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Switch to Forum Live View Fully god and fully man is a contradiction.
2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 3:23PM #41
jlb32168
Posts: 13,207

Jun 17, 2012 -- 2:41PM, Ed.W wrote:

I think a lot of people when they read "image" think "Polaroid" in their heads.  And say this is a "picture" of me on the desk, but it is not really me.  And then take the verse "image of God" to mean "not really God".


I don't think "image" in the scripture takes this context.  I think it takes more the connotation of reveal-ation of God; the God that can be seen.


You are correct.  God is spirit and spirit cannot be seen; however, God the Son has taken on material flesh; therefore, God is no longer invisible spirit, but has an Image that we can see and that Image is Christ.

Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 4:16PM #42
Ed.W
Posts: 9,426

And I said the Son was not normally seen.  There were encounters with the pre-incarnate Christ. 


So if you ask why this image could not have been seen instead of a human incarnation, the answer would be Christ came not only to be seen, but to suffer and die.


So to fulfill his entire mission he had to be fully man and fully God.  I didn't say that 100% man 100% God was the only conclusion, Simon, but I said it was (imo) the only logical conclusion.

Have you got anything I can sink my teeth into?
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 4:22PM #43
57
Posts: 22,536

Jun 17, 2012 -- 1:49PM, simonzur wrote:


Jun 17, 2012 -- 4:22AM, Ed.W wrote:


Fully human/fully divine serves primarily as an answer to particular heresy.  There were big arguments over "how divine?" or where did the divine stop and the humanity start.


Jesus--even though he worked miracles for example--was still fully human.  Even though he got hungry and needed rest, he was still fully God.


It's just the only logical answer to the question, unless you created some kind of "monster".




The only answer to the question?  I don't think so.  How about Jesus was fully man, and though God worked miracles through him and dwelt within him by his Spirit, he himself was not God.  He was the image of God.  

That's a different answer that is fully supported by scripture.







Buzzzzzz. Wrong. 


Jesus was God.  Never was Jesus not God. 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 5:19AM #44
Kwinters
Posts: 21,835

Jun 15, 2012 -- 1:14PM, lucaspa wrote:


Jun 15, 2012 -- 7:14AM, Kwinters wrote:


If we list the attributes of for what it means to be fully human and what it means to be fully god, it is perfectly clear that one being cannot be both simultaneously. Thus we can reject all of Christian claims about Jesus that rely upon this assumption as invalid, since not even a god can overcome a logical contradiction.



Sorry, but here you are trying to get logic to trump data. That is unacceptable.  If we list the attributes of particle and attributes of wave, it is perfectly clear that one thing cannot be both simultaneously.  Yet electrons, photon, and even you are!  By the standards you laid out, we have to reject all the experiments showing electrons and photons to be waves (the double slit experiment, for instance) and all the experiments that show them to be particles (radioactive decay, for instance).  Are you prepared to do this?


So, if a photon or electron can overcome a logical contradiction, how hard can it be for God to do so? Embarassed 


Actually, the fallacy is to think that logic dictates reality.  Logic can help us discern reality, but when reality and logic contradict, we go with reality every time.




Your comparison makes no sense.


Photons are both waves and particles. Being one does not preclude it being the other.


However, by definition man is (according to Christian theology) sinful.  God (according to the same theology) is sinless.


One cannot simultaneously be sinful and sinless since they are contradictions.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 5:22AM #45
Kwinters
Posts: 21,835

Jun 16, 2012 -- 12:01AM, Blü wrote:


KW


If we list the attributes of for what it means to be fully human and what it means to be fully god, it is perfectly clear that one being cannot be both simultaneously.


The claim is that Jesus is 100% human and 100% divine.


I'm reminded of Orwell's 1984 - War is peace.  Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.


How many fingers is God holding up?




I am just wondering, since to be human is to sin, when Christians will provide examples of Jesus sinning to demonstrate his full humanity.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 5:39AM #46
Kwinters
Posts: 21,835

Jun 17, 2012 -- 12:22AM, simonzur wrote:


Jun 15, 2012 -- 7:14AM, Kwinters wrote:


If we list the attributes of for what it means to be fully human and what it means to be fully god, it is perfectly clear that one being cannot be both simultaneously. Thus we can reject all of Christian claims about Jesus that rely upon this assumption as invalid, since not even a god can overcome a logical contradiction.

Further, blind faith is no answer to such a logical contradiction, merely an avoidance of confronting the outcome of an investigation. 




I read the entire thread, and I was tempted to agree since I do not believe that Jesus was both fully human and fully God.  I was initially impressed with the quotation pertaining to omniscinece vs. finite knowledge.  Then I read post #26, and I must say that it wins the day.

However, you basic point is still true, although the way at which you arrive there is wrong.  I would concentrate instead on these facts.  God is fully God and a human is fully human, but Jesus is not considered as two separate beings.  Jesus, they claim, is one being with two natures, but the nature of a thing is inseparable from its being.  Therefore, the one being that is Jesus cannot be fully any two other things.  Rather, in his compostion he can only be partially each of those things.  If it were true that Jesus is God and Man, it could not be true that he both fully God and fully man.  He could be partly God and partly man, fully God and partly man, or fully man and partly God from the viewpoint of his singular being.  

A machine may be comprised of many parts, but it cannot both be fully the machine and fully one of those parts.  Rather, it is fully machine but only part any of its parts.




I do not read jlb's posts.


Even a being with two natures, as you suggest, cannot be a contradiction. Jesus cannot be sinful and sinless at the same time. One cannot be partially sinless or partially sinful.


A machine without one of its parts is not a machine, since it does not meet the conventional definition of that thing. For instance, a shoe without a sole is not a shoe.  And a shoe is never fully shoe - it is a construction from its parts. There is no 'shoe' or 'machine' or anything else seperate from its parts.


The Chariot


Milinda:  “I did not come, Sir, on foot, but on a chariot.”


Nagasena: “If you have come on a chariot, then please explain to me what a chariot is.  Is the pole the chariot?”


Milinda: “No, reverend Sir!”


Nagasena:  “Is then the axle the chariot?”


Milinda:  “No, reverend Sir!”


Nagasena:  “Is it then the wheels, or the framework, or the flag-staff, or the yoke, or the reins, or the goadstick?”


Milinda:  “No, reverend Sir!”


Nagasena:  “Then is it the combination of pole, axle, wheels, framework, flag-staff, yoke, reins, and goad?”


Milinda:  “No, reverend Sir!”


Nagasena:  “Then is this ‘chariot’ outside the combination of pole, axle, wheels, framework, flag-staff, yoke, reins, and goad?”


Milinda:  “No, reverend Sir!”


Nagasena:  “Then, ask as I may, I can discover no chariot at all.  Just a mere sound is this ‘chariot’. But what is the real chariot? Your Majesty has told a lie, has spoken a falsehood!  There really is no chariot!

Moderated by Adelphe on Jun 18, 2012 - 07:17AM
Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 5:41AM #47
Kwinters
Posts: 21,835

Jun 17, 2012 -- 12:15PM, Blü wrote:


Ed


Raising themselves from the dead.


Who raised Jesus?  Jesus or Yahweh?


It'd have to be Yahweh, wouldn't it?  Jesus was dead at the time.




If we go by the texts they are quite clear that God raised Jesus from the dead.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 5:44AM #48
Kwinters
Posts: 21,835

Jun 17, 2012 -- 1:12PM, 57 wrote:


Jun 15, 2012 -- 7:14AM, Kwinters wrote:


If we list the attributes of for what it means to be fully human and what it means to be fully god, it is perfectly clear that one being cannot be both simultaneously. Thus we can reject all of Christian claims about Jesus that rely upon this assumption as invalid, since not even a god can overcome a logical contradiction.

Further, blind faith is no answer to such a logical contradiction, merely an avoidance of confronting the outcome of an investigation. 




I was reading through this  thread..trying to understand this so-called "logical contradiction". 


Jesus is God come in the flesh.  So how is it a contradiction? 


The Holy Spirit impregnated Mary and she birthed a child.   A human baby was born. Fully human. This baby was also God.  Fully God.  Its over obvious they had to be the same being simultaneously. 


This isn't a square triangle argument.   There is no logical contradiction in the post of KWinters. 


KWinters failed to post the contents of her so-called "investigation"...and skipped to an unsupported erroneous conclusion.  In fact KWinters has presented a "blind faith" argument..then asks us, in blind faith to accept her conclusion.




Hardly.


I mentioned omniscience: humans are not and gods (supposedly) are.


Another is sin: humans sin, gods (supposedly) do not.


A further attribute is perfection: humans are fallible, gods (supposedly) are perfect.



Do you have examples of Jesus being 100% human? When does he sin? When does he make mistakes? When is he ignorant?

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 7:06AM #49
jlb32168
Posts: 13,207

Jun 18, 2012 -- 5:39AM, Kwinters wrote:

I do not read jlb's posts.


You don’t read JLB’s posts because your arguments are informed almost exclusively by one narrow band from the entire segment of Western Christianity; furthermore, they don’t even take into consideration the entire Christian Orthodox East, which means you’re not even considering most of the spectrum of Christian theology and that makes for ill-informed arguments.   Several attempts to politely point this out were ignored. That’s fine with me since it gives me the last word and leaves others with the impression that posters who ignore others don’t wish to address serious problems with their arguments.  


In any case, the argument that Simonzur said “wins the day” (Thanx Simonzur) said that from a theological position, being “fully human” involves being of the species H. sapiens and possessing a soul and spirit.  If one possesses those qualities, it would seem to me that the person is “fully human”.  The addition of augmented divine properties would then seem irrelevant.


Jun 18, 2012 -- 5:39AM, Kwinters wrote:

Even a being with two natures, as you suggest, cannot be a contradiction. Jesus cannot be sinful and sinless at the same time. One cannot be partially sinless or partially sinful.


This point presupposes that man must be sinful.  Once again, this might be a western idea, but it isn’t the theology of the east and it might not be the theology of the entire west.  For the Christian east [rolling eyes for the umpteenth time] sin is unnatural.  For the Christian east, man sins because he fears death, because death is also unnatural.  For the Christian east, if one does not fear death, which is the case if that person knows with certainty that God will preserve man in the afterlife (something that most Christians only know by faith), that person possesses the ability to refrain from sin - only succumbing to its ultimate end - physical death for a time.


Therefore, if man possesses the ability, with God’s help, to refrain from sin (which is possible if He receives divine revelation removing the fear of death), then God as a man (who already knew that the permanency of death is conquered before the foundation of the world since He will affect that ontological change), and how this Theanthropos cannot sin in either human or divine nature, is perfectly normal.


Jun 18, 2012 -- 5:39AM, Kwinters wrote:

A machine without one of its parts is not a machine, since it does not meet the conventional definition of that thing.


A car w/o a carburetor or fuel injection is still a car.  It simply is a car that cannot function properly and must be repaired.

Moderated by Adelphe on Jun 18, 2012 - 07:19AM
Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 8:06AM #50
Blü
Posts: 24,830

jlb


If a man is mortal, and Jesus is 100% mortal, then he must cease on death.


Meanwhile he can't act independently of the laws of nature (eg perform miracles, magically appear and disappear) and he'll have needs and desires appropriate to a human - to breathe, eat, drink, excrete, find shelter, have social status, experience interpersonal sexual attraction, copulate, seek to generate, defend himself and so on.


Since that's 100% of him, there's nothing left over to be supernatural (assuming a satisfactory meaning can be found for that term at all).


Why isn't it as simple as that?


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