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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 7:12PM #11
SeraphimR
Posts: 9,208

Jun 17, 2012 -- 2:34AM, Aka_me wrote:


one thing I wish there were more hours in a day to study...


is the notion of Jesus or Baha'u'llah speaking from the authority of the Holy Spirit as opposed to speaking from their own "I" perspective.


when Jesus was a child, He did not speak from the authority of being a Prophet of God. it was only after the Holy Spirit descended upon Him (as if the Holy Spirit were the animating light of a light house) that He began speaking with the authority of God.


same goes for Moses at the burning bush, Muhammad in the cave, and Baha'u'llah in the Síyáh-Chál.


events that completely changed the nature of the Prophet by illuminating their mission to them.


the mystery that we may never be capable of fully appreciating is when Jesus says "I am God"




Well Luke chapter 2 reports:


[41] Every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover. [42] When he was twelve years old, they went up to the Feast, according to the custom. [43] After the Feast was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. [44] Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. [45] When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. [46] After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. [47] Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. [48] When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you."


[49] "Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" [50] But they did not understand what he was saying to them.





People with a mission to save the earth want the earth to seem worse than it is so their mission will look more important.


P.J. O'Rourke
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 3:16PM #12
in_my_opinion
Posts: 2,521

Jun 18, 2012 -- 7:12PM, SeraphimR wrote:


Jun 17, 2012 -- 2:34AM, Aka_me wrote:


one thing I wish there were more hours in a day to study...


is the notion of Jesus or Baha'u'llah speaking from the authority of the Holy Spirit as opposed to speaking from their own "I" perspective.


when Jesus was a child, He did not speak from the authority of being a Prophet of God. it was only after the Holy Spirit descended upon Him (as if the Holy Spirit were the animating light of a light house) that He began speaking with the authority of God.


same goes for Moses at the burning bush, Muhammad in the cave, and Baha'u'llah in the Síyáh-Chál.


events that completely changed the nature of the Prophet by illuminating their mission to them.


the mystery that we may never be capable of fully appreciating is when Jesus says "I am God"




Well Luke chapter 2 reports:


[41] Every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover. [42] When he was twelve years old, they went up to the Feast, according to the custom. [43] After the Feast was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. [44] Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. [45] When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. [46] After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. [47] Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. [48] When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you."


[49] "Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" [50] But they did not understand what he was saying to them.




 Yes. Similar stories exist about the Báb and the Blessed Beauty.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 3:44PM #13
SeraphimR
Posts: 9,208

Jun 21, 2012 -- 3:16PM, in_my_opinion wrote:


Jun 18, 2012 -- 7:12PM, SeraphimR wrote:


Jun 17, 2012 -- 2:34AM, Aka_me wrote:


one thing I wish there were more hours in a day to study...


is the notion of Jesus or Baha'u'llah speaking from the authority of the Holy Spirit as opposed to speaking from their own "I" perspective.


when Jesus was a child, He did not speak from the authority of being a Prophet of God. it was only after the Holy Spirit descended upon Him (as if the Holy Spirit were the animating light of a light house) that He began speaking with the authority of God.


same goes for Moses at the burning bush, Muhammad in the cave, and Baha'u'llah in the Síyáh-Chál.


events that completely changed the nature of the Prophet by illuminating their mission to them.


the mystery that we may never be capable of fully appreciating is when Jesus says "I am God"




Well Luke chapter 2 reports:


[41] Every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover. [42] When he was twelve years old, they went up to the Feast, according to the custom. [43] After the Feast was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. [44] Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. [45] When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. [46] After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. [47] Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. [48] When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you."


[49] "Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" [50] But they did not understand what he was saying to them.




 Yes. Similar stories exist about the Báb and the Blessed Beauty.




 Such stories don't make aka_me less wrong, alas.

People with a mission to save the earth want the earth to seem worse than it is so their mission will look more important.


P.J. O'Rourke
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2012 - 7:14AM #14
in_my_opinion
Posts: 2,521

The fact of prodigious childhood signs does not negate the Intimation; when the Holy Spirit, whether the Burning Bush, Dove or Archangel Gabriel, symbolizes the inception of a Dispensation.


That is possibly why Jesus, as His Revelation was yet to be revealed, was Baptized by John. Holy souls like John the Baptist know even before the fact of a Declaration.


Even so, all this is speculation outside of our ability to understand, as the mere ordinary folk we all are.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2012 - 9:52AM #15
SeraphimR
Posts: 9,208

Jun 25, 2012 -- 7:14AM, in_my_opinion wrote:


The fact of prodigious childhood signs does not negate the Intimation; when the Holy Spirit, whether the Burning Bush, Dove or Archangel Gabriel, symbolizes the inception of a Dispensation.


That is possibly why Jesus, as His Revelation was yet to be revealed, was Baptized by John. Holy souls like John the Baptist know even before the fact of a Declaration.


Even so, all this is speculation outside of our ability to understand, as the mere ordinary folk we all are.




John, whose birthday we celebrated yesterday, btw, knew even before he was born.


When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:41


------------


But I am confused.  Are Manifestations made, not born?

People with a mission to save the earth want the earth to seem worse than it is so their mission will look more important.


P.J. O'Rourke
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2012 - 4:30PM #16
in_my_opinion
Posts: 2,521

Jun 25, 2012 -- 9:52AM, SeraphimR wrote:


Jun 25, 2012 -- 7:14AM, in_my_opinion wrote:


The fact of prodigious childhood signs does not negate the Intimation; when the Holy Spirit, whether the Burning Bush, Dove or Archangel Gabriel, symbolizes the inception of a Dispensation.


That is possibly why Jesus, as His Revelation was yet to be revealed, was Baptized by John. Holy souls like John the Baptist know even before the fact of a Declaration.


Even so, all this is speculation outside of our ability to understand, as the mere ordinary folk we all are.




John, whose birthday we celebrated yesterday, btw, knew even before he was born.


When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:41


------------


But I am confused.  Are Manifestations made, not born?



God is Absolutely Pre-existent. "The Word was with God."  The Holy Spirit is pre-existent. The Manifestations of God are all pre-existent. "Before Abraham was, I am."


Christ, Abraham, Moses, Muhammad, all the "... Prophet(s) like unto Moses ..." were all before They were.


They are eternal in the past, present and future. "I am with you always." And in Heaven always, even when they partake of this physical life. All other than God are made. God is always the Creator and thus Creation as a whole, has also always existed, continues, and will continue to be Created.


We, on the other hand, are only eternal in the future. We have Immortality of the soul. We begin at conception when our souls are created and associated with our bodies. The Manifestations have that, also; They have more. They are eternal, from the Beginning that has no beginning.


There is the spirit of faith. "If ye have faith" We only gain that by recognizing and obeying the Manifestations when They are sent to us by God. Neither is acceptable without the other.


The recognition is to "know God ". We can only know God through the Alpha and the Omega that is the Manifestation. The obedience is loving God, also known as worshiping God. (Speculating that obedience is "Works".)


God judges us based on our capacities. Those who have not had the chance to hear of the Word, do not have the same responsibility as the faithful do. We all have the innate ability to "know God" and to "worship Him".


There are also other holy souls such as saints, martyrs, etc. We have the potential to gain those positions; but, martyrdom for example, is not granted automatically; and, instances are known of trying to attain it, but being refused.


So, it is a false dichotomy; They are both Made and born; Live eternally, but are born and die physically.


 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 26, 2012 - 10:18AM #17
SeraphimR
Posts: 9,208

Jun 25, 2012 -- 4:30PM, in_my_opinion wrote:


Jun 25, 2012 -- 9:52AM, SeraphimR wrote:


Jun 25, 2012 -- 7:14AM, in_my_opinion wrote:


The fact of prodigious childhood signs does not negate the Intimation; when the Holy Spirit, whether the Burning Bush, Dove or Archangel Gabriel, symbolizes the inception of a Dispensation.


That is possibly why Jesus, as His Revelation was yet to be revealed, was Baptized by John. Holy souls like John the Baptist know even before the fact of a Declaration.


Even so, all this is speculation outside of our ability to understand, as the mere ordinary folk we all are.




John, whose birthday we celebrated yesterday, btw, knew even before he was born.


When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:41


------------


But I am confused.  Are Manifestations made, not born?



God is Absolutely Pre-existent. "The Word was with God."  The Holy Spirit is pre-existent. The Manifestations of God are all pre-existent. "Before Abraham was, I am."


Christ, Abraham, Moses, Muhammad, all the "... Prophet(s) like unto Moses ..." were all before They were.


They are eternal in the past, present and future. "I am with you always." And in Heaven always, even when they partake of this physical life. All other than God are made. God is always the Creator and thus Creation as a whole, has also always existed, continues, and will continue to be Created.


We, on the other hand, are only eternal in the future. We have Immortality of the soul. We begin at conception when our souls are created and associated with our bodies. The Manifestations have that, also; They have more. They are eternal, from the Beginning that has no beginning.


There is the spirit of faith. "If ye have faith" We only gain that by recognizing and obeying the Manifestations when They are sent to us by God. Neither is acceptable without the other.


The recognition is to "know God ". We can only know God through the Alpha and the Omega that is the Manifestation. The obedience is loving God, also known as worshiping God. (Speculating that obedience is "Works".)


God judges us based on our capacities. Those who have not had the chance to hear of the Word, do not have the same responsibility as the faithful do. We all have the innate ability to "know God" and to "worship Him".


There are also other holy souls such as saints, martyrs, etc. We have the potential to gain those positions; but, martyrdom for example, is not granted automatically; and, instances are known of trying to attain it, but being refused.


So, it is a false dichotomy; They are both Made and born; Live eternally, but are born and die physically.


 




So at least you are not Arians.  The Manifestations are uncreated.


How about the Holy Spirit?  Is the HS also uncreated?

People with a mission to save the earth want the earth to seem worse than it is so their mission will look more important.


P.J. O'Rourke
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 26, 2012 - 12:19PM #18
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,814

Jun 26, 2012 -- 10:18AM, SeraphimR wrote:


So at least you are not Arians.  The Manifestations are uncreated.



They have existed forever but that doesn't mean they are uncreated. Bahá'u'lláh seems to suggest they were created, but that the act of creation itself is time-independent (logically precedes time). Time itself is a created property. The Manifestation of God, in certain tablets of Bahá'u'lláh, is itself regarded as the creator of the universe. He is, after all, the Manifestation of all the names and attributes of God, including creatorship. God Himself, however, is something that even the term "Creator" cannot describe, yet He is nothing less than the Creator. In a word, then, the Manifestation of God was meta-created. He assumed existence by something that is nothing less than an act of creation. Something we can never figure out and the mere attempt of which would only bust our brains.


Bahá'u'lláh in fact asserted that the whole universe has existed forever (but in a different earlier form) and yet was created by God. This he does by positing a creator so transcendental that even 'time' and 'eternity' are regarded as His "handiwork" (cf. previous references to The Hidden Words). By "essential pre-existence" Bahá'u'lláh refers in the following passage to the First Cause which precedes even time. Something caused time. A few decades later 'Abdu'l-Bahá differentiated more explicitly between two kinds of causality: "essential pre-existence" (causality preceding time) and "pre-existence of time" (causality occuring in time). Here's the relevant passage from Bahá'u'lláh:



Creation has neither beginning nor end, and none hath ever unravelled its mystery.... The world of existence is contingent, inasmuch as it is preceded by a cause, while essential pre-existence hath ever been, and shall remain, confined to God, magnified be His glory. This statement is being made lest one be inclined to conclude from the earlier assertion, namely that creation hath no beginning and no end, that it is pre-existent. True and essential pre-existence is exclusively reserved to God, while the pre-existence of the world is secondary and relative. (The Tabernacle of Unity)


 


"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 26, 2012 - 12:23PM #19
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,814

In the following, Bahá'u'lláh discusses creation having ever existed yet being preceded by God (Lawh-i-Hikmat / Tablet of Wisdom):


As regards thine assertions about the beginning of creation, this is a matter on which conceptions vary by reason of the divergences in men’s thoughts and opinions. Wert thou to assert that it hath ever existed and shall continue to exist, it would be true; or wert thou to affirm the same concept as is mentioned in the sacred Scriptures, no doubt would there be about it, for it hath been revealed by God, the Lord of the worlds. Indeed He was a hidden treasure. This is a station that can never be described nor even alluded to. And in the station of 'I did wish to make Myself known', God was, and His creation had ever existed beneath His shelter from the beginning that hath no beginning, apart from its being preceded by a Firstness which cannot be regarded as firstness and originated by a Cause inscrutable even unto all men of learning.


In the following, Bahá'u'lláh discusses the Word of God (which Bahá'ís understand as the one essence of the Manifestations of God) in the same tablet:


Know thou, moreover, that the Word of God—exalted be His glory—is higher and far superior to that which the senses can perceive, for it is sanctified from any property or substance. It transcendeth the limitations of known elements and is exalted above all the essential and recognized substances. It became manifest without any syllable or sound and is none but the Command of God which pervadeth all created things. It hath never been withheld from the world of being. It is God’s all-pervasive grace, from which all grace doth emanate. It is an entity far removed above all that hath been and shall be.


These verses, and others like these, baffle the mind. Yet there's a rhyme and reason when meditated with thought and studied together with Bahá'u'lláh's other verses on the same subject. Biased tough I am, I've read enough literature (scientific or scriptural) to state with some confidence that there's a supreme brilliance and unfathomable depth in these words which is somewhat remarkable for an unschooled Persian prisoner held in Ottoman Palestine in the 19th century.


Kind regards,


Sam

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 26, 2012 - 6:29PM #20
in_my_opinion
Posts: 2,521

Jun 26, 2012 -- 10:18AM, SeraphimR wrote:


So at least you are not Arians.




Lilwabbit already told what the Master said about Arianism. No, we are not Arianists.


The Manifestations are uncreated.



The previous two posts by Lilwabbit cover and clarify, these very abstruse and rarely familiar concepts, as well as something outside merely human comprehension can be expressed. God created them, too.



How about the Holy Spirit?  Is the HS also uncreated?




Yes, the Holy Spirit is pre-existent, but uncreated is probably not a correct description for the Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost or the Word which are all terms that indicate the same Emanation of God.


God alone is uncreated.


The two terms are different. As was explained pre-existent does not mean uncreated, to us.


God Almighty, the Godhead  alone, encompasses and is beyond, while All-Pervasive and Most Intimate.


But hey, you're just listening to one of His creatures.


You really have to figure out your own understanding, from what God said through His Manifestation, the Return of the Christ Spirit, the Incarnation of the Holy Spirit, the Glory of the Lord.


The quotations are the only Clue we have and we share them with you in the same humility that all God's creatures bow before Him.


But for God's loving grace we would not know God, any more than anyone else does.

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