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11 months ago  ::  Jul 02, 2012 - 1:21PM #21
mokantx
Posts: 3,615

If memory serves, the "Fortnight for Freedom" should be wrapping up (if it didn't yesterday) within the next day or two.  Anybody get a sense of how it all went, and the bishops' take on it all?  Not being on "the inside" anymore, I don't always have access to that, but my sense from the outside looking in, is that it did not turn out to be this great groundswell of support for which the bishops had hoped.



There's an interesting editorial out today that I think suggests that once again, the bishops are edging away from Vatican II, or perhaps (in my words) becoming ever more "cafeteria-like" in those things they choose to accept from VII, versus those they conveniently ignore.



In any case, I'd be curious to know if folks think this whole thing helped, hurt, or was indifferent to the church in general.



mo


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11 months ago  ::  Jul 02, 2012 - 5:14PM #22
WaveringCC
Posts: 4,896

Jul 2, 2012 -- 1:21PM, mokantx wrote:


If memory serves, the "Fortnight for Freedom" should be wrapping up (if it didn't yesterday) within the next day or two. I think on July 4th. Anybody get a sense of how it all went, and the bishops' take on it all?  Not being on "the inside" anymore, I don't always have access to that, but my sense from the outside looking in, is that it did not turn out to be this great groundswell of support for which the bishops had hoped.


I can only judge by what happened (actually, didn't happen) in the DC area. I don't watch TV news at all so maybe there was some coverage. I listen to all news stations in the car most of the time, and there was nothing mentioned about it. I read the Washington Post cover to cover and have several news feeds from Google - which never had any stories (the Google feed is national, not just local news).


Based on that, it seems it was a huge yawn around here. A non-event that did not make a ripple.  It's a bit surprising really because they really, really hyped it in the parishes around here. Cardinal Wuerl rented the Smith Center at George Washington University for a kick-off event, with the papal nuncio in attendance. Well, about 2000 showed up - mind you, those 2000 included all the employees of the archdiocese and their various agencies (Catholic Charities etc), plus various other must-attendees such as seminarians and priest/students at Catholic University, Washington Theological Union etc. There are a number of houses of study in DC for several orders.  DC is only 45 minutes drive from Baltimore, now the home of Lori - one of the most notorious pushers of this event. Don't know if he brought a group with him to DC or not in buses maybe?. But 2000 out of a Catholic population in the DC area of close to 600,000 (not counting Richmond diocese or Baltimore diocese) isn't much. They pushed it for weeks - inserts in the bulletins, brochures in racks at the churches, pitches from the pulpit from what I hear, etc.   I don't even remember if there was a small story in the Post or not - perhaps buried on p. A13 or something. Certainly didn't get any major coverage, because nobody showed up. A week or two earlier though, the Girl Scouts had 200,000 in DC, gathered on the Mall.


There's an interesting editorial out today that I think suggests that once again, the bishops are edging away from Vatican II, or perhaps (in my words) becoming ever more "cafeteria-like" in those things they choose to accept from VII, versus those they conveniently ignore.


Well, the plot thickens on all of that.  Getting closer and closer to the bad old days of the war on "modernism", etc.  Several dioceses are now resorting to "loyalty oaths" according to a post in America.  Comment #13 has an interesting quote in response- another forgotten lesson.


When Pius X died, the conclave of 1914 elected Benedict XV, who immediately issued an encyclical (Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_Beatissimi_Apos...) calling on Catholics ‘to appease dissension and strife" so that "no one should consider himself entitled to affix on those who merely do not agree with his ideas the stigma of disloyalty to faith.
‘There is no need of adding any qualifying terms to the profession of Catholicism’ he concluded. ‘It is quite enough for each one to proclaim 'Christian is my name and Catholic my surname’ “


In any case, I'd be curious to know if folks think this whole thing helped, hurt, or was indifferent to the church in general.


A non-event - neither helped nor hurt because few people noticed it at all, including most Catholics.


mo




It's getting absolutely surreal. Every time I read the Catholic press these days I feel like Alice in Wonderland. It's all totally out of control and totally nutsy.


For example, there is the fascinating appt of the German guy, Muller, as head of the CDF. In the middle of B16's increasingly desparate attempts to lure back the SSPX crowd, he has appointed someone who has already been condemned by SSPX as a heretic - (see Cherb's Heretic! thread). Muller is also a close friend of a noted thinker in liberation theology (Guttierez).


...the e-mails cited Müller for espousing suspect positions on the virginity of Mary (which he said in a 2003 book shouldn’t be understood in a “physiological” sense), the Eucharist (Müller has apparently counseled against using the term “body and blood of Christ” to describe the consecrated bread and wine at Mass), and ecumenism (last October, Müller declared that Protestants are “already part of the church” founded by Christ.)


Defenders of Müller argued that in each case, his words had either been taken out of context or were consistent with official teaching.


Yesterday, a leader of the traditionalist Catholic Society of St. Pius X objected to Müller's appointment, citing his allegedly heterodox views on the perpetural virginity of Mary.


"It is not acceptable that the leader of the congregation holds a heresy," said Auxiliary Bishop Alfonso de Galarreta, one of four prelates in the breakaway society.


ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/german-fri...


Then we have this priceless quote from the bishop who is the new liaison with SSPX - who's basically saying they can come back WITHOUT accepting Vatican II.


The statement, released by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which oversees "Ecclesia Dei," said the New York-born Dominican is a respected theologian who has devoted much time and attention to the doctrinal issues under review in current talks with the breakaway traditionalist Society of St. Pius X, led by Bishop Bernard Fellay. The society rejects some of the teachings of Vatican II as well as the modernizing reforms, especially to the liturgy, that followed in its wake.


Di Noia told Catholic News Service the Vatican needed to help people who have strong objections to the council see "that these disagreements don't have to be dividing or keep us from the same Communion table."


"It is possible to have theological disagreements while remaining in communion with the see of Peter," he said.


LOL!  Only if you are SSPX! 


When it comes to progressives, it's deny them communion, silencing, excommunicating, removal as bishop etc.


Now the pope is offering them their own Opus Dei style prelature. 


Why is B16 groveling so? I honestly don't get it.  Will he soon be crawling towards them on hands and knees, wearing sackcloth and covered with ashes, begging SSPX to take back the RCC.


But maybe if he asked Kung to start a new prelature ......

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11 months ago  ::  Jul 02, 2012 - 5:40PM #23
mokantx
Posts: 3,615

Wav


My wife and I were up in St. Louis recently, and talked to several priests (including non-relatives).  It was most interesting to get the priests take on it all.  As each would speak to us, we got the impression that they were not only speaking for themselves, but that many/most of their priest friends felt similarly.  The overall message was that they are embarassed by the bishops, who make their jobs as priests so much harder than it need be.  Among the comments we heard about this "event," was that the local bishop ordered each to play a video of the event in their parish.  While they weren't objectively against that as a concept, they REALLY hated to put their parishioners through a VERY bad video.  Apparently this was of a press conference.  the whole (15 minute or thereabouts) video had less than 5 minutes of quality stuff: the balance was applause, delays, and otherwise wasted time.  So the first thing I heard from most of these guys is that they felt really badly subject their congregations to such a waste of their time, and for such a poor quality video production. 


Another thing we heard, is that while there are SOME parishioners who wanted to take up the banner and try to make something big of it all, there was at least an equal number who told them outright that they simply disagree with the whole thing.,  The majority seemed to not care at all.



So I guess a part of me is thinking that if the bishops could NOT get Catholics fired up, this turns out to be a lot more than just a "ho hum" kind of an event, as it becomes a collossal failure on the part of the bishops: sort of a "follow me" only to find that only a small handful followed....  Not exactly a ringing endorsement of their leadership.  I wonder if they noticed, or if they have played the old backslapping game, congratulating themselves on being "ahead of the curve," thereby missing the real story here...



Among our other events of the trip, we were at a private graduation party, at which there were a number of priests and a whole lot of other "faithful" catholics.  We were surprised by the number of folks who expressed sentiments like this:  "if it weren't for my [xxx] ministry, I think I'd just walk away, as that's the only thing holding me to the church these days.  That [xxx] was for some, a music ministry, for others something related to teaching, or to caring for the poor, etc.  But NOWHERE in all of that did we find one bit of excitement about what's going on.    I have NEVER seen less passion about what it means to be a Catholic these days.  The two topics that would get an almost immediate reaction were "things church" and "things political."  When those two things trump even the Baseball Cardinals in St. Louis you KNOW something is going on...



Benedict just plain confounds.  Without ANY prompting on our part, Benedict's apparent goveling for the SSPX folks was brought up by several priests, and not in a way suggesting this made them happy...   In general, much of what we tend to discuss here came up over and over, and it was (believe it or not), usually NOT my wife or I who brought it up.



For whatever reasons, Benedict seems to be driven to do things that are pulling the church apart in many ways.  The real mystery is not why priests abused, as Benedict would have us believe, but why Benedict himself seems to not care about what his reign is doing to the church.

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11 months ago  ::  Jul 02, 2012 - 5:59PM #24
jane2
Posts: 13,697

Mo and Wav


Many thanks for your input. A friend of mine still in the pews here perceived a reluctance in her Franciscan parish priests even when they "had" to present letters and video. Little or no local coverage in the Atlanta area.


 

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11 months ago  ::  Jul 02, 2012 - 8:27PM #25
WaveringCC
Posts: 4,896

Jul 2, 2012 -- 5:59PM, jane2 wrote:


Mo and Wav


Many thanks for your input. A friend of mine still in the pews here perceived a reluctance in her Franciscan parish priests even when they "had" to present letters and video. Little or no local coverage in the Atlanta area.




Sounds like it landed with a thud pretty much everywhere.


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11 months ago  ::  Jul 02, 2012 - 8:33PM #26
WaveringCC
Posts: 4,896

Jul 2, 2012 -- 5:40PM, mokantx wrote:


Benedict just plain confounds.  Without ANY prompting on our part, Benedict's apparent goveling for the SSPX folks was brought up by several priests, and not in a way suggesting this made them happy...   In general, much of what we tend to discuss here came up over and over, and it was (believe it or not), usually NOT my wife or I who brought it up.


For whatever reasons, Benedict seems to be driven to do things that are pulling the church apart in many ways.  The real mystery is not why priests abused, as Benedict would have us believe, but why Benedict himself seems to not care about what his reign is doing to the church.




I am beginning to seriously wonder if Benedict is losing it.  One of my favorite blogs is called Heresy & Humor. She wrote a long post about one of Benedict's speeches a few weeks ago (copied below). And I think she's called it. The emperor has no clothes - but has fooled a whole lot of people.


Pope's Pet Peeves Proclaimed ~ in Abstract Drivel



This post is a rejoinder to a speech given by the current pope in 1989, posted at Enlightened Catholicism.  (Read it, please, if you can.)

With all due respect to an elderly bishop and theologian, to me his musings on the dynamics of the psyche, his diagnosis of modern man's psychopathology, and his proposal of a cure via philosophical evangelization - all presented in abstract language void of any concrete basis in Scripture or the Fathers - leave the reader awash in a sea of airy abstractions, punctuated by fanciful conceptual leaps.

Driven by the same pet peeves we see today - an agenda with no discernible resemblance to the Gospel - the pope is clearly on a mission laid out 23 long years ago.   And to this clinical psychologist, the speech reads as little more than abstract drivel - missing a human touch - but tinged, I hate to say this, with something akin to nuttiness.  As Shakespeare might have opined:  "Sound and Fury.  Signifying nothing."

Sorry to assign reading, but I beg you, if you haven't already done so, to go and read the speech.  As I want to be fair and allow you to form your own opinion, despite my opening remarks.  But folks...  I am aghast!

Here are some initial parts of the speech (all I could bear to closely analyze), which set the scene for my remarks below (but feel free to skip over 1-19, a tedious necessity, to ensure a careful analysis):
  1. General Pet PeevePeople in the pews are questioning papal authority.  He calls the laity's concerns "difficulties with the faith" = "a litany of objections to the practice and teaching of the Church"  (However, you will notice below that the difficulties have nothing to do with basics defined in the creed!)
  2. Specific Burrs under pope's saddle:   "principal elements of this litany" = pelvic/gender issues (birth control, same-sex attraction) and "sacramental order" (divorce/remarriage & admission to Eucharist, women's ordination) - in other words, our "faith" somehow stands (or falls) on these crucial (Gospel?) gender/sex/marital issues! 
  3. Bottom Line Pet PeevePeople should not think for themselves, since "individual conscience"or "freedom" (of "conscience") = bad, bad, bad ... (This in spite of Vatican II pronouncements to the contrary, not to speak of our God-given free will.)
  4. Concluding Diagnosis:  "They [laity's concerns - #2 above] spring from one and the same vision of humanity within which there operates a particular notion of human freedom."[#3 above]  (How right he is, except most people do not view this as a pathology.  Here we enter different worlds.)
  5. Stop and NoticeNothing about the Gospel.  No scripture.  No Patristics.  (Pet Peeves of a pope.)
  6. Broad generalization:  "modern man would find it difficult to relate to the Church’s traditional sexual morality" = lumping everything together as if people are endorsing prostitution, child abuse, bestiality, polygamy, adultery, promiscuity, etc.  (Sexuality and Authority = the Gospel?)
  7. Broad assumption: "the Church’s traditional sexual morality" is being critiqued "no matter how meaningful [it] may have been under past historical conditions." (No history cited and history might offer a very different view here...  Plus, how dare we question?)
  8. Reformulated Diagnosis: "we are no longer prepared to subordinate [our conscience] to some external authority" = let your fingers do the walking and we'll do the talking.  (There's that dreaded God-given freedom.)
  9. Prescribed Treatment = We will think for you!  (Conscience as a sort of robotic method issued from on high = Rome.)
  10. Stop and NoticeThe proposed robotic method has nothing to do with the Gospel. 
  11. Reformulated Diagnosis:  "aura of morality" [our choices] = "surrender of moral integrity, the simplifications of a lax conscience."  (Laity's failure to bow to Rome's sexual fixations has led us to a point of total depravity across the board.)
  12. Prescribed Treatment = "conscience understood as that knowledge which derives from a higher form of knowing."  (Conscience trickles down from on highWe will think for you!)
  13. Broad strange assumption:  One's relationship to one's body "changes" if we think for ourselves, if we don't follow these norms from on high "as the ultimate arbiter of one’s obligation." (Termed an "assumption" as this appears to be an important part of his "argument" - but no evidence or reasoning is mustered to support the claim.)
  14. Strange logic:  Body now being discussed as if it were an appendage - instead of us!  (Is he delicately referring to the male sexual organ??  Or perhaps due to "robotic" view of how people should or do make choices?)
  15. Strange logic:  "No longer does man expect to receive a message from his bodiliness as to who he is and what he should do..." (You got me, folks!  Where this comes from ...  I cannot fathom.)
  16. Stop and NoticeNothing about the Gospel!  No scripture at all.  No Patristics.  (In this supposed anthropology or psychology which bears no resemblance to Jesus!)
  17. Reformulated Diagnosis (phrased in strange logic):  So perverse [my word] have we become, apparently, that "the body no longer expresses being at all, on the contrary, it has become a piece of property." (Dualism.  At best!)
  18. Strange logic and assumptive leap:  "this way of thinking first became an actual possibility through the fundamental separation—not a theoretical but a practical and constantly practiced separation—of sexuality and procreation."  (Translation:  Birth control has deranged humanity.)
  19. Strange logic leading to Weird Bottom-line Diagnosis and Plan to Assess for Treatment:  



It would be interesting to follow in detail this revolutionary vision about man which has appeared behind our rather haphazardly concocted litany of objections to the Church’s teaching. Without a doubt this will be one of the principal challenges for anthropological reflection in coming years. This reflection will have to sort out meticulously where quite meaningful corrections to traditional notions appear and where there begins a truly fundamental opposition to faith’s vision of man, an opposition that admits no possibility of compromise but places squarely before us the alternative of believing or not.


It is exceedingly difficult for this reader and would-be respondent to even make sense of the abstractions and illogical leaps which I have detailed above.  And that's before he even gets to points 1, 2, and 3.  Nevertheless, it would appear from the paragraph I've just flagged that the pope views faith as unquestioning acceptance of abstract philosophical principles.  In contrast to a relationship with the indwelling Trinity.  In contrast to the Gospel.  And the Good News - to me - is twisted into Bad News.  A dark vision.  Simply to be believed.   Or not.  (As he makes clear.)

Somewhere along the line this man has entered an alternate universe.  Unmoored from the Gospel, so far as I can see.  Taking for "faith" a sort of abstract, philosophical compendium, placed into a blender, poured out as pablum to be swallowed whole, it would appear.  Making of the faithful puppets on Vatican strings.  For I see nothing of this in the words or actions of Jesus or the hammered-out doctrines of the Creed or the close spiritual/scriptural reasoning of the Fathers, or the concept of faith as a relationship.

Only in point #1 does he cite actual publications.  Not for what they contain, but for what's missing:  The "doctrine of creation" he asserts has disappeared from the theological radar screen.  (Restoring this doctrine, apparently, is the basis from which our pablum conscience is to be formed?)  Next come abstract leaps of "logic" yielding this sentence: "In a time when we are experiencing the agonizing of creation against man’s work and when the question of the limits and standards of creation upon our activity has become the central problem of our ethical responsibility, this fact must appear quite strange."  Strange, indeed, is that sentence.  Nevertheless, it gives a flavor for how he mistakes the signs of the times, while revealing a strange tendency to empathize with creation, but not with actual persons.  Followed by a lament that we, as he views it, are unable to read a spiritual message in nature (he calls it the "material world") and he mourns an imagined "demise of metaphysics" which somehow "relates" to a perceived lack of teaching on creation.

I must admit, if this man were in my office, at this point I'd be wondering about hospitalization.

Now, I could go on...  quoting and trying to parse the abstractions he seems most comfortable dealing with, the abstract assumptions and generalizations and so on, all of which seem so far afield from Jesus or the Old Testament for that matter.  So far from the blessed wonder of concrete, nitty-gritty reality throughout the Bible.  Instead, Benedict seems hung up on yearning for an alternate universe.  Of abstractions.  I can imagine Euclidian Geometry would really please him.  Those neat proofs.  No sex.  Triangles and Squares being their different "genders" so to speak, each with their different "roles" so neatly laid out, nothing amiss.  No need for freedom or rights. 

With all due respect for this man's age and years of study and prayer, he seems unable to reach out and touch someone.  As Jesus did.  So I simply can't see how his reasoning is likely to reach those of us he clearly views as degenerates.  Indeed, his thinking, to me, sounds Calvinistic - as if we were utterly depraved.

Let's take a moment to consider:  Where is the Lord of Love?  Where is the Good Shepherd?  Are we not the People of God?  Have we not been baptized into a Royal Priesthood?  

Instead (in point #2) we get:  "The decline of the doctrine on creation includes the decline of metaphysics, man’s imprisonment in the empirical."  Yes, it actually appears that he wants everyone to leave the everyday (as Rahner lovingly describes the world) and join him in his beloved abstractions.  Greek metaphysical abstractions instead of grassroots imagery, so vivid in Hebrew scriptures (mountains leaping like rams) and the Gospels (Jesus feeding the multitudes) .  Instead of faith as a relationship ("Come to me all you who labor and are burdened...")

Dear God!  Please, send someone who is a true theologian, to help me here!   A true theologian as the Fathers viewed it.  Someone whose years of prayer have so melted into humility that the Living Presence of God flows through him or her.  Someone to whom God has granted insight and wisdom and an ability to reach out and touch someone.  With Divine Love and Compassion and Mercy as Jesus demonstrates so movingly.

It's hard for me to comprehend, from this speech, that the pope is actually a theologian.  And heaven knows he is no psychologist - but has deigned to "diagnose" European "man's" current psychic state ("the deep desperation of mankind today") and, without citing either scripture or the Fathers, he deigns to propose a solution to his personal diagnosis - as if we all had been infected by a common brain disease and he alone knows the treatment to alleviate the symptoms he believes we ALL manifest!  (Is this the source of the famous "many" change?)  And why foist the treatment on the US/sisters, when he's diagnosed "European man" - oh, well...

It's clear Benedict has his betes noires.  You could make a list.  Easily.  From just this speech.  The various vendettas going on today ~ laid out 23 years ago.  What is not clear, however, is how in the heck he imagines reaching anyone with this agenda?

Forgive me, Father, but this is abstract drivel.  Sound and fury.  Signifying nothing.

Makes you yearn for a blade of grass.  A flower.  Give me Psalm 1 any day.  The blessed Realities of Scripture:  Creation.  God's calls.  God's visitations.  The Psalms.  The Prophets.  The Gospels.

Maranatha!  Come, Lord Jesus!


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11 months ago  ::  Jul 02, 2012 - 11:25PM #27
hewy1952
Posts: 2,419

Actually, the current chasm due in part to the Internet, a politic of liberty and communications in general, is wider than it was during the Reformation.  Luther objected and proclaimed to a relatively small number of folks and that word took months/years to make its way round the Church.  The chasm created by Benedict is enormous by comparison, and really, don't you frequently have an image of 'us' looking across a great divide at these red clad men, speaking about issues so far removed from the gospels that the 'us's' just shake our heads.  Oh, there is still the problem of the faithful, but more and more they are likewise shaking their heads.  You can't have (as MO said) a huge number of priests who are profoundly disappointed and not expect that this will work its way to the laity.  It will.  But not in sufficient time to 'save' what's left of the Church.  It's no longer a case of 'reform'; now its a case of remake.

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11 months ago  ::  Jul 02, 2012 - 11:31PM #28
hewy1952
Posts: 2,419

A 'priest friend' (close to MO's age) posted this:  From the perspective of the laity, it pretty much says it all.


 


 

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11 months ago  ::  Jul 02, 2012 - 11:38PM #29
mokantx
Posts: 3,615

Wav


To begin, thanks for the link. I've read (struggled through) Benedict's speech, and I agree with the blogess....  Yikes!


I read the speech, and then reread it, just to make sure.  No wonder the church is in trouble.  I don't wish to reread his stuff on women.  It says it all.  That women are leaving in droves really IS justified if this is what the man and his church truly believe. 


The man is guilty of exactly what he charges against society: of offering nothing but negativity, and denying the position of the other.  I had HOPED that the guy might try to explain how it is that the church is right, and society is so wrong, when society speaks of the hot button issues.  His answer: obedience to the church is right, and everybody else is wrong.  It's that simple. No supporting logic, no persuasive arguments, no rationale.   And then he wonders why so many look at the church today and see emptyness.  He had the perfect opportunity to address those issues, but chose to play the power card.



amazing

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11 months ago  ::  Jul 02, 2012 - 11:43PM #30
mokantx
Posts: 3,615

Jul 2, 2012 -- 11:25PM, hewy1952 wrote:


Actually, the current chasm due in part to the Internet, a politic of liberty and communications in general, is wider than it was during the Reformation.  Luther objected and proclaimed to a relatively small number of folks and that word took months/years to make its way round the Church.  The chasm created by Benedict is enormous by comparison, and really, don't you frequently have an image of 'us' looking across a great divide at these red clad men, speaking about issues so far removed from the gospels that the 'us's' just shake our heads.  Oh, there is still the problem of the faithful, but more and more they are likewise shaking their heads.  You can't have (as MO said) a huge number of priests who are profoundly disappointed and not expect that this will work its way to the laity.  It will.  But not in sufficient time to 'save' what's left of the Church.  It's no longer a case of 'reform'; now its a case of remake.




Hewy


While I agree with you, it ain't gonna happen.  Those at the top are so convinced that they are right, that they can't even understand what's wrong with that picture you posted in the context of the Gospel they preach.   If they cared, they'd ditch those fancy clothes and rooms, put on jeans and sweatshirts, and start having dinner with those who have left, those who work in the real world, and above all, those families who are trying their best to hold it all together, in the face of a leadership that clearly does not understand.  But that't not gonna happen. 


While I've not a clue what may arise, I'm pretty sure that it will not come from within, but will arise from those who have left.  The hunger is there.  Sadly, there is no desire on the part of those at the top to bridge that gap.  All they want is to be obeyed.  The rest of us are to simply turn off our minds, and obey.  They don't even feel they need to respond intelligently to the arguments anymore.

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