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Switch to Forum Live View ... suppose you were ... Satan ... yes, God's enemy ...
2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 8:26AM #1
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,095

... so you would know that your rebellion is ill-fated from the very outset, that your final defeat is only a matter of ... time and ... cost ...


If you were Satan, and you were perfectly aware of all the above, what would you do, if you hated God badly enough (and he certainly does ...) and His most precious creatures, humans? 


Well, you would try to hold on as long as possible, and you would try to cause as much damage as possible, before your final defeat, wouldn't you?


And that is precisely what Satan does, taking advantage, most of all, of God's main "handicap": God will never show his presence, His will, His purpose so unambiguously as to encroach on human freedom.


So, for instance, Satan will try to inspire to humans, and especially to the ones who are most responsible for the Church, that God's Judgment is not impending, after all, that the world will go on indefinitely as it is, with God ruling in Heaven, but not so obviously on Earth.


What can help this diabolical plan better than a "co-eternal, co-equal, three-personal God"? 


What can help this diabolical plan better than the indefinite replacement of the ONLY Christian promise, the resurrection, with the heathen-philosophical "immortality of the soul"?


And, as is under everybody's eyes, the simple Apostolic faith was replaced, gradually but soon, at the very core of the Church, with sophisticated heathen-philosophical doctrines.


Of course, the above analysis requires that one take seriously Satan, NOT as a "metaphor", BUT simply as a personal, intelligent spiritual being, the fallen angel that has become God's enemy.


But ... there is a but: who, nowadays, especially at the very top of the Church, believes any more in the personal existence of Satan?


Very, very few ...


He explained to me the absurdity of the different philosophies which had, up to the present, taken possession of the human mind, and even deigned to confide to me several fundamental principles whose benefits and propriety it would not be appropriate for me to share with anyone.  He did not complain in any way about the bad reputation he enjoyed all over the world, assured me that he himself was the person the most interested in the destruction of superstition, and admitted to me that he had only been afraid for his own power one time, and that was the day when he had heard a preacher, more subtle than his colleagues, shout out from the pulpit:

"My dear brothers, never forget, when you hear the progress of enlightenment vaunted, that the devil's best trick is to persuade you that he doesn't exist!"


-- Charles Baudelaire, "The Generous Gambler" ("Le Joueur Généreux" Feb. 1864)



... if at all ...

Any comments?

MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 8:40AM #2
koolpoi
Posts: 6,522

Christian ideas of right and wrong have evolved over time.Perhaps the declining belief in Satan reflects the experience and reflection of the Christian community.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 8:48AM #3
Iwantamotto
Posts: 8,281

M_d_s:  so you would know that your rebellion is ill-fated from the very outset, that your final defeat is only a matter of ... time and ... cost ...


Um, 'kay.


If you were Satan, and you were perfectly aware of all the above, what would you do, if you hated God badly enough (and he certainly does ...) and His most precious creatures, humans?


Maybe Job shows us:  he stays God's employee but dicks around the (C)haracters for kicks.


My question is why would God put up with it.


Well, you would try to hold on as long as possible, and you would try to cause as much damage as possible, before your final defeat, wouldn't you?


Isn't Satan supposed to be smart?


So, for instance, Satan will try to inspire to humans, and especially to the ones who are most responsible for the Church, that God's Judgment is not impending, after all, that the world will go on indefinitely as it is, with God ruling in Heaven, but not so obviously on Earth.


Considering that's how it works, as you can see God doing less and less "hands-on" management as the bible progresses, again Satan wouldn't be lying about this.  The apocalypse isn't happening.  Let's face the apocalypse of the self:  and yearn toward the cool stuff we become once the old self is over.


Of course, the above analysis requires that one take seriously Satan, NOT as a "metaphor", BUT simply as a personal, intelligent spiritual being, the fallen angel that has become God's enemy.


Who says?  There's no evidence to support it.  Satan, in the times he actually shows up and isn't just mentioned, never really lies so much as use your OWN Freudian issues against you.  If you are cool with your issues he has no emotional blackmail ammo.


I take Satan seriously.  I just have concluded he's not nearly the kind of threat Christianity has painted him.  He is, for all intents and purposes, the ULTIMATE DEMONIZED CHARACTER in Christianity, a jerkass, to be sure, but just a character who wants you to deal with your crap per God's job description for him.  He was never an enemy and we may, in our zeal to make everyone who irritates us evil incarnate, have saved our biggest BS for this character.

Knock and the door shall open.  It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 9:22AM #4
Adelphe
Posts: 28,742

Jun 13, 2012 -- 8:26AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


... so you would know that your rebellion is ill-fated from the very outset, that your final defeat is only a matter of ... time and ... cost ...


If you were Satan, and you were perfectly aware of all the above, what would you do, if you hated God badly enough (and he certainly does ...) and His most precious creatures, humans? 


Well, you would try to hold on as long as possible, and you would try to cause as much damage as possible, before your final defeat, wouldn't you?


And that is precisely what Satan does, taking advantage, most of all, of God's main "handicap": God will never show his presence, His will, His purpose so unambiguously as to encroach on human freedom.


So, for instance, Satan will try to inspire to humans, and especially to the ones who are most responsible for the Church, that God's Judgment is not impending, after all, that the world will go on indefinitely as it is, with God ruling in Heaven, but not so obviously on Earth.



Loved it...



What can help this diabolical plan better than a "co-eternal, co-equal, three-personal God"?



...until.  Man, another Trinity thread?



What can help this diabolical plan better than the indefinite replacement of the ONLY Christian promise, the resurrection, with the heathen-philosophical "immortality of the soul"?



I know we've had this argument before (perhaps peripheral to other discussions) but they are certainly not incompatible.  iow, if you believe in "immortality of the soul", you can quite comfortably (in fact happily--indeed joyfully) believe in the "Christian's promise, the resurrection" as well--that, of course, is the ultimate in God's victory.



And, as is under everybody's eyes, the simple Apostolic faith was replaced, gradually but soon, at the very core of the Church, with sophisticated heathen-philosophical doctrines.


Of course, the above analysis requires that one take seriously Satan, NOT as a "metaphor", BUT simply as a personal, intelligent spiritual being, the fallen angel that has become God's enemy.


But ... there is a but: who, nowadays, especially at the very top of the Church, believes any more in the personal existence of Satan?


Very, very few ...


He explained to me the absurdity of the different philosophies which had, up to the present, taken possession of the human mind, and even deigned to confide to me several fundamental principles whose benefits and propriety it would not be appropriate for me to share with anyone.  He did not complain in any way about the bad reputation he enjoyed all over the world, assured me that he himself was the person the most interested in the destruction of superstition, and admitted to me that he had only been afraid for his own power one time, and that was the day when he had heard a preacher, more subtle than his colleagues, shout out from the pulpit:

"My dear brothers, never forget, when you hear the progress of enlightenment vaunted, that the devil's best trick is to persuade you that he doesn't exist!"


-- Charles Baudelaire, "The Generous Gambler" ("Le Joueur Généreux" Feb. 1864)



... if at all ...

Any comments?


MdS




I think we need to be careful we don't minimize Satan as this self-contained entity running around wreaking havoc.  That can tend to happen when one imagines him strictly and only a personal being like a man.  Satan is much bigger than that. 

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 9:22AM #5
matica
Posts: 3,067

I can't remember exactly which book it is, but there is an account of an angel protecting humanity from the almighty creator.


Who and what is the main inspiration for death, murder, torture, evil in the bible, it isn't satan, it's the almighty creator. If I were satan I'd be looking to protect this glorious creation from this genocidal, jealous, angry, hateful, spiteful creator who's main goal is to kill.


 


www.harpercollins.com/browseinside/index...

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 9:30AM #6
Eliascomes
Posts: 994

 I don't know what to say, but Satan have been here before our beginning, and his kingdom also. Death is where he lives which there's no signs of life. We doesn't know what is life until we loses it. Satan has no rationality at all; It's like he doesn't have any need to seek knowledge. His persuasiveness is a natural instinct that he acquired because there were no being that was powerless than him, until we came. But the only way that he can get to us if God permitted it. If God permitted him, he may destroy our fleshly bodies, but the soul he can't destroy, for the soul is the breath of God and which it's apart of God. So if this soul is damned to live for eternal with satan and his kingdom of angels, will not be able to be destroyed, but the souls will be living in torment for eternity. And for as Satan, he be doing what's his natural instinct is to do, and he still will be in rage for he's very unsatisfying being that will be never satisfied, even if he has it all.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 9:36AM #7
Iwantamotto
Posts: 8,281

Eliascomes:   I don't know what to say, but Satan have been here before our beginning, and his kingdom also.


That must be boring, having a kingdom but no subjects yet.


We doesn't know what is life until we loses it.


We all die.  Some of us learned to accept that faster than others.


Satan has no rationality at all


Who says?


His persuasiveness is a natural instinct that he acquired because there were no being that was powerless than him, until we came.


God, the All-Powerful, lets Satan manipulate Him into screwing with some guy down on Earth for no particular reason at all.  Clearly, you can be omnipotent and still be affected by Satan's "awesome" manipulation skills.


And for as Satan, he be doing what's his natural instinct is to do


Again, this is like buying the teenager caught with a DUI a new car ... and a case of beer.

Knock and the door shall open.  It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 9:52AM #8
johnacancienne
Posts: 7,314


M_d_s]  so you would know that your rebellion is ill-fated from the very outset, that your final defeat is only a matter of ... time and ... cost ...



Jun 13, 2012 -- 8:48AM, Iwantamotto wrote:

Um, 'kay.



If you were Satan, and you were perfectly aware of all the above, what would you do, if you hated God badly enough (and he certainly does ...) and His most precious creatures, humans?


Maybe Job shows us:  he stays God's employee but dicks around the (C)haracters for kicks.



Jun 13, 2012 -- 8:48AM, Iwantamotto wrote:

My question is why would God put up with it.



Well, you would try to hold on as long as possible, and you would try to cause as much damage as possible, before your final defeat, wouldn't you?



Jun 13, 2012 -- 8:48AM, Iwantamotto wrote:

Isn't Satan supposed to be smart?



So, for instance, Satan will try to inspire to humans, and especially to the ones who are most responsible for the Church, that God's Judgment is not impending, after all, that the world will go on indefinitely as it is, with God ruling in Heaven, but not so obviously on Earth.



Jun 13, 2012 -- 8:48AM, Iwantamotto wrote:

Considering that's how it works, as you can see God doing less and less "hands-on" management as the bible progresses, again Satan wouldn't be lying about this.  The apocalypse isn't happening.  Let's face the apocalypse of the self:  and yearn toward the cool stuff we become once the old self is over.



Of course, the above analysis requires that one take seriously Satan, NOT as a "metaphor", BUT simply as a personal, intelligent spiritual being, the fallen angel that has become God's enemy.



Jun 13, 2012 -- 8:48AM, Iwantamotto wrote:

Who says?  There's no evidence to support it.  Satan, in the times he actually shows up and isn't just mentioned, never really lies so much as use your OWN Freudian issues against you.  If you are cool with your issues he has no emotional blackmail ammo.


I take Satan seriously.  I just have concluded he's not nearly the kind of threat Christianity has painted him.  He is, for all intents and purposes, the ULTIMATE DEMONIZED CHARACTER in Christianity, a jerkass, to be sure, but just a character who wants you to deal with your crap per God's job description for him.  He was never an enemy and we may, in our zeal to make everyone who irritates us evil incarnate, have saved our biggest BS for this character.





Good answer Iwanta... I particularly like the last part. Although I don't believe in the type of Satan as described by Christians, I don't doubt that a little underling would have been employed by your god. And I doubt your god is as stupid and unaware of what's going on in his followers lives as some Christians make him out.


Look, for example the case of Job. In Job 1:6-12 you get a little insight on the picture.


One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan  also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”


Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”


Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”


“Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”


12 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”


Reading this, you see that the God of Abraham calls a staff meeting of sorts. And Satan was there. Now, if Satan had been banished from the presents of this god, and there was such a great war going on in the heavens....... A civil war, if you will, does it seem prudent to invite the enemy commander to a war council? In our own Civil War, and I've studied up on this some, I don't recall General Robert E. Lee ever sitting in on one of President Lincoln's was councils. Conversely, I can't recall ever hearing of General Grant going down into Confederate territory and sitting in on one of Jeff Davis' war meetings either. Just ain't done. So we can rule out that Satan was banished from heaven, and consider the possibility that Satan was a department head there in the Holy City. Maybe a lawyer? Maybe the Attorney General of heaven? Let's face it.... back in those days, there weren't any of the modern surveillance techniques such as we have today, and this god seems to want to prove a point to his staff...... not just Satan. So he sends ol' Satan out to test him.


This god reminds me of an old detective I knew. He never asked a question to a suspect that he didn't already have the answer to. This truly was a great investigator. For at least the last 1500 years or so, Christianity has tried to paint several pictures for the flock. The first one is that this god is a dottering old dolt who has no idea of what's going on in his world he created. He's oblivious..... out of touch with his constituents. And they do this all while asserting that this god is really on the job... omni everything, ya know? And the religion has promoted this underling Satan to a god-like status being able possess the minds of people and make them do things they probably (according to tradition) would never do on their own.


For reasons unknown to us, there really isn't much said about Satan after Job until you get to the New Testaments. I mean we hear about him testing A&E, then we read about him testing old Job, and then silence until the "new and improved" Satan comes into the picture in the NT. Well, I sorta have my suspicions about this. Could it possibly be... just maybe.... it's a contrivance of the church to hold this new bogey man over people's heads to keep them in conformity to the earthly rules established in Christianity? A mind control of epic proportions meant only to keep followers in tow, and scare enough new followers into not only joining, but conforming? I believe that's the true answer to the age old story. No wars, no final conflict, and no heavenly mind control... just that of the all too human, power hungry church leadership; the one established by man and tweaked down through the years to keep the various factions (denominations) at odds with each other. Otherwise, there's be only one church, one set of rules to play by, and the leadership would not have set up various dogma for folks to abide by. IOW, this final conflict is a ruse set up by humans... not your god.




Just saying.................

It isn't about waiting for the storms to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 10:05AM #9
Iwantamotto
Posts: 8,281

Good answer Iwanta... I particularly like the last part.


Well, I got tired of Christianity telling me that God/Jesus is so loving and forgiving and yet Satan is always kept on the sh-- list.  If Christianity wants to prove to me how loving God/Jesus is, then I want to see the Ultimate Bad Guy forgiven or apologized to for calling him a villain when he isn't.


I mean we hear about him testing A&E


We hear this in the NT.  Satan is technically not even in that story.


Not that it matters, 'cause the serpent wasn't lying at any rate.


Could it possibly be... just maybe.... it's a contrivance of the church to hold this new bogey man over people's heads to keep them in conformity to the earthly rules established in Christianity?


I think so.  What's even sadder is that people listened to it blindly without asking how an omnipotent deity can't casually handle such a supreme dick.  It should be like flicking away a fly for God.


No wars, no final conflict, and no heavenly mind control... just that of the all too human, power hungry church leadership


One reason I don't attend church anymore is that I realized that no one ever really supported "opponents", even if the "opponents" had more evidence.  God amazingly enough always supported whatever they did.  I got tired of such self-serving BS.

Knock and the door shall open.  It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 12:00PM #10
Eliascomes
Posts: 994

Jun 13, 2012 -- 9:36AM, Iwantamotto wrote:


Eliascomes:   I don't know what to say, but Satan have been here before our beginning, and his kingdom also.


That must be boring, having a kingdom but no subjects yet.


 In the testament of Solomon speaks of the kingdom of Satan, but this testament was refused to be enter into the Holy Bible. God awayhas His angels and Satan away had his also. this talk about all of demons building the Temple. I don't know if they were speaking of real demons or men possessed by demons and Solomon was able to see them like Jesus was able.


www.esotericarchives.com/solomon/testame...


We doesn't know what is life until we loses it.


We all die.  Some of us learned to accept that faster than others.


  She can tell you how fast she accepted it.


youtu.be/5HbtoX3Q5OI


Satan has no rationality at all


Who says?


 I know that Satan look real good on the Late Late shows, but the creators of these films had deceived many.


His persuasiveness is a natural instinct that he acquired because there were no being that was powerless than him, until we came.


God, the All-Powerful, lets Satan manipulate Him into screwing with some guy down on Earth for no particular reason at all.  Clearly, you can be omnipotent and still be affected by Satan's "awesome" manipulation skills.


 Remember satan doesn't have any knowledge, he just move by impulses. When God need to purify someone or thing, He just call on satan. Satan doesn't even know that he is doing God's will. Only thing that satan sees is a opportunity to destroy; But satan doesn't know that he's destroying himself.


 Here's a clip of satan in the flesh.


youtu.be/J6iQKNOjhVQ




And for as Satan, he be doing what's his natural instinct is to do


Again, this is like buying the teenager caught with a DUI a new car ... and a case of beer.





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