Jun 26, 2012 -- 12:23PM, Lilwabbit wrote:

In the following, Bahá'u'lláh discusses creation having ever existed yet being preceded by God (Lawh-i-Hikmat / Tablet of Wisdom):

As regards thine assertions about the beginning of creation, this is a matter on which conceptions vary by reason of the divergences in men’s thoughts and opinions. Wert thou to assert that it hath ever existed and shall continue to exist, it would be true; or wert thou to affirm the same concept as is mentioned in the sacred Scriptures, no doubt would there be about it, for it hath been revealed by God, the Lord of the worlds. Indeed He was a hidden treasure. This is a station that can never be described nor even alluded to. And in the station of 'I did wish to make Myself known', God was, and His creation had ever existed beneath His shelter from the beginning that hath no beginning, apart from its being preceded by a Firstness which cannot be regarded as firstness and originated by a Cause inscrutable even unto all men of learning.

In the following, Bahá'u'lláh discusses the Word of God (which Bahá'ís understand as the one essence of the Manifestations of God) in the same tablet:

Know thou, moreover, that the Word of God—exalted be His glory—is higher and far superior to that which the senses can perceive, for it is sanctified from any property or substance. It transcendeth the limitations of known elements and is exalted above all the essential and recognized substances. It became manifest without any syllable or sound and is none but the Command of God which pervadeth all created things. It hath never been withheld from the world of being. It is God’s all-pervasive grace, from which all grace doth emanate. It is an entity far removed above all that hath been and shall be.

These verses, and others like these, baffle the mind. Yet there's a rhyme and reason when meditated with thought and studied together with Bahá'u'lláh's other verses on the same subject. Biased tough I am, I've read enough literature (scientific or scriptural) to state with some confidence that there's a supreme brilliance and unfathomable depth in these words which is somewhat remarkable for an unschooled Persian prisoner held in Ottoman Palestine in the 19th century.

Kind regards,

Sam

Oh dear me!

Are you telling me that the Word of God is many Persons with one Essence?

That this idea baffles the mind?

Jun 27, 2012 -- 11:36AM, Lilwabbit wrote:

Jun 27, 2012 -- 11:31AM, SeraphimR wrote:

Jun 26, 2012 -- 12:23PM, Lilwabbit wrote:

In the following, Bahá'u'lláh discusses creation having ever existed yet being preceded by God (Lawh-i-Hikmat / Tablet of Wisdom):

As regards thine assertions about the beginning of creation, this is a matter on which conceptions vary by reason of the divergences in men’s thoughts and opinions. Wert thou to assert that it hath ever existed and shall continue to exist, it would be true; or wert thou to affirm the same concept as is mentioned in the sacred Scriptures, no doubt would there be about it, for it hath been revealed by God, the Lord of the worlds. Indeed He was a hidden treasure. This is a station that can never be described nor even alluded to. And in the station of 'I did wish to make Myself known', God was, and His creation had ever existed beneath His shelter from the beginning that hath no beginning, apart from its being preceded by a Firstness which cannot be regarded as firstness and originated by a Cause inscrutable even unto all men of learning.

In the following, Bahá'u'lláh discusses the Word of God (which Bahá'ís understand as the one essence of the Manifestations of God) in the same tablet:

Know thou, moreover, that the Word of God—exalted be His glory—is higher and far superior to that which the senses can perceive, for it is sanctified from any property or substance. It transcendeth the limitations of known elements and is exalted above all the essential and recognized substances. It became manifest without any syllable or sound and is none but the Command of God which pervadeth all created things. It hath never been withheld from the world of being. It is God’s all-pervasive grace, from which all grace doth emanate. It is an entity far removed above all that hath been and shall be.

These verses, and others like these, baffle the mind. Yet there's a rhyme and reason when meditated with thought and studied together with Bahá'u'lláh's other verses on the same subject. Biased tough I am, I've read enough literature (scientific or scriptural) to state with some confidence that there's a supreme brilliance and unfathomable depth in these words which is somewhat remarkable for an unschooled Persian prisoner held in Ottoman Palestine in the 19th century.

Kind regards,

Sam

Oh dear me!

Are you telling me that the Word of God is many Persons with one Essence?

That this idea baffles the mind?

No. Nothing of the sort is even mentioned in the cited quotes. The idea that creation has always existed as a created entity under God baffles the mind. Mainly in terms of the mechanism of such an "act" of creation. Yet the idea cannot be shown to be untrue nor illogical. In fact, the Creator of Eternity is truly the Greatest of all creators.

Kind regards,

Sam

No.  It was in your commentary:

"In the following, Bahá'u'lláh discusses the Word of God (which Bahá'ís understand as the one essence of the Manifestations of God) in the same tablet:"

Jun 27, 2012 -- 3:27PM, Aka_me wrote:

Jun 27, 2012 -- 2:55PM, SeraphimR wrote:

No.  It was in your commentary:

"In the following, Bahá'u'lláh discusses the Word of God (which Bahá'ís understand as the one essence of the Manifestations of God) in the same tablet:"

it's a very complicated subject within Baha'i Cosmology...

in one sense (realm 2) all the Manifestations of God have lost self identity and are of oneness with each other and with God.

in the other sense (realm 5) they are individuals delivering a message to specific culture/era.

I'll bet it is complicated!

So not only are the Manifestations one with each other, they are one with God too.

Jun 27, 2012 -- 2:55PM, SeraphimR wrote:

Jun 27, 2012 -- 11:36AM, Lilwabbit wrote:

Jun 27, 2012 -- 11:31AM, SeraphimR wrote:

Jun 26, 2012 -- 12:23PM, Lilwabbit wrote:

In the following, Bahá'u'lláh discusses creation having ever existed yet being preceded by God (Lawh-i-Hikmat / Tablet of Wisdom):

As regards thine assertions about the beginning of creation, this is a matter on which conceptions vary by reason of the divergences in men’s thoughts and opinions. Wert thou to assert that it hath ever existed and shall continue to exist, it would be true; or wert thou to affirm the same concept as is mentioned in the sacred Scriptures, no doubt would there be about it, for it hath been revealed by God, the Lord of the worlds. Indeed He was a hidden treasure. This is a station that can never be described nor even alluded to. And in the station of 'I did wish to make Myself known', God was, and His creation had ever existed beneath His shelter from the beginning that hath no beginning, apart from its being preceded by a Firstness which cannot be regarded as firstness and originated by a Cause inscrutable even unto all men of learning.

In the following, Bahá'u'lláh discusses the Word of God (which Bahá'ís understand as the one essence of the Manifestations of God) in the same tablet:

Know thou, moreover, that the Word of God—exalted be His glory—is higher and far superior to that which the senses can perceive, for it is sanctified from any property or substance. It transcendeth the limitations of known elements and is exalted above all the essential and recognized substances. It became manifest without any syllable or sound and is none but the Command of God which pervadeth all created things. It hath never been withheld from the world of being. It is God’s all-pervasive grace, from which all grace doth emanate. It is an entity far removed above all that hath been and shall be.

These verses, and others like these, baffle the mind. Yet there's a rhyme and reason when meditated with thought and studied together with Bahá'u'lláh's other verses on the same subject. Biased tough I am, I've read enough literature (scientific or scriptural) to state with some confidence that there's a supreme brilliance and unfathomable depth in these words which is somewhat remarkable for an unschooled Persian prisoner held in Ottoman Palestine in the 19th century.

Kind regards,

Sam

Oh dear me!

Are you telling me that the Word of God is many Persons with one Essence?

That this idea baffles the mind?

No. Nothing of the sort is even mentioned in the cited quotes. The idea that creation has always existed as a created entity under God baffles the mind. Mainly in terms of the mechanism of such an "act" of creation. Yet the idea cannot be shown to be untrue nor illogical. In fact, the Creator of Eternity is truly the Greatest of all creators.

Kind regards,

Sam

No.  It was in your commentary:

"In the following, Bahá'u'lláh discusses the Word of God (which Bahá'ís understand as the one essence of the Manifestations of God) in the same tablet:"

I see. Well, I wasn't referring to that.

Jun 28, 2012 -- 1:18AM, Lilwabbit wrote:

Jun 27, 2012 -- 3:47PM, Aka_me wrote:

Jun 27, 2012 -- 3:39PM, SeraphimR wrote:

I'll bet it is complicated!

So not only are the Manifestations one with each other, they are one with God too.

yes... so long as you realize:

in realm 2 their consciousness is one with God.

however they are not one with God in realm 1.

 

does the visual from the diagram make sense?

I wouldn't put too much stock on that diagram. There are several things not in line with the Writings. Manifestations of God are fully below God and belong to the realm of creation. They may be primary creation but creation nonetheless. Bahá'u'lláh talks about essentially three levels: (1) God's Reality (utterly hidden and inaccessible), (2) the Kingdom of Names or the Word (pure attributes and absolute names which the Manifestations "manifest") and (3) the Kingdom of Creation (which manifests the same attributes in different levels of imperfection, man being the most perfect of these imperfect manifestations).

It is an heuristically useful diagram; but, Sam is right, and concur with him on this.