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Switch to Forum Live View Fully god and fully man is a contradiction.
2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 2:03PM #21
miknik5
Posts: 7,684

Jun 15, 2012 -- 7:14AM, Kwinters wrote:


If we list the attributes of for what it means to be fully human and what it means to be fully god, it is perfectly clear that one being cannot be both simultaneously. Thus we can reject all of Christian claims about Jesus that rely upon this assumption as invalid, since not even a god can overcome a logical contradiction.

Further, blind faith is no answer to such a logical contradiction, merely an avoidance of confronting the outcome of an investigation. 





Why don't you read Haggai 2...I understand clearly what you are trying to say...but nonetheless, GOD blessed us and did for us what we could NEVER do for ourselves...


GOD will not compromise HIS PERFECT and HOLY IMAGE for man's ever swaying, never constant, foolish, forgetful and imperfect image...nor will HE conform HIS PERFECT and HOLY IMAGE for man's ever swaying, never constant, foolish, forgetful and imperfect image.


I can post for you colossians 1 and Hebrews 1 & 2 that show that CHRIST was the visible IMAGE of the invisible IMAGE/SPIRIT of GOD...because GOD knows in our limited humanity we ever and always require signs and representations of things to understand things...but I am not sure that will suffice for you.


Please read what GOD asked of the priests...


Priests were supposed to be ministers before GOD for the people.  And in order for them to minister before GOD, they had to be clean...a HIGH PRIEST never came before GOD pleading for the sins of the people unless he first offered a sacrifice for his own sins...FIRST.


But GOD point blank told the priests that they were unclean in HIS SIGHT...


Please read the dialogue between GOD and the priests.


 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 2:50PM #22
MMarcoe
Posts: 15,865

Jun 15, 2012 -- 10:05AM, nieciedo wrote:


If God is the Ground of Being, the unity that underlies all things, the One in which we live and move and have our being ("Know this is, and take it to heart, that the Eternal is God in the heavens above and on the earth below: there is nothing else"), then in a certain sense everyone is "fully god and fully human," the difference being one of the reorientation of perception, a difference of manifestation and acknowledgement.


That reorientation would be what is meant by "dying to the self and rising again in Christ," "being born again," "accepting Christ into your heart," etc.





Indeed.


The human part is just a manifestation of the divine part. The difference between the two is one of perception.


For example, energy is energy, but it can "freeze" and thus manifest itself as matter. To the observer, it looks like matter and energy are two different things, but at the base level, they are the same.


 


 

There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth.

God is just a personification of reality, of pure objectivity.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 11:23PM #23
Rgurley4
Posts: 8,594

Another humanistic and secular attack by LOGIC at the heart of spiritual Christ-Following:


1. Born of the "seed" of Mary a virgin, lived a perfect life as a man on on planet earth, sacrificially bled to death on a cross, buried and partially mummified. He ate,drank,cried. He was tempted to leave the will of God.


2. ONE of the Divine PERSONS of the TRI-UNE GOD, spirit poured out in the flesh without loss of Deity, sinless, forgave sins, resurrected, ascended, will come again.


Jesus=God-Man....AND


MYSTERY of the TRI-UNE GOD


A QUICK analysis:


The TRI-UNE GOD defies logic, BUT is fully supported by Bible/Scripture, and is my SOUND "belief system".


>[God the Father is 'I am'.(YHWH)]
.....And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM:
     and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Exodus 3:14 (KJV)
>>{God the Son Jesus is 'I am'.(YHWH)}
.....Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. John 8:58 (KJV)
>>> (God the Holy Spirit)...Jesus to his disciples:
..."When the Counselor (God the Holy Spirit) comes,
whom I (God the Son/Jesus) will send to you from the Father (God the Father),
the Spirit of truth (God the Holy Spirit) who goes out from the Father (God the Father),
he will testify (to the spirit of Man) about me(God the Son/Jesus). John 15:26 (NIV)


God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), God the Holy Spirit = TRI-UNE God


Snapshots of the TRI-UNE God:


Genesis 1 -The Beginning
 1 In the beginning God (ELOHIM = plural) created the heavens and the earth....
26 Then God said, "Let US make man in OUR image, in OUR likeness,...


Mattthew 3: 16-17: The Beginning of the Ministry
As soon as Jesus (God the Son) was baptized, he went up out of the water.
At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God (God the Holy Spirit)
descending like (in the form of) a dove and lighting on him.
And a voice (God the Father) from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."...Divine at Birth, Perfect in Obedience!


Matthew 17 ...Jesus + Moses + Elijah...3 miracle workers on the Mount of The Transfiguration
 1   After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James,
      and led them up a high mountain by themselves.
 2   There he was transfigured before them.
      His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. (pre-heavenly glory)
3    Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
 4   Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here.
      If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."
 5   While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, (God the Holy Spirit?)
      and a voice from the cloud (God the Father) said,
      "This is my Son (Jesus-God the Son) , whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"
 6    When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified.(presence of pure Deity)
7     But Jesus came and touched them.
        "Get up," he said. "Don't be afraid."
8    When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus. (cloud + Voice gone)
 9    As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them,
       "Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."
10    The disciples asked him, "Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?"
11     Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things.
12     But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him,
         but have done to him everything they wished.
          In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands."
13     Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.



Matthew 28: 18 - The End of the Ministry
Then Jesus came to them (disciples) and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name
of (God) the Father and
of (God) the Son and
of (God the Holy Spirit,
and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.


John 15:26 (NIV)...a new promise by Jesus...a new economy of the TRI-UNE God
"When the Counselor (God the Holy Spirit) comes,
whom I (God the Son/Jesus) will send to you from the Father (God the Father),
the Spirit of TRUTH (God the Holy Spirit) who goes out from the Father (God the Father),
he (the Spirit of TRUTH) will testify (to the spirit of Man) about me.


Romans 15:30 (NIV)...in prayer
I urge you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ (God the Son/Jesus)
and by the love of the Spirit (God the Holy Spirit), to join me in my struggle
by praying to God (God the Father) for me.


2 Corinthians 13:14 (NIV)...in goodbyes
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ (God the Son/Jesus) ,
and the love of God (God the Father),
and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit (God the Holy Spirit) be with you all.


Ephesians 4: 4-6....Unity in the Body of Christ
Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit (TRI-UNE God) through the bond of peace.
There is one body and one Spirit
—just as you were called to one hope when you were called
— one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
one God and Father of all,
who is over all and through all and in all.


Colossians 2 :8-9;
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy,
which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.


Colossians 1 :15-19
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
For by him all things were created:
things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible,
whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities;
all things were created by him and for him.
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
And he is the head of the body, the church;
he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead,
so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven,
by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 16, 2012 - 12:01AM #24
Blü
Posts: 24,663

KW


If we list the attributes of for what it means to be fully human and what it means to be fully god, it is perfectly clear that one being cannot be both simultaneously.


The claim is that Jesus is 100% human and 100% divine.


I'm reminded of Orwell's 1984 - War is peace.  Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.


How many fingers is God holding up?


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 16, 2012 - 10:07AM #25
MMarcoe
Posts: 15,865

Jun 15, 2012 -- 11:23PM, Rgurley4 wrote:


Another humanistic and secular attack by LOGIC at the heart of spiritual Christ-Following:





And yet you invoke "logic" to support your point.

There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth.

God is just a personification of reality, of pure objectivity.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 16, 2012 - 12:48PM #26
jlb32168
Posts: 13,129

I’m waiting for someone to explain what being “fully human” is.  From a theological position, it involves being of the species H. sapiens and possessing a soul and spirit.  If one possesses those qualities, it would seem to me that the person is “fully human”.  The addition of augmented divine properties would then seem irrelevant.

Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 12:22AM #27
simonzur
Posts: 3,660

Jun 15, 2012 -- 7:14AM, Kwinters wrote:


If we list the attributes of for what it means to be fully human and what it means to be fully god, it is perfectly clear that one being cannot be both simultaneously. Thus we can reject all of Christian claims about Jesus that rely upon this assumption as invalid, since not even a god can overcome a logical contradiction.

Further, blind faith is no answer to such a logical contradiction, merely an avoidance of confronting the outcome of an investigation. 




I read the entire thread, and I was tempted to agree since I do not believe that Jesus was both fully human and fully God.  I was initially impressed with the quotation pertaining to omniscinece vs. finite knowledge.  Then I read post #26, and I must say that it wins the day.

However, you basic point is still true, although the way at which you arrive there is wrong.  I would concentrate instead on these facts.  God is fully God and a human is fully human, but Jesus is not considered as two separate beings.  Jesus, they claim, is one being with two natures, but the nature of a thing is inseparable from its being.  Therefore, the one being that is Jesus cannot be fully any two other things.  Rather, in his compostion he can only be partially each of those things.  If it were true that Jesus is God and Man, it could not be true that he both fully God and fully man.  He could be partly God and partly man, fully God and partly man, or fully man and partly God from the viewpoint of his singular being.  

A machine may be comprised of many parts, but it cannot both be fully the machine and fully one of those parts.  Rather, it is fully machine but only part any of its parts.

"The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp."~ The Revelation
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 2:02AM #28
koolpoi
Posts: 6,301

Jun 16, 2012 -- 12:48PM, jlb32168 wrote:


I’m waiting for someone to explain what being “fully human” is.  From a theological position, it involves being of the species H. sapiens and possessing a soul and spirit.  If one possesses those qualities, it would seem to me that the person is “fully human”.  The addition of augmented divine properties would then seem irrelevant.




Aren't human limitations part of being human as opposed to being God?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 2:10AM #29
Estacia
Posts: 2,209

Jun 17, 2012 -- 2:02AM, koolpoi wrote:

Jun 16, 2012 -- 12:48PM, jlb32168 wrote:


I’m waiting for someone to explain what being “fully human” is.  From a theological position, it involves being of the species H. sapiens and possessing a soul and spirit.  If one possesses those qualities, it would seem to me that the person is “fully human”.  The addition of augmented divine properties would then seem irrelevant.




Aren't human limitations part of being human as opposed to being God?


KoolP


I AGREE with you.


 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 4:22AM #30
Ed.W
Posts: 9,423

Fully human/fully divine serves primarily as an answer to particular heresy.  There were big arguments over "how divine?" or where did the divine stop and the humanity start.


Jesus--even though he worked miracles for example--was still fully human.  Even though he got hungry and needed rest, he was still fully God.


It's just the only logical answer to the question, unless you created some kind of "monster".

Have you got anything I can sink my teeth into?
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