israel bias today is simply warmed-over antisemitism.


But we can't ignore the huge strides that Christians have made in attepmpting to atone for 2000 years of antisemitism. The Catholic Church, for one, has re-evaluated many of its attitudes towards Jews and Judaism. - and I hope that this continues.





What you say above is correct on all accounts, imo. 


In 1991, I was sponsored by the Holocaust Memorial Center near Detroit to go to Poland and Israel, and in Poland we met with several Catholic officials, including a priest who was directly answerable to PJPII on items dealing with anti-Semitism in Poland.  And we well know that the pope then was very sympathetic.


Even though Pope Benedict hasn't reversed these efforts, he doesn't seem to me to be all that enthusiastic about it as he's much more "old school".  It'll be interesting to see which direction the next pope will take the church.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2012 - 11:48AM #20
river8101
Posts: 5,492

When the Pope takes the cross down from Auschwitz, maybe I'll believe you.  But up till now, I don't think the leaders in the Catholic Church or the Fundies in the Protestant Church care beans about Jews or Israel.  The only reason the Fundies support Israel is because they think Jesus is coming back over there, and they want to watch the show and get saved.   Plenty of Christians either want to convert us or kill us and it's never changed.


“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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