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2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 9:19AM #11
bigbear6161
Posts: 3,693
Things do seem to be changing. The bishops no longer care about relevance, reality or the sense of the faithful. They want a smaller, leaner more doctrinally "pure" laity. They have written their own epitaph. What do you think all the rest of us are gonna do?
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 10:02AM #12
mokantx
Posts: 3,815

Jun 14, 2012 -- 9:19AM, bigbear6161 wrote:

Things do seem to be changing. The bishops no longer care about relevance, reality or the sense of the faithful. They want a smaller, leaner more doctrinally "pure" laity. They have written their own epitaph. What do you think all the rest of us are gonna do?




Bear


I think that's the big question.  The bishops seem to be saying "it's my way or the highway."  And those who back them, seem to be wrapped up in an almost gleeful purge of all those with whom THEY disagree. 


As to where this will all lead, my sense is this.  The baby boomers (like me) have for the most part, made up their minds.  Many have left, but those who have chosen to stay have had to make "accommodations" with themselves, as to how they define Catholicism, and whether they see room for themselves.  I'm guessing that of those who chose to stay, with that goes a silence, an unwillingness to fight, and in many cases, even to engage.  Sure, there will be a small but devoted group that will fight (think VOTF-like folks), but the vast majority will, I think, simply slide into their own form of cafeteria catholicism, which will last until they get a pastor they just can't handle, at which point they will once again, face that question of "leave or not..."


The real story here is in the young.  The church is losing the young women, as every more (and I suspect now that number is in a VERY strong majority of young women raised in catholic families) choose to marry outside the church.  The end result is not just the loss of that woman, but more than likely her husband AND her children.  With that "source" of future catholics cut off, it will only take a few generations until there isn't much left.  And those that ARE left, will likely be extremely conservative, further pushing the church towards a face that is simply unacceptable to both the boomers, and the more centrists of society (not to mention those with liberal mindsets...)


I do think the next papal conclave is likely to be a doozie.  For the bishops, it will be decision time.  A choice to continue along the trajectory of the popes who have succeeded John XXIII will most certainly set the fate of the church.  A break with that trajectory COULD slow this process down a bit.  But i fear a centrist wil likely be seen as a temporary measure.  But should the cardinals choose to elect one with a vision of the church more focused on reinvigorating Vatican II, then maybe, just maybe things could change.  But honestly, I doubt it.  Even if they DID elect such a man, the Vatican and most of the church's episcopates are filled with conservatives of the highest order.  Such a liberal pope would likely be rendered ineffective quickly.  Such is the power of the back rooms of the vatican.



mo

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 10:21AM #13
WaveringCC
Posts: 5,124

Jun 14, 2012 -- 10:02AM, mokantx wrote:


Jun 14, 2012 -- 9:19AM, bigbear6161 wrote:

Things do seem to be changing. The bishops no longer care about relevance, reality or the sense of the faithful. They want a smaller, leaner more doctrinally "pure" laity. They have written their own epitaph. What do you think all the rest of us are gonna do?



Bear


...


The real story here is in the young.  The church is losing the young women - Mo - I just put a link to a recent study on this on the "Rome Dialogue" thread -, as every more (and I suspect now that number is in a VERY strong majority of young women raised in catholic families) choose to marry outside the church.  The end result is not just the loss of that woman, but more than likely her husband AND her children.  With that "source" of future catholics cut off, it will only take a few generations until there isn't much left.  And those that ARE left, will likely be extremely conservative, further pushing the church towards a face that is simply unacceptable to both the boomers, and the more centrists of society (not to mention those with liberal mindsets...)


I do think the next papal conclave is likely to be a doozie.  ...But should the cardinals choose to elect one with a vision of the church more focused on reinvigorating Vatican II, then maybe, just maybe things could change. 


Not likely to happen given that all but about 5 of the current cardinals were appointed by JPII and B16 precisely because they are "docile", obedient, and conform unquestioningly to the vision of church and catholicism promoted by these two popes.


But honestly, I doubt it.  Even if they DID elect such a man, the Vatican and most of the church's episcopates are filled with conservatives of the highest order.  Such a liberal pope would likely be rendered ineffective quickly.  Such is the power of the back rooms of the vatican.


mo





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2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 2:14PM #14
bigbear6161
Posts: 3,693
I fear I will keep my mouth shut and only engage anonymously on Bnet, etc. under the safety of an avatar, or privately with like minded individuals.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 2:57PM #15
GodtheFather
Posts: 8,782

I go twice a year whether I like it or not...


 


 

The best lack all conviction yet the worst are filled with passionate intensity.

Yates
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 8:56AM #16
mokantx
Posts: 3,815

OK Gang


It appears the bishops have figured it out.  The problem is about PR here.  From the article:


The recent Vatican crackdown on the largest organization of U.S. nuns turned into a public relations "debacle" for the bishops, said Cardinal Sean O'Malley of Boston.


He complained that the Vatican's decision to put bishops in charge of rooting out "radical feminist" elements within the nuns' group was linked in the secular media to unrelated events, such as the bishops' investigation of the Girl Scouts, with negative consequences for the church's image.


So among their responses are two of my favorites:


The bishops' public relations campaign is still in the early stages but tentative plans include appointing a high-profile, always-on-call spokesman and creating a more active presence on Twitter and Facebook. Bishop John Wester of Salt Lake City also announced the launch of a private social network for bishops only - a sort of Facebook of the magisterium.


And this one:


Outreach efforts also include a Spanish-language video, now in production, that will take the form of a tasteful soap opera, tracing one family's interactions over generations. The drama aims to promote traditional marriage and combat rhetoric that frames gay marriage as an issue of equality, civil rights or justice, said Bishop Salvatore Cordileone of Oakland.




Sure glad they've got it figured out now, aren't you?  So, I'm wondering: will the episcopal facebook be used for fraternal correction (e.g., "Fratnet" (c)), or will be be where they go to make their guesses as to the next installment of the soap opera?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 9:04AM #17
bigbear6161
Posts: 3,693

They're really branching out with the propaganda.  First the Tested in Fire video and now facebook and soap operas.  Who said the Church heirarchy was premodern?


Seriously, it's all public image with them these days. I'm disheartened.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 9:14AM #18
mokantx
Posts: 3,815

Jun 15, 2012 -- 9:04AM, bigbear6161 wrote:


They're really branching out with the propaganda.  First the Tested in Fire video and now facebook and soap operas.  Who said the Church heirarchy was premodern?


Seriously, it's all public image with them these days. I'm disheartened.




Bear


I'd suggest this.  While my post was intended to point out the humor in all of this, I think the good news in all of this is that at least the bishops DO realize they have a bad, and ongoing PR problem.  That means they are hearing back from a lot of people, and they don't like what they're hearing.  So whether this is the best approach or not (and honestly, some of it still does make me laugh), at least they seem to be trying.


The part that most concerns me is that this kind of stuff is still just window dressing.  I really don't think most people who are on the fence, or who have left the faith, nor the general public at large, is likely to "see the light" because of the bishops new spanish-language soap opera.  And frankly, I just doubt most of these bishops are going to actually be on their private social networking program. At best, a few might, but most will appoint someone in house to monitor it for them.  I think this is window dressing, because they continue to stop short of addressing what has really cost them  their credibility.  While each of us will likely have our own set of triggers, for me it's a combination of the scandal, and in particular, their refusal to accept accountability for themselves, coupled with their approach to women.  Others may choose different triggers, but the point is that they're not addressing those really basic concerns.  And until they do, I don't think having soap operas, PR people (which by their own admission is gonna be a really expensive move at a time when dioceses are already reeling under financial burdens CAUSED in large part by their own actions) is gonna change much of anything at all.



But at least they recognize how badly the Vatican's going after the nuns is hurting them.  Of course, they don't seem inclined to back off that now, do they?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 9:25AM #19
newsjunkie
Posts: 5,741

Jun 15, 2012 -- 8:56AM, mokantx wrote:


OK Gang


It appears the bishops have figured it out.  The problem is about PR here.  From the article:


The recent Vatican crackdown on the largest organization of U.S. nuns turned into a public relations "debacle" for the bishops, said Cardinal Sean O'Malley of Boston.


He complained that the Vatican's decision to put bishops in charge of rooting out "radical feminist" elements within the nuns' group was linked in the secular media to unrelated events, such as the bishops' investigation of the Girl Scouts, with negative consequences for the church's image.


So among their responses are two of my favorites:


The bishops' public relations campaign is still in the early stages but tentative plans include appointing a high-profile, always-on-call spokesman and creating a more active presence on Twitter and Facebook. Bishop John Wester of Salt Lake City also announced the launch of a private social network for bishops only - a sort of Facebook of the magisterium.


And this one:


Outreach efforts also include a Spanish-language video, now in production, that will take the form of a tasteful soap opera, tracing one family's interactions over generations. The drama aims to promote traditional marriage and combat rhetoric that frames gay marriage as an issue of equality, civil rights or justice, said Bishop Salvatore Cordileone of Oakland.




Sure glad they've got it figured out now, aren't you?  So, I'm wondering: will the episcopal facebook be used for fraternal correction (e.g., "Fratnet" (c)), or will be be where they go to make their guesses as to the next installment of the soap opera?




I bet the latter. Nobody is more preoccupied with homosexuality that the bishops.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 9:55AM #20
bigbear6161
Posts: 3,693

Jun 15, 2012 -- 9:14AM, mokantx wrote:


Jun 15, 2012 -- 9:04AM, bigbear6161 wrote:


They're really branching out with the propaganda.  First the Tested in Fire video and now facebook and soap operas.  Who said the Church heirarchy was premodern?


Seriously, it's all public image with them these days. I'm disheartened.




Bear


I'd suggest this.  While my post was intended to point out the humor in all of this, I think the good news in all of this is that at least the bishops DO realize they have a bad, and ongoing PR problem.  That means they are hearing back from a lot of people, and they don't like what they're hearing.  So whether this is the best approach or not (and honestly, some of it still does make me laugh), at least they seem to be trying.


The part that most concerns me is that this kind of stuff is still just window dressing.  I really don't think most people who are on the fence, or who have left the faith, nor the general public at large, is likely to "see the light" because of the bishops new spanish-language soap opera.  And frankly, I just doubt most of these bishops are going to actually be on their private social networking program. At best, a few might, but most will appoint someone in house to monitor it for them.  I think this is window dressing, because they continue to stop short of addressing what has really cost them  their credibility.  While each of us will likely have our own set of triggers, for me it's a combination of the scandal, and in particular, their refusal to accept accountability for themselves, coupled with their approach to women.  Others may choose different triggers, but the point is that they're not addressing those really basic concerns.  And until they do, I don't think having soap operas, PR people (which by their own admission is gonna be a really expensive move at a time when dioceses are already reeling under financial burdens CAUSED in large part by their own actions) is gonna change much of anything at all.



But at least they recognize how badly the Vatican's going after the nuns is hurting them.  Of course, they don't seem inclined to back off that now, do they?




Mo,


Yes, I guess they are hearing negative feedback.  That is good.  I just don't sense that they care about us anymore.  They seem to want us to go away and not come back.  My triggers are the latest political shift to a sort of fascist coalition in league with evangelical protestants so that even the Girl Scouts are seen as the enemy, and nordic Gods pounding the one ring in the fires are meant to show us that siegfried is  coming wrapped in a cross.  The scandal and the crushing of theological thought in the Church only add to the waves of nausea for me.


Hopefully I'm not the only one finding the whole thing distasteful.  Sounds like I'm not alone.  I just think that the laity will sit in the pew and participate in the liturgy and think to ourselves so what.

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